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Targaryen Succession


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If we follow a purely legal line of succession based on a couple assumptions, Daella's line (and then Rhae's line) are next in line for the throne after Shireen. The first assumption is that Robert's claim comes from Rhaelle Targaryen, establishing the precedent that claim can in fact pass through the female line at this point in history. Prince Duncan the Small gave up his claim, and thus any hypothetical children of Jenny are passed over. Aerys the Mad's line are presumably attainted in order for the claim to pass to Rhaelle's line.

Then Aerion's son Maegor was passed over, negating his hypothetical descendants. Ditto Daeron's daughter Vaella. The claim of Jaeherys' line and Rhaelle's line comes from Aegon the Unlikely, but there's no remaining descendants with a claim. Next comes Maekar's older daughter Daella, then her sister Rhae. We know both of them married and had children, but we don't know who they married or who their children became. The issue of Maekar's siblings predeceased his ascension, aside from aforementioned Maegor. That covers all descendant of Daeron the Good.

The next lineage we can trace is through Maron Martell and Daenerys Targaryen. We know that the modern branch of House Martell descends from their line. Aegon VI's claim is reestablished here through his mother Elia's ancestry. We're not given how far back Manfrey Martell branched off from the main line, but he is listed as Doran's cousin, not distant relation, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and include him.

Aegon the Unworthy legitimized the great bastards on his deathbed. Daemon Blackfyre is the only one to have known issue, so his primogeniture would come next, but the Blackfyre line would have been attainted after the First Blackfyre Rebellion.

Daeron the Young Dragon died without issue, as did Baelor the Blessed, and their sister Rhaena the septa. Elaena Targaryen first child Viserys Plumm is the ancestor of the modern members of House Plumm as well as Brown Ben. It is unknown if her son with Ronnel Penrose is ancestor to the modern members of the family, we'll leave them out. Daena the Defiant's only issue was aforementioned Daemon Blackfyre.

That covers descendants of Viserys II and Aegon III. Their sister Visenya died without issue. Rhaenyra was the only child of Viserys I and his first wife to have issue. With his second wife, he had Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron. Aegon and Helaena married each other, but all three of their children died without issue, as did Aemond One-Eye and Daeron the Daring.

Descendants of Viserys I are covered, now we can examine the primogeniture of Jaehaerys the Conciliator. Jaehaerys and his sister/wife Alysanne had Aegon, Aemon, Daella, Gaemon, Valerion, Baelon, Vaegon, Alyssa, Maegelle, Viserra, Sarea, and Gael.

Aegon died without issue. Aemon's daughter Rhaenys married Corlys Sea Snake Velaryon, and had Laenor Velaryon, who had Alyn Oakenfist Velaryon, ancestor of the modern branch. Corlys and Rhaenys's daughter Laena had Baela and Rhaena with Daemon Targaryen. Baela married Alyn Velaryon reuniting that line, from which the modern branch of House Velaryon descends. Rhaena had six daughters with Garmund Hightower, though House Hightower does not descend from this branch. Aeryn died without issue, Gaemon, and Valerion died without issue.

Baelon married his sister Alyssa and had Viserys I, Daemon, and Aegon. Viserys' issue has been covered, and there's no information about Aegon. Daemon the Rogue Prince was father to Laena Velaryon's children as well as Rhaenyra Targaryen's children, ancestor to the modern branch of both families. Vaegon was a maester and had no issue.

Daella married Rodrik Arryn and had Aemma Arryn who married Viserys I, reuniting that claim. Maegelle became a septa and had no issue. Viserra died without issue, as did Gael. Saera left King's Landing for Lys and may have had issue, but that is a big maybe.

Aegon the Conqueror had two sons. Second son Maegor died without issue. Aenys I married Alyssa Velaryon and had Rhaena, Aegon, Viserys, Jaehaerys, Alysanne, and Vaella. Rhaena and Aegon married each other and had Aerea and Rhalla. We don't know if either of them ever married. Viserys and Vaella both died without issue.

