How can Jon be King when Bran is still alive?

[sj4iy]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Jon knows is alive (s4). and Sansa knows (s5).

It was a long time ago and all Jon knows is that a crippled boy went with a mentally handicapped man and Howland Reed's kids beyond the Wall...and now no one knows anything about them.    Jon thought they would be at Craster's but he never saw them.  So even if he told Sansa (which is likely), they would really have no reason to believe he is still alive...especially since he himself barely made back from Hardome alive and thousands more didn't.

Also, as noted by others, King in the North is not an inherited title at this point, so Bran would not be KitN by birthright, anyway.  He would be Lord of Winterfell...which Jon is not.  So it's really not applicable, anyway.

[HallowedMarcus]

21 hours ago, Chib said:

In my opinion, King in the North is still not a title to be inherited because the North haven't succeeded. It would only be legit if their rebellion succeeded. And they already failed once. The way GRRMartin said that in the end, there will be someone on the Iron Throne, it seems the North will eventually kneel to the Throne again. 

Meanwhile, Lady/Lord of Winterfell is pretty much legit. So Sansa is still getting all the birthright she is entitled to, despite the fact that in the book she technically was disinherited. Robb might not be viewed as the King by some parts of Westeros, but he was still lord of Winterfell by birthright so his will about Winterfell is still pretty much legit in the book.

However, I do agree that if Jon ever had children when he's still King in the North, it might create some complication with Sansa's children or Arya's children (Bran might never have kids and Rickon will die soon in the book) if they got married eventually. Still, I am sure Jon will die in the end so the Starks if any of them survive, they don't have to worry much about who will have Winterfell in the end. 

You are sure John Snow will die? Do you understand what that means? John is a Stark (Lysana) and a Targaryen (Rhaegar). If John  Snow dies it will be the end of the targaryen line because Daenerys is barren and there is no Aegon in the series. If he does die then as a Targaryen he should marry Daenerys and another Lady so his descendentes can rule after both Daenerys Targaryen and John die.

In the Book he might die without sons and/or daughters because of Aegon Targaryen (if he is legit) but not in the series. Even so I believe he will live, rule the seven kingdoms (in the book) and later on (20-30 years) abdicate for his son/daughter and rejoin the Night Watch as the 1000th Lord Commander (he was the 998th one) after the 999th dies.

[Darksky]

Jon knows Winterfell belongs to trueborn Starks. He will plant plant his seat elsewhere if he ever gets enough time to. There's this looming threat beyond the Wall he has to prioritise at the moment.

And like others pointed out, Jon and Sansa should assume Bran died beyond the Wall. Jon is well aware of how dangerous that place is.

[Future Null Infinity]

24 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Jon knows Winterfell belongs to trueborn Starks. He will plant plant his seat elsewhere if he ever gets enough time to. There's this looming threat beyond the Wall he has to prioritise at the moment.

And like others pointed out, Jon and Sansa should assume Bran died beyond the Wall. Jon is well aware of how dangerous that place is.

it's just some people confusing the title of Lady/Lord of Winterfell with the King in the north, the issue was resolved by the HBO site, and no way that all sansa fans are thinking that Jon stolen anyone's rights

[Meera of Tarth]

7 hours ago, sj4iy said:

It was a long time ago and all Jon knows is that a crippled boy went with a mentally handicapped man and Howland Reed's kids beyond the Wall...and now no one knows anything about them.    Jon thought they would be at Craster's but he never saw them.  So even if he told Sansa (which is likely), they would really have no reason to believe he is still alive...especially since he himself barely made back from Hardome alive and thousands more didn't.

Also, as noted by others, King in the North is not an inherited title at this point, so Bran would not be KitN by birthright, anyway.  He would be Lord of Winterfell...which Jon is not.  So it's really not applicable, anyway.

Sam tells Jon he saw him and was fine, not a long time ago (s4). Baby Sam is still a baby.

Crippled was not a problem when he was Lord WF while Robb was not there.

I see the point in the "not inherited" point of KiTN, but not mentioning Bran is a huge mistake, because he is the Heir, at least of Winterfell.

And Even in this season Sansa mentions Bran and Arya, and they don't talk about him not being alive in that episode. If they had said "maybe he was not alive" I could see the point, but without that reference is a huge ploit hole.

[Ruhail]

Catelyn was right is why.

[Kytheros]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Sam tells Jon he saw him and was fine, not a long time ago (s4). Baby Sam is still a baby.

