Theda Baratheon Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 9 hours ago, Spockydog said: It. Was. A. Joke. And behold, you are offended. I. Could. See. That. maybe it was the "fucking millennials" that i didn't find funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I actually don't think "millennials" has really anything to do with it at base. It's young people in their first job. And boy howdy did they fumble. Look, I work in a large law firm. I'm currently wearing open toed shoes, which is kind of sort of a no-no. But (i) I am a partner - I earned the right to take some risks along the way, (ii) the shoes are very nice shoes and I look office appropriate, (iii) I have a client coming in who will be wonderfully and eccentrically dressed - so I am in part responding to that (see earlier comment re I am a partner and can make those calls) and (iv) when she gets deposed in a few days, I will be in a dark business suit with dark pumps because that's what one does. Big law firms hire in a funny (and stupid! but we can't change it!) way. We basically have cattle calls at all the big schools in the summer after the students' first year in law school. Each interviewing team meets 20-25 students that day for 20 minutes each and we decide who to bring back for additional interviews. I have ABSOLUTELY made calls based on what people have decided was interview-appropriate (both men and women). Is that shallow and a bit unfair on some level? Yes. But I have very little information to go on in that time period. So, apparel and body language absolutely go into the mix along with grades and content. If I'm distracted enough by your piano key tie, then I am going to pay less attention to the content. There is a reason for these things. ALL that said, when I was in the cattle call, I had a piercing in my upper earlobe (which I took out when my girls got to a certain grabby age after an....ahem...incident). They told me to take it out. I declined (though I did put a diamond stud in it, which I thought was a nice touch). Out of the 35 firms I interviewed with, I got 34 callbacks. So, you know, I try to take the stuff with a grain of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 4 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said: Is that shallow and a bit unfair on some level? Yes. But I have very little information to go on in that time period. So, apparel and body language absolutely go into the mix along with grades and content. If I'm distracted enough by your piano key tie, then I am going to pay less attention to the content. There is a reason for these things. I find all of this pretty sad. But hey - that's-how-the-world-works and all that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 6 minutes ago, Raja said: I find all of this pretty sad. But hey - that's-how-the-world-works and all that It may be sad, but I have 20 minutes to make up my mind about someone. I'm meeting 25 people over the course of the day. Part of the job is being client-presentable. So, you know, show up that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerenthaClone Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 My job has dress codes regarding footwear. We all universally ignore them and if they were enforced, we would protest as far up the chain as possible, including complaining to the media, and then a good portion would probably use it as a reason to start looking for other jobs. But then, I can be on my feet for 12+ hours a day and mandating strict color rules (that significantly limit my options for comfort) for a workforce that has excellent job mobility puts us in a pretty good bargaining position. Enforcement of arbitrary rules for the sake of arbitrary rules at the expense of physical health is idiotic and outdated and should be rejected by everyone everywhere. However, that doesn't seem to be the case here. That said, the events described in the OP seem like they are missing some key parts of the story, and the focus on the unfairness of some people being allowed to skirt the rules, rather than the pointlessness of the rules in question, seems like a missed shot. There is a point where you should just accept that there are going to be pointless, arbitrary rules and they need to be followed, however counter-productive it may be. Exploring why the company mandated those requirements and working from there may have been the better option instead of jumping in headfirst. It. Was. A. Joke. And behold, you are offended. Jokes should be funny. Or maybe are funnier when they're original. Or aren't the tip of an entire wave of zeitgeist aimed at laughing at or denigrating a group of people. And sometimes, someone isn't inclined to just laugh off your joke for whatever reason. Maybe don't be so offended that not everyone finds you funny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 6, 2016 Author Share Posted July 6, 2016 MC, So, I should go to court in Tee-Shirt, shorts, and berks and just let the chips fall where they may because arbitrary dress codes for professionals are ridiculous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercenaryChef Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 27 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: MC, So, I should go to court in Tee-Shirt, shorts, and berks and just let the chips fall where they may because arbitrary dress codes for professionals are ridiculous? if you swing a big enough litigation dick i say go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 6, 2016 Author Share Posted July 6, 2016 18 minutes ago, MercifulChief said: if you swing a big enough litigation dick i say go for it. I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kairparavel Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 People complain about arbitrarily selected dress codes but if you need a lawyer or you're consulting with a surgeon, do you want to meet with someone who looks like this? How much confidence would you have in this person? I feel not much. But then, I guess that's just like, my opinion, man. Anyways, shoes I agree are a very hard thing to regiment though companies do it all the time. Oddly enough, given my post earlier, I'm railing against the latest incarnation of footwear policies. I can skirt the company provided shoe by forking out $150 dollars for a shoe that meets the requirements but it sucks that it'll come to that. I don't care that they are BFU, but unlike pants or shirts that can be altered for greater fit, shoes don't have that luxury and these shoes don't fit my cinder block feet. And if you have a wide foot, your options narrow (ugh) like tenfold. So I feel for the people who have to work in a dress shoe environment. But not enough to support the idea of a petition without first understanding what they are petitioning against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 6, 2016 Author Share Posted July 6, 2016 I love Jeff Lebowski but I wouldn't hire the man as an associate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerenthaClone Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: MC, So, I should go to court in Tee-Shirt, shorts, and berks and just let the chips fall where they may because arbitrary dress codes for professionals are ridiculous? No, because what I meant was that some aspects of the dress code are arbitrary and ridiculous. Like shoe color on a nurse. Or clothes on anyone in a non-customer-facing job. If your job was only to provide a ton of paperwork/documentation to the lawyers who were going to be the "face" I'd say maybe, especially if you worked better in comfortable clothing and it didn't unduly hinder your coworkers. And I'd probably be more inclined to allow the t-shirt and shorts if you were for some reason in a court in the middle of the desert at noon without air conditioning, just because as unprofessional as you may look, your stuffily-dressed