We'll set aside Tommen and Myrcella as bastards. To the best of my understanding, that gives us this order of succession after Robert for the descendants of Aegon the Conqueror (Including characters who were alive at Robert's death, characters deceased since then are crossed out):

  1. Stannis Baratheon
  2. Shireen Baratheon
  3. Daella's primogeniture
  4. Rhae's primogeniture
  5. Doran Martell
  6. Arianne Martell
  7. Quentyn Martell
  8. Trystane Martell
  9. Oberyn Martell
  10. Aegon Targaryen
  11. Manfrey Martell
  12. Philip Plumm
  13. Dennis Plumm
  14. Peter Plumm
  15. Harwyn Hardstone Plumm
  16. Brown Ben Plumm
  17. Monford Velaryon
  18. Monterys Velaryon
  19. Rhaena's primogeniture

It feels like this list should be longer, but this is, to the best of my knowledge, everything we know. This was my best stab at the whole thing, using male favored primogeniture.

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5 hours ago, Shireen Purratheon said:

 

Aegon the Unworthy legitimized the great bastards on his deathbed. Daemon Blackfyre is the only one to have known issue, so his primogeniture would come next, but Maelys the Monstrous was the last Blackfyre.

 

 

even if there where still blackfyre's they would have been attained after the first blackfyre rebellion.

other then that i think you did a good job with they information that was avalible.

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5 hours ago, direpupy said:

even if there where still blackfyre's they would have been attained after the first blackfyre rebellion.

other then that i think you did a good job with they information that was avalible.

Thanks! I don't know why that didn't occur to me, I'll add that to the OP.

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@Shireen Purratheon

I'm not sure whether the lines of Vaella and Maegor (if existent) would really be considered to have no claims. That would depend, I think, on the situation. We know that Princess Rhaenys' claim did not disappear when Jaehaerys I chose Baelon as his heir in 92 AC, nor does it seem as if Aerea/Rhalla and Rhaena's claims disappeared when Jaehaerys I took the throne (there are those nine lesser claimants at the Great Council in 101 AC, after all).

The same would go for any children of Duncan and Jenny, although his morganatic marriage makes it very likely that those were actually permanently barred from the succession (but even such a thing could be unmade under the right circumstances).

I think Selwyn and Brienne are descendants of Daella and Dunk, so a similar thing might actually happened there. Dunk certainly was too lowborn to ever father a king.

But I'm reasonably convinced that Daenora, Maegor, Vaella, Duncan's children (if he had any), and Rhae and her children either died at Summerhall or were already dead by then.

We actually do know that Quentyn Martell (and thus Doran, Oberyn, Arianne, and Trystane, too) are direct descendants of Maron Martell and Daenerys Targaryen. Manfrey Martell most likely, too, considering that he isn't described as a distant cousin (however, he seems to be a second cousin considering that nothing suggests Doran's mother had any siblings aside from Lewyn who most likely had no legitimate offspring).

We can be reasonably sure that Ronnel Penrose had Targaryen ancestors himself because Aelinor Penrose (who isn't descended from Elaena Targaryen) was a cousin of Aerys I on the Targaryen side. It is therefore very likely that one of Rhaena's daughter by Garmund Hightower married into House Penrose. Whether the present day Penroses still have Targaryen blood is unclear, though. But I'd be reasonably confident that they have.

The Penrose genealogy is pretty convoluted, by the way. The best way to resolve everything is actually to assume that Ronnel Penrose was actually the father of Aelinor Penrose (a child of his first marriage) before he took Elaena to wife. His successor as Lord Penrose would have been a full brother of Aelinor rather than Elaena's son Robin Penrose because we know that Fireball killed many sons of 'Lady Penrose' during the First Blackfyre Rebellion who couldn't have been Elaena's sons - because she had only one Penrose son.

The main line of House Plumm seems to be definitely a Targaryen cadet branch - a fact that might become relevant in the future, actually.

In general nobody in Westeros seems to really believe that Aerys' descendants have been attainted. Should Aegon/Dany/Jon die without issue the throne might be offered to the Targaryen cousin with the noblest blood not necessarily the Targaryen cousin with best claim via primogeniture or proximity.

