Bran, Bloodraven and the Nights King

[aryagonnakill#2]

17 hours ago, The Yung Wulf said:

Was there a 3ER before Bloodraven? As far as I can tell, he's the first "all seeing warg/greenseer" ...right?

 

2 hours ago, Count Winter said:

Don't think so... which is quite strange in a way. Was Bloodraven the most powerful greenseer to date?

There have been many greenseers in the past.  When the cotf were more numerous there were more than 1 greenseer at a time.  As their numbers dwindled it seems like it got reduced to 1 at a time, and eventually they may have had to start bringing humans north, but there has always been a greenseer, or else who taught BR?  It's possible there was a gap and average cotf could teach BR enough and being a wise old man he was over time able to figure out the rest.

[xjlxking]

I am 100% certain that Bran is meant to warg into the Night King.

its weird that the WW/others suddenly start to wage a war, it's not like they know about westeros politics. It's more likely that something triggered them... In the books mance claims they opened a lot of graves in search for the horn of J. However I think that Bloodraven became weak and his hold over the Nights King was removed

 

[wolfsbae]

7 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

I am 100% certain that Bran is meant to warg into the Night King.

I really like the idea of this. It would probably result in Bran's death, too.

[JMJ]

13 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

In an interview, Isaac said that Bran and Benjen gave each other long looks saying goodbye because they knew that they would be seeing each other again soon, fighting for the living.

Which almost certainly means after the Wall is felled so that Benjen can come south again, and perhaps home.

Here's the quote re the Wall coming down:

Referring to  the statement, If Bran reenters the Seven Kingdoms, might it allow him and his army to get past the Wall as well?

"That’s what I’ve been thinking! If Bran goes through the Wall, then can the White Walkers come through? That might be a difficult decision to make. That could be the end of Bran. Or maybe it just means that Bran needs to get through the Wall very quickly. Run!

To me, this sounds like Isaac skirting the question, which I think is fair to conclude that Bran bringing down the wall is a real possibility. Moreover, as far as the quote about Benjen and his looks:

"this kind of knowing between the both of them that they will meet again sometime soon and it will be in much less comfortable circumstances. And so I thought that was something really interesting, saying goodbye to Benjen but only to know that we’re going to see each other soon for the great war."

To me, this says nothing about Benjen fighting on the side of the living. In fact, it seems to have been left purposefully vague.

 

[ErasmusF]

17 hours ago, ssls6 said:

Thanks O'branma

Classic. 

I think the Wall needs to come down to defeat the Night's King. That might be revealed to Bran in a vision. He is currently located at a Weirwood, so early next season would be a good time for him to discover that. More than likely, he would have a vision, and then when he awakens just say something cryptic like "in order to beat the NK, we'll have to do something drastic."

[xjlxking]

He minute the wall was introduced we all assumed the enemy would eventually eithere pass or destroy it.

 

[Trump the Builder]

On 6/30/2016 at 4:46 PM, Count Winter said:

What has he then actualy been doing in his cave all these years? Only waiting for Bran to show up? There must be more then just that i hope...

im sure he was doing whatever else it is that the 3ER does... trying to help out the just cause, keeping tabs on the world, etc... but i feel like this was a part of his destiny and he knew it

[The Yung Wulf]

On 7/1/2016 at 11:38 AM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

There have been many greenseers in the past.  When the cotf were more numerous there were more than 1 greenseer at a time.  As their numbers dwindled it seems like it got reduced to 1 at a time, and eventually they may have had to start bringing humans north, but there has always been a greenseer, or else who taught BR?  It's possible there was a gap and average cotf could teach BR enough and being a wise old man he was over time able to figure out the rest.

Was BR taught? If you refer back to 'Tales of Dunk and Egg' it would seem that BR was already a very powerful Greenseer before he went North to become the LC of the NW. He was the Hand of the king, effectively ruling over Westeros while Aerys I and Maekar I were ruling. At that time, people were still saying "He sees with 1000 eyes and 1" and it was pretty well known that he used sorcery.

