Aegonzo The Great

Will Tommen Die In This Book?

55 posts in this topic

On 10/5/2016 at 7:40 AM, Cersei's Nachos said:

I'd love it for his death to be a very obviously accidental one. That would drive Cersei even crazier and the explanations she would come up would be hilariously absurd.

To me that would be rather anticlimatic but this being said I can certainly see your point lol.  I am just hell bent, and not because I am influenced by the show, that it has to derive indirectly from some sort of Cersei's short-sighted action. Not suicide on his part, of course not, but something, just like e.g. how she armed the Faith and that came back to bite her.

Still, although people here bash the show, it does get some things right (books are always better than the shows or movies they inspire lol) but George is very much in contact with them and let's see.  Tommen's reason's for suicide:  1) his beloved was dead at the hand of his mother 2) the city he had been told he had to protect had been set aflame, by his mother!.  Who are the victims beside commoners and people of any given status (whatever that might be) caught in it?  the Tyrells and the Faith.  It might not turn out too literal to the show plot but, say, more like poison or Varys or something, unless is Aegon's sacking of KL and I think Varys is waiting for the throne to be at its weakest before Aegon moves....the Tyrells or the Faith or even some pact between them unlikely as this might sound right now might actually be it for Tommen; by what means??? no idea in terms of assassination method.  But like people have said even Ser Strong accidentally or something but my dragons on the fact that Cersei will not be the perpetrator but an unwilling, indirect but clear contributor somehow.  So much poetic justice in that lol so her grief would be just wow and for the reader, we will end up pitying her to a point because options like blaming phantom Tyrion or something will be gone and she will have to look at herself inwardly.  She hasn't had this arc and although, I am sure not long for this literary world, I think she might have the chance to do so, even if for half an hour (before possibly Jaime kills her in his grief madness).  Okay she has shown a lot of humanity where her kids are concerned but hardly for anyone else.  This involves her kid of course but I think the scene will be written so beautifully that bitch as she is any mother or father will weep or be close... or so I hope ;)   

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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I don't know anything about the show. Just judging from the books so far, reasons for suicide might include: 

3) Myrcella's death in which he is, or feels, complicit

Some stupid Dornish declared Myrcella queen. And now Myrcella is due to arrive in King's Landing accompanied by some of those very same Dornish. Arianne has tried to impress on Myrcella the need for secrecy - but then Arianne cannot let her know exactly why. It is very likely that the events in Dorne will leak out. And that would mean that Myrcella would suddenly be conceived a danger by ... well, by almost anyone in power.

Her claim to the throne is as good as Tommen's.

Which means every single Tyrell would want to make sure she won't be a problem. 
The Sand snake who accompanied her might silence her to protect Arianne and Dorne. Myrcella, after all, is a dangerous witness of Arianne's "indiscretion". And might pose a danger to her own position at the regency council.
The Faith would want to make sure that the succession is not contested. They might not opt for killing Myrcella, though, and just suggest that Myrcella becomes a Septa. However, should Cersei raise objections, they might reconsider.
And Cersei herself might also kill her daughter, intentionally. During the siege of King's landing, she was prepared to kill both herself, and Sansa. She considered it a mercy. She might consider death a mercy for Myrcella, better than joining the Faith. Or she might start to see her as a threat to her own position as queen.

All of them might simply use one of Tommen's signatures to order Myrcella's execution. It wouldn't be the first time that that happened. It wouldn't even be the first time that Tommen learned about such an order afterwards. But this time, his grief would be infinitely worse because it happened to his sister. And if he suspects Margaery or Cersei behind that order, that would add the additional layer of betrayal. Those two are logical suspects - and likely to blame each other publicly over Myrcella's death.

4) the discovery of his true paternity - which might involve Jaime

That discovery would mean only one thing: betrayal by everyone he loved and trusted. Jaime and Cersei, of course.
Possibly even by the Margaery Tyrell, should he realize that the Tyrells knew all along, and only wanted a Baratheon for the Iron Throne.
If he isn't who he always thought he was - then who is he?