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17 minutes ago, Lady Lia said:

As a side issue: do we know for certain that the present Hightowers aren't descended from Rhaena? I was under the impression that that was still unclear.

That is unclear. But if Garmund was the Lord of Oldtown, eldest son of Lord Ormund Hightower who died in the Dance, then his eldest daughter might have succeeded him as Lady of Oldtown and Lord Leyton might descend from her. Even if not, there is certainly a chance that one of Rhaena's daughters was married to the new Lord Hightower. Cousin marriages are possible, after all.

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Thank you for your comments!

In regards to Garmund Hightower, I just assumed he wasn't the main branch because it never said lord or future lord or anything. But if one of the descendants of Rhaena and Garmund married back into the line that gives Leyton and all of his children, thus Mace and Alerie's children, dragonblood. And between the six daughters and all their descendants, the way those families marry and have kids, probably every noble house in the Reach has a claim.

If House Penrose does still descend from Elaena, then that would place the unnamed elderly Lord Penrose and his deceased son Ser Cortnay behind Ben Plumm and before Lord Velaryon. If House Penrose already had Targaryen blood before that as you suggest, @Lord Varys, then they could come anywhere below Brown Ben, or be part of Rhaena's primogeniture.

I'd love to know more about all these people whose names we have but fates we don't know. I didn't consider that the claims of Maegor and Vaella could still be valid, but without knowing if they had children, we have to assume there's nobody surviving to press a claim from that line. But if Maegor had descendants, that primogeniture would come after Shireen, then Vaella's line if there were descendants there, then Daella's line. At points like that are when proximity and primogeniture start to get muddled with each other. Maegor comes before any descendant of Aegon V through primogeniture, but as Aegon's line sat the throne, we have to assume we should look there for claims first.

On the other hand, between six daughters of Rhaena and Garmund, there must be at least a couple scions of those lines, and that could get really complicated and I'd like to see that family tree.

There's all kinds of might makes right arguments that could be made about how Robert's claim was through conquest and not through blood, plus how we're not throwing out the claims of Aegon/Dany/Jon because they come from Aerys' line, but I wanted to explore it like a maester at the Citadel trying to parse where any other claims might be. At a great council, I'm sure Trystane Martell could get more support than the third daughter of Rhae's third daughter who married a hedge knight.

ETA: Editing OP to take out the part where I wasn't sure if Doran's line came from Maron and Daenerys.

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@Shireen Purratheon

The problem is that we don't have any ideas about the recent marriages involving Houses Penrose and Plumm. No Plumms have recently married into House Lannister, that we do know, however. That suggests that the Plumms didn't exactly through the whole Ossifer-Viserys scandal unscathed. Aegon the Unworthy seems to have taken both their money and their honor, making them not exactly very good marriage prospects for the richer houses of the West.

And the Penroses certainly must have been important during the reign of Daeron II but they clearly are no longer. A case can be made that the Dondarrions also descend from one of Rhaena's daughters, explaining why it came to be that Baelor Breakspear was married to Jena Dondarrion. If she was a cousin of Baelor's like Aelinor Penrose was this could make sense. Else she would have been a bride too far beneath the Prince of Dragonstone.

The fact that we don't know in which houses Daella and Rhae married into and how the fortunes of the Penroses and the Plumms changed over the years makes it very difficult to make a good guess where those people would stand in any line of succession. Royal blood is most important but noble birth as well.

The other problem there is also whether one would go through primogeniture or proximity. Say, comes a great-great-grandson of Maekar I through the elder branch before a (great-)grandson through a younger branch? We don't know that, actually. Jaehaerys I and two Great Councils favored proximity over primogeniture in such scenarios. And with the Targaryen obsession of the purity of royal blood being actually closer related to the king you are descended from might be considered more important than through which line you are descended.

Garmund's name is reasonably close to 'Ormund' to guess that he was Ormund's son but that is hardly good evidence. However, we also know that Ormund's children were still young and back in Oldtown during the Dance (unlike Prince Daeron) so it sounds not unlikely that Rhaena would have been married to his eldest a few years later. She could easily have been only 1-3 years older than he was.