[tugela]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 9:01 AM, Net-Viper X said:

He already screwed over the CotF and Bloodraven by sneaking back into treevision while Bloodraven was sleeping and getting himself marked and all of them killed. Now he is going to do the same to Westeros without even giving it a thought. I hope the selfish little shit get caught by zombies and eaten before he can cross the wall and screw Westeros, but no way will that happen.

If he actually fights the Nights King and wins somehow, that would be enough cheese to constipate the entire population of Westeros, so that's probably what will happen in the show.

To be fair, Bloodraven did not give him enough explanation. The obvious thing to do would explain the Bran WHY he should or shouldn't do something, so that Bran understood the reason. But he didn't do that, like most of the characters in the show.

When you are teaching someone new techniques or technologies, the first thing you should be doing before anything else is explaining the risks and dangers. Only then do you give them access, so that they don't do something stupid because they don't know any better. It is pointless lecturing someone to not to get too close to the cutter when it is working after they have sliced their hand off. That is basically what Bloodraven did, not once, but repeatedly. He is a terrible teacher! Safety first people.

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 9:15 AM, JMJ said:

Here's the quote re the Wall coming down:

Referring to  the statement, If Bran reenters the Seven Kingdoms, might it allow him and his army to get past the Wall as well?

"That’s what I’ve been thinking! If Bran goes through the Wall, then can the White Walkers come through? That might be a difficult decision to make. That could be the end of Bran. Or maybe it just means that Bran needs to get through the Wall very quickly. Run!

To me, this sounds like Isaac skirting the question, which I think is fair to conclude that Bran bringing down the wall is a real possibility. Moreover, as far as the quote about Benjen and his looks:

"this kind of knowing between the both of them that they will meet again sometime soon and it will be in much less comfortable circumstances. And so I thought that was something really interesting, saying goodbye to Benjen but only to know that we’re going to see each other soon for the great war."

To me, this says nothing about Benjen fighting on the side of the living. In fact, it seems to have been left purposefully vague.

 

Unlikely. Because Benjen would have told him. Unless everyone is still doing what everyone appears to do on the show, which is to fail to properly communicate critical information to people who need to know.

How much more stupid can all these people get? It is a wonder they can rule anything with all that bumbling and poor management.

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 8:47 AM, xjlxking said:

I am 100% certain that Bran is meant to warg into the Night King.

its weird that the WW/others suddenly start to wage a war, it's not like they know about westeros politics. It's more likely that something triggered them... In the books mance claims they opened a lot of graves in search for the horn of J. However I think that Bloodraven became weak and his hold over the Nights King was removed

 

Magic horns were traditionally used by Valyerians to control dragons, and I suspect the real purpose of the horn Mance was looking was to do that, and that is why he wants it. Legend has it that there is a dragon under Winterfell, and there are lots of unique features about the site that suggest it may be true.

Remember, there are a LOT of parallels between Mance Raydar and Prince Rhaegar (even the names sound kind of similar if you say them fast), mirroring the tale of Bael the Bard. When Mance is in Winterfell under glamor, he spends a lot of time down in the crypts for no apparent reason. My guess is that it is time spent at Lyanna's grave. Maybe he already has the horn and was looking for the dragon. There is a theory that Mance actually is Rhaegar, under a glamor. Rhaegar is supposed to be dead at the Trident, but that person may have been someone glamored to look like Rhaegar using ruby magic, thereby allowing Rhaegar to escape and still be alive in the story. Rubies are constantly being mentioned whenever the Trident incident is discussed, so it has to mean something that is not obvious. And we know that rubies are used to glamor people.

TV Rhaegar is apparently dead, since the lord of bones mechanic from the books was not used on the show. My guess is that on the TV show, Rhaegar will be the Night King. In fact, it may turn out that Mance is actually a Night King style character in the books too, eventually leading the re-unification of that story line in both media as well. Maybe. He has an affinity for Jon because he knows that Jon is his son. Otherwise he would have had him killed immediately, and surprisingly he doesn't do that even though the other wildlings want Jon dead.