Crippled was not a problem when he was Lord WF while Robb was not there.

I see the point in the "not inherited" point of KiTN, but not mentioning Bran is a huge mistake, because he is the Heir, at least of Winterfell.

And Even in this season Sansa mentions Bran and Arya, and they don't talk about him not being alive in that episode. If they had said "maybe he was not alive" I could see the point, but without that reference is a huge ploit hole.

Bran being crippled doesn't matter much while he's at Winterfell, true. However, Bran being crippled does significantly negatively impact his ability to survive while North of the Wall.

By any objective standards, by everything that Jon knows, Bran and his companions most likely died shortly after crossing North of the Wall, and no one will ever truly know how.

Bran is likely down as Missing, North of the Wall, Presumed Dead.

[Meera of Tarth]

8 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

Bran being crippled doesn't matter much while he's at Winterfell, true. However, Bran being crippled does significantly negatively impact his ability to survive while North of the Wall.

By any objective standards, by everything that Jon knows, Bran and his companions most likely died shortly after crossing North of the Wall, and no one will ever truly know how.

Bran is likely down as Missing, North of the Wall, Presumed Dead.

They should have said verbally said they are presumably dead.  When Sansa mentions them it doesn't sound as they are dead, it seems the contrary (at least to me).

Anyway, Sam saw he was very confident in going North of the Wall, if he had survived 4 seasons, there's no reason to doubt he "might" be alive now.

At least they should have mentioned him at some point in the episode.

 

EDIT: I don't even remember if Bran tells Sam he has to go North and Sam reports that info to Jon.....anyway he had survived 4 seasons. Assuming he died because he was crippled only because he was North of The Wall is understandable but they should have mentioned him because WF is his.

Apart from that, the title of KiNT is not very clear in the Show, the way LF suggests Sansa can be elected shows than not only merits are important, but also the legacy of being a Stark. My point is that if both Sansa and Jon are candidates then I can't understand why Bran isn't if, in theory, they don't know 100% he is dead; and after they had just found their little brother (who just  appeared to be alive).

[Future Null Infinity]

9 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

By any objective standards, by everything that Jon knows, Bran and his companions most likely died shortly after crossing North of the Wall, and no one will ever truly know how.

it was D&D mistake that created this huge confusion to not telling the viewers that the meeting was for choosing the king in the north which is a totally different title from the Lord of Winterfell

[Meera of Tarth]

6 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

it was D&D mistake that created this huge confusion to not telling the viewers that the meeting was for choosing the king in the north which is a totally different title from the Lord of Winterfell

And it is even more confusing when you put LF's words in the mixture with Sansa's, just after they know Bran "MIGHT" be alive, and then just after Rickon was found that way.

It looks as if cripples and magic should never deserve anything, or they were forgotten. And if you keep reminding that Bran is always searching for Jon (but not the contrary, just like with Arya) it's even worse.

I hope next season shows some light on this topic. If it is clarified, then, OK.

[Future Null Infinity]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It looks as if cripples and magic should never deserve anything, or they were forgotten. And if you keep reminding that Bran is always searching for Jon (but not the contrary, just like with Arya) it's even worse.

True, they made the lords of the north look like monkeys, I mean didn't anyone of them questioned where the heck is Bran? 

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Future Null Infinity said:

True, they made the lords of the north look like monkeys, I mean didn't anyone of them questioned where the heck is Bran? 

Exactly, exactly. Honestl, I hope next season we will see some light at this; but I suppose it was written that way (and I'm not justifying the decision because it would have been easy to put a line about Bran) because it was Jon's moment. The problem is that is always Jon's moment, and nobody else's from The North.

And it can always be Jon moment if you decide so because he might be the protagonist, and it's a TV show, but the point is that Bran is not a secondary character, he is a POV character (maybe not as important as Jon but still he is). And the storytelling demanded some "Bran mentioning" even if you decide he is not as important as Jon.

Then, apart from that, it was shown back in S2 he had that importance. And he is always searching for Jon. like always. Two times in the show (without counting his visions). Some payback would have been good.

[Kytheros]

Bran is missing, presumed dead. None of the Lords have any idea where he is, unlike what happened with Rickon, who wound up with one of the Lords, even if that one wound up being a traitor.

 

The potential-heir-candidate present comes before the long-lost, missing heir who's probably dead and even if he isn't nobody has any real idea where to start looking for him anyways.

[ummester]

On 02/07/2016 at 8:04 AM, Aryakills said:

The Millennials are taking over. Claims are the way of the old farts.