There are actually some hints that the Hightowers might have Targaryen blood. Lynesse apparently resembles Daenerys, Alerie Hightower Tyrell has silver hair, and Archmaester Marwyn (who might either be a Hightower himself or at least a Hightower bastard) also indicates he has special blood (as Maester Aemon did).

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@Lord Varys it'd be a lot easier to sort all this out with more information, you're absolutely right. The arguments made could be fascinating if we knew the whole picture.

I hadn't given a thought to the Great Councils favoring proximity over primogeniture, I was trying to stick to standard Andal male favored primogeniture as best as I could, but the fetish for purity of blood is definitely a really good point. That could mean a lot for a Velaryon claim coming before a Plumm, say. Or, on the other hand, if House Plumm isn't exactly House Plumm anymore and Viserys was indeed Targaryen on both sides, that could potentially strengthen a Plumm claim above the Martells.

You could refute that by referencing the obvious decline of House Plumm in recent years, and the Martells have far nobler blood than the Plumms. A Great Council would be fascinating in sorting out all these claims. And how would Selwyn and Brienne Tarth fit into this if they are descended from Daella?

I'd love to see the genealogy of the Reach like we got for Houses Targaryen, Lannister, and Stark. That might help sort out the Hightower/Targaryen connection.

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2 hours ago, Shireen Purratheon said:

I hadn't given a thought to the Great Councils favoring proximity over primogeniture, I was trying to stick to standard Andal male favored primogeniture as best as I could, but the fetish for purity of blood is definitely a really good point.

Purity of blood comes up explicitly when Lord Lyman Beesbury argues in favor of Rhaenyra Targaryen during the Small Council session after her father died. His point is basically that Alicent's children are all half-breeds whereas Rhaenyra inherited Targaryen blood from both her father and her mother Aemma (who was the daughter of Princess Daella). So this actually was an argument that carried some weight.

And it might actually be that Jaehaerys I chose Baelon over Rhaenys because he had married his son to his eldest child, Princess Alyssa, making Baelon's branch the purest Targaryen branch yet alive, while Rhaenys didn't inherit all that much Targaryen blood from her mother's side (Jocelyn Baratheon was a daughter of Alyssa Velaryon who had Targaryen blood herself but not as much as Baelon and Alyssa.

But I think this issue is much more interesting when we are talking about more distant kin. A grandson or younger son is inevitably closer related to the king and has potentially less inferior blood in his veins than a great-grandson or even a great-great-grandson. Jaehaerys II and Aerys II kept their branch of the royal line pure but their cousins of various degree didn't follow the same marriage policy.

It is pretty evident, I think, that the incest was only not continued by the Targaryen-Baratheons after they took the throne because Robert hated them so much. I'd not be surprised one bit if Renly had married Myrcella or Shireen under different circumstance and I'm actually pretty sure the incest would have been revived under Robert's successor. Joff would have married his children to each other or at least to other close kin.

2 hours ago, Shireen Purratheon said:

That could mean a lot for a Velaryon claim coming before a Plumm, say. Or, on the other hand, if House Plumm isn't exactly House Plumm anymore and Viserys was indeed Targaryen on both sides, that could potentially strengthen a Plumm claim above the Martells.

We also have to keep in mind that there are a lot of interesting historical precedents in the Andal kingdoms. We know that among the early Arryn kings a brother followed a brother, that a Lord Hightower set aside his wife and the mother of his children in favor of an Andal princess, that the Reach once had a Queen Regnant, and so on.

Andal succession is not necessarily the same everywhere.

The Martells most likely could face the problem that they are not exactly all that popular outside of Dorne, making it all but impossible that they would be chosen at a Great Council. The Penroses look to irrelevant, the Plumms might be impoverished and be considered bastards behind their back. The Velaryon name still carries a lot of weight but their blood ties with the Targaryens lie far back in the past.

In the wake of the Baratheon regime the Tarths could actually have the best shot. Lord Selwyn seems to be a well-liked guy.