In both cases, Cersei would share some of the blame for Tommen's death.

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On 10/7/2016 at 9:31 AM, Tini said:

 

I don't know anything about the show. Just judging from the books so far, reasons for suicide might include: 

3) Myrcella's death in which he is, or feels, complicit

Some stupid Dornish declared Myrcella queen. And now Myrcella is due to arrive in King's Landing accompanied by some of those very same Dornish. Arianne has tried to impress on Myrcella the need for secrecy - but then Arianne cannot let her know exactly why. It is very likely that the events in Dorne will leak out. And that would mean that Myrcella would suddenly be conceived a danger by ... well, by almost anyone in power.

Her claim to the throne is as good as Tommen's.

Which means every single Tyrell would want to make sure she won't be a problem. 
The Sand snake who accompanied her might silence her to protect Arianne and Dorne. Myrcella, after all, is a dangerous witness of Arianne's "indiscretion". And might pose a danger to her own position at the regency council.
The Faith would want to make sure that the succession is not contested. They might not opt for killing Myrcella, though, and just suggest that Myrcella becomes a Septa. However, should Cersei raise objections, they might reconsider.
And Cersei herself might also kill her daughter, intentionally. During the siege of King's landing, she was prepared to kill both herself, and Sansa. She considered it a mercy. She might consider death a mercy for Myrcella, better than joining the Faith. Or she might start to see her as a threat to her own position as queen.

All of them might simply use one of Tommen's signatures to order Myrcella's execution. It wouldn't be the first time that that happened. It wouldn't even be the first time that Tommen learned about such an order afterwards. But this time, his grief would be infinitely worse because it happened to his sister. And if he suspects Margaery or Cersei behind that order, that would add the additional layer of betrayal. Those two are logical suspects - and likely to blame each other publicly over Myrcella's death.

4) the discovery of his true paternity - which might involve Jaime

That discovery would mean only one thing: betrayal by everyone he loved and trusted. Jaime and Cersei, of course.
Possibly even by the Margaery Tyrell, should he realize that the Tyrells knew all along, and only wanted a Baratheon for the Iron Throne.
If he isn't who he always thought he was - then who is he?

In both cases, Cersei would share some of the blame for Tommen's death.

You come up with very interesting theories indeed IMHO; all of those scenarios are plausible in the books and hey the only thing "I think I know for sure" is that Cersei would have "indirectly detonated the events" but at this stage I am fairly clueless as to how it will all pan out.  As for Aegon, pretty sure he will take KL and reign for a brief period but the fact that he is not in the show and that, to me at least is not a super interesting character, means (imho again) that he will not be end game; which leaves us with Varys in the books... to me he is clearly a Targaryan of sorts somehow (even the name fits) not necessarily Blackfyre... and I would wagger my dragons that he is playing Illyrio but that is for another thread I guess - and we know him and LF control the whole thing... but still all of Cersei's children have to die in the books by which hand... I like your theories though but my bet is that the last to do so will be Tommen and that the Valonquar ties with it in someway - too obvious for Jaime (but even more so for Tyrion) and there was that thing about "we shared a womb, come to this world together" or something to that ilk... which of course could be a red hearing but at the moment my wager is on Jaime because of Tommen's death somehow...  could well be wrong lol

 

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11 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

You come up with very interesting theories indeed IMHO; all of those scenarios are plausible in the books and hey the only thing "I think I know for sure" is that Cersei would have "indirectly detonated the events" but at this stage I am fairly clueless as to how it will all pan out.  As for Aegon, pretty sure he will take KL and reign for a brief period but the fact that he is not in the show and that, to me at least is not a super interesting character, means (imho again) that he will not be end game; which leaves us with Varys in the books... to me he is clearly a Targaryan of sorts somehow (even the name fits) not necessarily Blackfyre... and I would wagger my dragons that he is playing Illyrio but that is for another thread I guess - and we know him and LF control the whole thing... but still all of Cersei's children have to die in the books by which hand... I like your theories though but my bet is that the last to do so will be Tommen and that the Valonquar ties with it in someway - too obvious for Jaime (but even more so for Tyrion) and there was that thing about "we shared a womb, come to this world together" or something to that ilk... which of course could be a red hearing but at the moment my wager is on Jaime because of Tommen's death somehow...  could well be wrong lol

 

I always thought that Jaime would do it out of mercy. To spare her more sorrows. But then Jaime only has one hand. (I certainly hope he won't grow another one.)