[CrypticWeirwood]

34 minutes ago, tugela said:

TV Rhaegar is apparently dead, since the lord of bones mechanic from the books was not used on the show. My guess is that on the TV show, Rhaegar will be the Night King. In fact, it may turn out that Mance is actually a Night King style character in the books too, eventually leading the re-unification of that story line in both media as well. Maybe. He has an affinity for Jon because he knows that Jon is his son. Otherwise he would have had him killed immediately, and surprisingly he doesn't do that even though the other wildlings want Jon dead.

Everyone will spit if George gives us Darth Rhaegar.

[xjlxking]

53 minutes ago, tugela said:

Magic horns were traditionally used by Valyerians to control dragons, and I suspect the real purpose of the horn Mance was looking was to do that, and that is why he wants it. Legend has it that there is a dragon under Winterfell, and there are lots of unique features about the site that suggest it may be true.

Remember, there are a LOT of parallels between Mance Raydar and Prince Rhaegar (even the names sound kind of similar if you say them fast), mirroring the tale of Bael the Bard. When Mance is in Winterfell under glamor, he spends a lot of time down in the crypts for no apparent reason. My guess is that it is time spent at Lyanna's grave. Maybe he already has the horn and was looking for the dragon. There is a theory that Mance actually is Rhaegar, under a glamor. Rhaegar is supposed to be dead at the Trident, but that person may have been someone glamored to look like Rhaegar using ruby magic, thereby allowing Rhaegar to escape and still be alive in the story. Rubies are constantly being mentioned whenever the Trident incident is discussed, so it has to mean something that is not obvious. And we know that rubies are used to glamor people.

TV Rhaegar is apparently dead, since the lord of bones mechanic from the books was not used on the show. My guess is that on the TV show, Rhaegar will be the Night King. In fact, it may turn out that Mance is actually a Night King style character in the books too, eventually leading the re-unification of that story line in both media as well. Maybe. He has an affinity for Jon because he knows that Jon is his son. Otherwise he would have had him killed immediately, and surprisingly he doesn't do that even though the other wildlings want Jon dead.

TV mance is dead because Tormund turned out to be a much more popular character. It's likely, GRRM kept Mance alive in order to work with the "kings blood" magic that Meli does. Also, book Mance has a better relationship with Jon

With that said, I just don't see how Mance could be revived not Rheagar to be Nights King. Especially since we have seen the night king being created for the first time. I don't know if GRRM will keep the origin story the same as he has said quite a few times that it is a mystery

I think he has affinity to Jon because Jon is uniting people vs him and Jon actually killed one.

As far as magic horns are concerned you have to assume that the show would suggest there are horns if they would play a large part, none were ever mentioned. This includes the horn of J that supposedly will break the wall. 

 

Ice dragon, yes I've read that theory. I too hope it's true but it's quite possible that the dragon is actually something that the night King will use

[tugela]

31 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Everyone will spit if George gives us Darth Rhaegar.

George might not, but don't put it past the TV show writers.

[tugela]

8 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

TV mance is dead because Tormund turned out to be a much more popular character. It's likely, GRRM kept Mance alive in order to work with the "kings blood" magic that Meli does. Also, book Mance has a better relationship with Jon

With that said, I just don't see how Mance could be revived not Rheagar to be Nights King. Especially since we have seen the night king being created for the first time. I don't know if GRRM will keep the origin story the same as he has said quite a few times that it is a mystery

I think he has affinity to Jon because Jon is uniting people vs him and Jon actually killed one.

As far as magic horns are concerned you have to assume that the show would suggest there are horns if they would play a large part, none were ever mentioned. This includes the horn of J that supposedly will break the wall. 

 

Ice dragon, yes I've read that theory. I too hope it's true but it's quite possible that the dragon is actually something that the night King will use

Yes, but we don't know exactly WHEN the Night King was created. Bran had a vision, but there was no indication of exactly when or why it happened.

The horn breaking the wall may be what Mance is telling everyone, because that is what will motivate them to look for it, but he may want it for a completely different reason. Horns were used by the dragon lords of Valyria to bind dragons to their will. The one that Euron had is one, but there were others as well, the book says this. The horn Mance is looking for is probably one of the other horns, he knows what it is for (since, as Rhaegar, he would have read up on all this stuff during his studies as a youth), he knows that there is a dragon under Winterfell (for the same reason), and that is what he is trying to get.