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You could refute that by referencing the obvious decline of House Plumm in recent years, and the Martells have far nobler blood than the Plumms. A Great Council would be fascinating in sorting out all these claims. And how would Selwyn and Brienne Tarth fit into this if they are descended from Daella?

If they are Daella's descendants by Dunk as I suspect they are they might no longer have any claims to the Iron Throne just as Jenny's children most likely no longer had any claims. But it is difficult to say when they are no other claimants around. Nor do we know whether Dunk was still just a landless nobody if/when he married Princess Daella or whether he was a lord in his own right at this point. He certainly could have held lands before he joined the KG.

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I'd love to see the genealogy of the Reach like we got for Houses Targaryen, Lannister, and Stark. That might help sort out the Hightower/Targaryen connection.

I guess we'll get more hints in that direction. Some Penroses might show up in TWoW, and the Hightowers and Tyrells will show up, too.

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@Shireen Purratheon

This is very good, I would think though Robert Arryn would come before Rhaena's offspring, He is in fact a direct descendant of Aegon I after all and the marriage his claim comes from was one generation ahead of Princess Rhaena's

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Guest jasonothegreat
On 7/1/2016 at 6:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

It is pretty evident, I think, that the incest was only not continued by the Targaryen-Baratheons after they took the throne because Robert hated them so much. I'd not be surprised one bit if Renly had married Myrcella or Shireen under different circumstance and I'm actually pretty sure the incest would have been revived under Robert's successor. Joff would have married his children to each other or at least to other close kin.

I am almost certain incest stopped entirely after Aerys was dethroned. The purity of the bloodline concept comes from Old Valyria and I doubt that without a Valyrian king they would continue such marriages, The only reason why the Targaryens were allowed to continue this under the faith's authority is that it was considered a herald of their past and a divine marriage as they were seen as superior Dragon riding demi-gods with all power. 

Incest throughout the entire series as been put down as horrid and "satanic" and I doubt that the Faith would allow more incest marriages to occur in the Royal line.  As well lets look at the last two lasting people born of incest in the Histories of Westeros, Aerys II and Rhaegar, Aerys the second is remembered as a maniacal madman who burned everyone and was obsessed with Dragons while Rhaegar has been remembered as a cruel raper who kidnapped a fair northern maiden and killed her, it doesn't matter what actually happened, history is written by the Victors and Robert won.

 

"Every time a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin" 

This is directly stemmed from the fact that incest in Planetos affects more the mental stability then physical appearance. Taragaryens are either mad or great in the eyes of the Westerosi and history has painted the last two mad due to inces.

incest isn't a part of Westerosi culture and is seen as horrible and ungodly, Now that both Targaryens and Dragons are gone, their doesn't seem to be much reason for incest to continue. The Baratheon line isn't Valyrian like their predecessors, even their known Targaryen marriages (into the direct line) weren't incest born Targaryens. in fact, you'd have to go to Orys Baratheon's great grandfather (If he is a Targ Bastard) to find incest in their line. 

The Baratheon reign was the beginning of the Westerosi reign over Westeros and with that their traditions are now more important than the odd Valyrian ones that their Kings practiced for almost three hundred years. The only incest we will see in the Baratheon line if any would be marrying cousins to affirm an alliance. 

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@jasonothegreat

It is just an idea. I don't know what would have happened. But I can think that royal incest easily could have been revived in an attempt to give the new dynasty more legitimacy by adapting more of the royal customs that were prevalent amongst the Targaryens as well as a pragmatic means to control the female lines. As soon as there was an especially fertile Targaryen-Baratheon king the issue what to do with the many children would have arisen. Allowing too many princesses to marry into noble houses could have had a devastating effect, especially with the precedent of the successful usurpation of Robert Baratheon in mind.

Neither the Faith nor the lords could actually object against such incestuous marriages. If the Targaryen kings could have done it so could the descendants of the Targaryens. And (legally) Robert's children and brothers were as much descended from the Targaryen kings of old as Viserys and Dany were.

Incest wasn't practiced among the Baratheons, true, but Jocelyn Baratheon married her nephew Prince Aemon in an incestuous marriage and they were of Valyrian descent through Orys Baratheon and Aerion Targaryen.