That is, if Jaime is the valonqar. But lately I think it might be Euron's younger brother, Aeron Damphair. (No, I don't think he'll die soon. Or that he'll stay dead if he does.) 

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I think he will, if not for the prophecy then because George said the Throne would hold many different asses until the final one, and so far we've only had Robert-Joff-Tommen.

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13 hours ago, Whitering said:

I think he will, if not for the prophecy then because George said the Throne would hold many different asses until the final one, and so far we've only had Robert-Joff-Tommen.

That's quite a number for such a short time. Tommen didn't sit on the throne so far, though, Cersei did. And she made a point of not letting Tommen sit on his throne.

I'd add both Tywin and Kevan Lannister, and Mace Tyrell. Even though they were not sitting as kings, just as King's Hand & regents. Not to forget Renly, Stannis, Aegon etc. who claimed it at different times, though not successfully, so far.

Which makes it all the more likely, that the throne will change asses  hands again, soon.

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It would be pretty cheeky of George to mean Hands and Regents, I don't have the quote, but I don't think that's what he meant.

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On 10/21/2016 at 11:19 AM, Whitering said:

It would be pretty cheeky of George to mean Hands and Regents, I don't have the quote, but I don't think that's what he meant.

I don't either. I think he meant the King or Queen.

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On 02/07/2016 at 7:38 AM, Aegonzo The Great said:

She still believes he's hiding in the caslte, right? I can't remember if she got over that...

That was part of the reason she burned down the tower of the hand iirc.

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I think he will die. Suicide for one reason or another. There's a reason his weakness has been shown over and over to be his sensitive nature. Plus I mean come on KINGS LANDING! Leave it to George to give the place a fantastically foreshadowed name.

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I won't post any specifics but I have a strong suspicion his death in the books will mirror his death from the HBO series. 

That particular scene seems very powerful and likely based on books even if not identical when it happens.

 

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On 17 February 2017 at 2:33 AM, kav2001c said:

I won't post any specifics but I have a strong suspicion his death in the books will mirror his death from the HBO series. 

That particular scene seems very powerful and likely based on books even if not identical when it happens.

 

very early on in reading I wondered if Tommen would die from a fall because that would neatly echo Bran's fall and seem like the Gods punishing Jaime.

Also a possible means of murder-suicide if KL is about to fall and Cersei doesn't have poison and doesn't want Tommen taken alive

And vaguely echoes the princes in the tower, who are said to have been killed (presumable stabbed or with swords) then thrown down a shaft in their room

Like other posters I have wondered if Boros's ill health shows poisoning, although it can be brushed off as losing what little exercise he was getting and eating more...  

 

 

 

 

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I'm sorry but show Tommen's death was ridiculous and just HBO shock value, a 9 year old boy will not kill himself because the Great Sept explodes.

I agree he might fall though.

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10 hours ago, Cataldo said:

I'm sorry but show Tommen's death was ridiculous and just HBO shock value, a 9 year old boy will not kill himself because the Great Sept explodes.

I agree he might fall though.

yes but show Tommen was older and there was a whole psychological process where he felt guilty for not standing up for his mother and then when he did it resulted not just in blowing up a chunk of the Faith, but Tommen's wife, Margery. Agree it doesn't translate to book, but murder by throwing off a tower or to a window is quite possible.

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I'd like to see how Myrcella's reign unfolds. Do they wed her to Garlan or try to wed her to Aegon? Perhaps she's the Westeros equivalent of the nine day queen.

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