Jon did not kill a white walker before he met Mance. He was on a ranging mission to find out what the wildlings were up to, and got captured. There was no reason at all for Mance to keep him alive, and certainly the other wildlings wanted him dead because he was from the NW. Mance kept him alive, and as an ally, for a reason that has not been explained. My guess is that reason is that he is really Rhaegar (in the books, not in the show) and he knows that Jon is his son, as soon as he finds out that he is Ned Stark's bastard. He would also know that Jon would the prince that was promised, so of course he is not going to have him killed. It would all be part of the grand scheme of the fulfillment of prophecy in his mind, with him playing his role and Jon playing the part of Azor Ahai.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

Come to think of it, where is the horn now? With Sam?

[Dreadbad]

On July 1, 2016 at 8:27 AM, ilikethesebooks said:

Bran is gonna lead the NK and WW's not fight them.

I think this may be a possibility.  The WWs are a weapon that the CotF lost control of.  Is it up to Bran to bring that ultimate weapon back under control?   Maybe he can warg the Night King and hence control the Army of the Dead?   That conversation from s6e6 where Benjen tells Bran that the Night King will "find his way to the world of men, and you be there waiting for him" seems to leave the door open for this.   Does the Night King bend a knee to the rightful Lord of Winterfell?  

Again I think this is only a possibility but I think somehow things on the side of Ice have to move towards more of a grey area.  You have the evil WWs and the good Starks and their North while on the side of Fire you have things more of a blend or duality of good and evil.    Maybe Sansa marries Night King, can he be worse than husband number two?  Craster had a deal, they didn't kill Sam, so it's not all just about the killing for the WWs.  

[ilikethesebooks]

On 7/1/2016 at 10:08 AM, Sophie of House Stark said:

What makes you think this?

endgameofthrones.com

[The Dew]

We got all hyped up by the 3ER, but we saw no action of any sorts against them, or at least a narration of events from the 3ER to Bran. Bran with his vision was touched/marked by the NK, and the failsafe magic that protected the cave, failed. Are we to understand that the 3ER and his successor did/do not have the power to stop them? What is the purpose of the 3ER? Was there a 3ER always, rooted North of the wall to observe? If we are not specifically told about the real purpose of the 3ER, we will never truly know. Bran was left there to be touched, 'cause I did not see the 3ER being in distress? Is the cave magic similar to the wall magic?

[dbunting]

18 hours ago, tugela said:

Yes, but we don't know exactly WHEN the Night King was created. Bran had a vision, but there was no indication of exactly when or why it happened.

The horn breaking the wall may be what Mance is telling everyone, because that is what will motivate them to look for it, but he may want it for a completely different reason. Horns were used by the dragon lords of Valyria to bind dragons to their will. The one that Euron had is one, but there were others as well, the book says this. The horn Mance is looking for is probably one of the other horns, he knows what it is for (since, as Rhaegar, he would have read up on all this stuff during his studies as a youth), he knows that there is a dragon under Winterfell (for the same reason), and that is what he is trying to get.

Jon did not kill a white walker before he met Mance. He was on a ranging mission to find out what the wildlings were up to, and got captured. There was no reason at all for Mance to keep him alive, and certainly the other wildlings wanted him dead because he was from the NW. Mance kept him alive, and as an ally, for a reason that has not been explained. My guess is that reason is that he is really Rhaegar (in the books, not in the show) and he knows that Jon is his son, as soon as he finds out that he is Ned Stark's bastard. He would also know that Jon would the prince that was promised, so of course he is not going to have him killed. It would all be part of the grand scheme of the fulfillment of prophecy in his mind, with him playing his role and Jon playing the part of Azor Ahai.

This is a show discussion and forum though, so adding stuff like Mance being Rheagar, in books but not show, just adds to confusion. And why/how in what warped universe is Mance secretly Rheagar? Rheagar was killed in combat by Robert. Robert knew Rheagar, there would be no mistaking him. Rheagar is dead as dead gets.