Well, GRRM did originally pitch it as a generational tale

[lakin1013]

Jon CLEARLY told Sansa that she is Lady of Winterfell.  Both Jon and Sansa do not know where Bran is, Rickon is dead, and they do not know where Arya is. By acclamation, the Lords of the North made Jon KoTN.  Blaming any unspoken claims on the characters is unfair, they say what the writers write.  If you believe that one of the Northern Lords should have at least asked where Bran was, then your issue is with the writers.  It seems to me everyone wants to blame Jon or Sansa or the Northern Lords for what they said, or did not say.   That lays squarely on the writers.  

Of course, in the very same episode, Bran could not wait to put his hand in a tree for another vision.  When Meeera asked him if he was ready, he said that he was now 3eRaven.  Does anybody think that Bran wants to give up tree visions to spend time administrating or warring?  I don't.   

 

[of man and wolf]

Warg your damn wolf Jon...you'd sense if one of your brothers was still aive then. That's what Bran does.

[CrypticWeirwood]

8 hours ago, Darksky said:

Jon knows Winterfell belongs to trueborn Starks.

False. It belongs to Starks, period. The blood is true, the law an illusion. The Stark line has passed through the female and bastard sides before.

[Arya Targaryen]

I really don't see where the problem is. Sansa knows that Theon didn't kill Bran, so that he might be alive. But Jon knows that Bran is North of the Wall. He went there to find him but couldn't. Recent events showed that practically everyone north of the Wall right now is dead, no reason to believe otherwise. If the WWs could killed all the Wildlings at Hardhome within like 10 minutes, a crippled boy in a group of 4 shouldn't take long for them. Since Jon knows this, no need to believe that Sansa doesn't know this, too, from Jon. Bran is likely dead, and even if he isn't, they have no idea where they could find him.

And I can totally see this info (Bran being probably dead) being told to the Northern Lords offscreen. Some time definitely passed between the end of the battle and the meeting. I'm not even sure why it is suddenly so important. It's not like they can wait with declaring a leader until Bran returns (or not). They need a leader now, and they need one who is there. They have two choices and they choose Jon over Sansa. When Bran returns, there might be some changes, but my money is on Bran supporting Jon's claim (while Jon offering the title to Bran).

[Tywin Tytosson]

14 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

They should have said verbally said they are presumably dead.  When Sansa mentions them it doesn't sound as they are dead, it seems the contrary (at least to me).

Anyway, Sam saw he was very confident in going North of the Wall, if he had survived 4 seasons, there's no reason to doubt he "might" be alive now.

At least they should have mentioned him at some point in the episode.

 

EDIT: I don't even remember if Bran tells Sam he has to go North and Sam reports that info to Jon.....anyway he had survived 4 seasons. Assuming he died because he was crippled only because he was North of The Wall is understandable but they should have mentioned him because WF is his.

Apart from that, the title of KiNT is not very clear in the Show, the way LF suggests Sansa can be elected shows than not only merits are important, but also the legacy of being a Stark. My point is that if both Sansa and Jon are candidates then I can't understand why Bran isn't if, in theory, they don't know 100% he is dead; and after they had just found their little brother (who just  appeared to be alive).

Candidates no longer matter.  The Lords of the North have elected/chosen their King.  I presume the position is for Life, Thus Jon stays KitN when Brandon does show up.  If Bran presses a claim, there would be a risk of a Civil War in the North.

The only way Jon does not stay KitN is if he himself decides to abdicate.  But that does not automatically make Brandon KitN.  The nobles would still have to elect him.

[Chib]

17 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

You are sure John Snow will die? Do you understand what that means? John is a Stark (Lysana) and a Targaryen (Rhaegar). If John  Snow dies it will be the end of the targaryen line because Daenerys is barren and there is no Aegon in the series. If he does die then as a Targaryen he should marry Daenerys and another Lady so his descendentes can rule after both Daenerys Targaryen and John die.

In the Book he might die without sons and/or daughters because of Aegon Targaryen (if he is legit) but not in the series. Even so I believe he will live, rule the seven kingdoms (in the book) and later on (20-30 years) abdicate for his son/daughter and rejoin the Night Watch as the 1000th Lord Commander (he was the 998th one) after the 999th dies.

 

 

Well I think Jon is brought back for one reason, to fight the WW. I don't think he even likes the idea of being brought back. His role is to fight and in the end he might die, that's all.