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8 hours ago, jasonothegreat said:

@Shireen Purratheon

This is very good, I would think though Robert Arryn would come before Rhaena's offspring, He is in fact a direct descendant of Aegon I after all and the marriage his claim comes from was one generation ahead of Princess Rhaena's

It was my understanding that the Arryns did not still have any Targaryen blood in their veins. Daella Targaryen, a daughter of Jaehaerys the Conciliator, married Lord Rodrik Arryn. They had one daughter, Aemma Arryn, and Daella died in childbirth. Aemma married Viserys I and had one surviving child, Rhaenyra Targaryen, before dying giving birth to a son who would die the next day.

Jeyne Arryn was already Lady of the Vale during the Great Council of 101, meaning a Targaryen descendant of that line could not have inherited the Vale.

It's not out of the question that a descendant of Rhaena and Garmund married an Arryn, but I don't think they have a claim that could have precedent over that.

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7 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Nice job!  I have a question.  Where would any legitimate descendant of Bloodraven fit in here if he had one?  If anywhere? BR was legitimized and though sent to the Watch never attainted that I know of.  

If Brynden Bloodravenhad legitimate descendants running around somewhere, they would come after the Martell line, but above the Plumm line. 

Aegor Bittersteel would come before him, but I'll make the assumption that his line would be attainted due to his part in the Blackfyre Rebellions. 

Mya Rivers is the oldest legitimized daughter, so her line would come next. After this comes Gwenys Rivers' line, then Shiera Seastar's. 

We're told that BR and Shiera weren't married, so if they had descendants together, they couldn't inherit. Shiera in fact never married, we're told, so that counts her out. It's not out of the question for a legitimized bastard of that line to exist, but I would call it a very long shot.

We don't know what happens to Mya or Gwenys, either of them having legitimate descendants would be far more likely, I'd wager. 

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13 hours ago, Shireen Purratheon said:

It was my understanding that the Arryns did not still have any Targaryen blood in their veins. Daella Targaryen, a daughter of Jaehaerys the Conciliator, married Lord Rodrik Arryn. They had one daughter, Aemma Arryn, and Daella died in childbirth. Aemma married Viserys I and had one surviving child, Rhaenyra Targaryen, before dying giving birth to a son who would die the next day.

Jeyne Arryn was already Lady of the Vale during the Great Council of 101, meaning a Targaryen descendant of that line could not have inherited the Vale.

It's not out of the question that a descendant of Rhaena and Garmund married an Arryn, but I don't think they have a claim that could have precedent over that.

I always presumed that they did still have some Targaryen blood at the least as Rhaegel Targaryen married an Arryn and had three children at that time, and it seems common in that generation for the Princes to marry into houses with lesser Targaryen blood (The Penroses and possibly the Dondarrions.) I guess Robert Arryn's claim will be shown when GRRM finally releases his "Grrmarillion" of the Targaryens 

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26 minutes ago, jasonothegreat said:

I always presumed that they did still have some Targaryen blood at the least as Rhaegel Targaryen married an Arryn and had three children at that time, and it seems common in that generation for the Princes to marry into houses with lesser Targaryen blood (The Penroses and possibly the Dondarrions.) I guess Robert Arryn's claim will be shown when GRRM finally releases his "Grrmarillion" of the Targaryens 

It's definitely not out of the question, but the link would be, to my understanding, a link that we're not currently aware of. I definitely like the idea of Robert Arryn having a drop of dragonblood, but it wouldn't come from Daella's marriage to Rodrik.

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Guest jasonothegreat
On 7/5/2016 at 0:47 PM, Shireen Purratheon said:

It's definitely not out of the question, but the link would be, to my understanding, a link that we're not currently aware of. I definitely like the idea of Robert Arryn having a drop of dragonblood, but it wouldn't come from Daella's marriage to Rodrik.

That I agree, we do though have plenty of Targaryen girls and even Targaryen boys who have no determined partners. LP Jeyne the Maid I believe might just have married the Aegon Targaryen we hear so little about, as I believe that is the only likely case for Targaryen blood to reappear after Queen Aemma Arryn 

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