opponent probably looks worse when they pass out. I'm really touchy about any rules about my feet and it kind of bleeds into my reaction to other things. They hurt enough after a long shift (and have enough of an effect on my back) that anything that limits my options for something as arbitrary as color is asinine. I'm a huge fan of professional appearance (like when they made us wear only a specific shade of blue without print) within reason, because it looks better and often makes you do your job better. I get irritated when doctors wear a suit and tie into my patients' rooms too, because ties especially are a big vector for infection. I don't care if you think they look better than a rumpled set of scrubs, you and everyone else is safer, so deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 6, 2016 Author Share Posted July 6, 2016 MC, I'm well aware of the problem with neckties and infection. It's why some recommend bowties or no ties for Physicians. There is no rational reason why I need to be in a suit and tie to make a legal argument, yet I would hurt my client if I didn't wear that suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 3 hours ago, kairparavel said: you're consulting with a surgeon, You see, I'd much rather look into the reputation of the institution and his practice as opposed to if was wearing a decent tie, but that's just me. 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I'm well aware of the problem with neckties and infection. It's why some recommend bowties or no ties for Physicians. There isn't a consensus regarding that one - lots of hospital in the US have physicans and surgeons that wear ties, it's the UK that has the bare below elbow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filippa Eilhart Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 doctors should wear scrubs or labcoats. When I see a doctor in a suit I immediately wonder if they're really a doctor Ser Scott, I don't necessarily think lawyers should be able to wear whatever they want. But in the vast majority of cases people are able to decide what kind of dress is appropriate to a given situation without having it dictated to them to the smallest detail. Will you respect a woman lawyer less because she isn't wearing tights under her skirt in 30 degree (Celsius) heat? I wear jeans to work every day because I have no interaction with the public whatsoever, but that doesn't mean I would wear jeans to a meeting with members of the public even though my institution doesn't officially have a dress code. On the other hand, it is annoying when some people wear beach clothing to work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 8 hours ago, MerenthaClone said: Jokes should be funny. Or maybe are funnier when they're original. Or aren't the tip of an entire wave of zeitgeist aimed at laughing at or denigrating a group of people. And sometimes, someone isn't inclined to just laugh off your joke for whatever reason. Maybe don't be so offended that not everyone finds you funny? I'm offended that you think I'm offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I actually really like smart clothes and think some jobs call for it and can make you feel more productive and good about yourself when they fit nicely, but I just draw the line at uncomfortable footwear and heels for the sake of it. I really hate this stupid bright pink T-shirt we have to wear in work and I love volunteering in the museum and wearing ''smart casual'' but I think i'd like to work in an office too and actually wear...adult clothes...smart, fitted..:O no ripped jeans! Or doc marten boots! to work anyway! And I actually think the interns completely went about this the wrong way, I just didn't like the undercurrent of millennial distaste. Especially ''fucking millennials'' but I suppose that just makes me offended and a special snowflake even though I've never once been unemployed outside of study and was holding down a job alongside my studies and seem to get along well with every boss I've ever had and have never been told off or warned or anything in the work place. It's just really annoying constantly reading about these stereotypes of a whole generation of people around my age and you can't even argue or offer an opinion against it because some jackass then says you're offended and are too sheltered or have special snowflake syndrome or any other asinine comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 6, 2016 Author Share Posted July 6, 2016 58 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said: I actually really like smart clothes and think some jobs call for it and can make you feel more productive and good about yourself when they fit nicely, but I just draw the line at uncomfortable footwear and heels for the sake of it. I really hate this stupid bright pink T-shirt we have to wear in work and I love volunteering in the museum and wearing ''smart casual'' but I think i'd like to work in an office too and actually wear...adult clothes...smart, fitted..:O no ripped jeans! Or doc marten boots! to work anyway! And I actually think the interns completely went about this the wrong way, I just didn't like the undercurrent of millennial distaste. Especially ''fucking millennials'' but I suppose that just makes me offended and a special snowflake even though I've never once been unemployed outside of study and was holding down a job alongside my studies and seem to get along well with every boss I've ever had and have never been told off or warned or anything in the work place. It's just really annoying constantly reading about these stereotypes of a whole generation of people around my age and you can't even argue or offer an opinion against it because some jackass then says you're offended and are too sheltered or have special snowflake syndrome or any other asinine comment. Sterotypes are frustrating that way particularly when people want to claim the sterotypes are true and justified when you know damn well they aren't as universal as the advocates inevitable want to claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Theda - I have no problems with Millennials. I love working with my junior colleagues who take ownership and work thoughtfully and collaboratively. I, however, don't like working with people who don't take responsibility, aren't team players or make my life harder. Funny, has nothing to do with the year in which someone is born! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 2 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said: Theda - I have no problems with Millennials. I love working with my junior colleagues who take ownership and work thoughtfully and collaboratively. I, however, don't like working with people who don't take responsibility, aren't team players or make my life harder. Funny, has nothing to do with the year in which someone is born! Oh I have no doubt and I agree with what you said earlier, not a millennial thing to be unaware of etiquette in the workplace but a young person with first job thing. I'm not all that eloquent so I don't think my point is always clear. I just didn't like that "fucking millennials" joke but I will stop going on about it now lest I sound like a broken record LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 7 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said: Oh I have no doubt and I agree with what you said earlier, not a millennial thing to be unaware of etiquette in the workplace but a young person with first job thing. I'm not all that eloquent so I don't think my point is always clear. I just didn't like that "fucking millennials" joke but I will stop going on about it now lest I sound like a broken record LOL And I hated "Gen X slackers" (especially because I don't identify with Gen X - was born right on the line). So I TOTALLY get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.