How can Jon be King when Bran is still alive?

[sj4iy]

On 7/3/2016 at 9:02 AM, Meera of Tarth said:

Sam tells Jon he saw him and was fine, not a long time ago (s4). Baby Sam is still a baby.

Crippled was not a problem when he was Lord WF while Robb was not there.

I see the point in the "not inherited" point of KiTN, but not mentioning Bran is a huge mistake, because he is the Heir, at least of Winterfell.

And Even in this season Sansa mentions Bran and Arya, and they don't talk about him not being alive in that episode. If they had said "maybe he was not alive" I could see the point, but without that reference is a huge ploit hole.

They know what's beyond the Wall.  They know that what's beyond the Wall is slaughtering people by the thousands.  Why would anyone believe that Bran is still alive?  And what difference does it make anyway?  What are they going to do, leave it vacant until Bran possibly returns?  Send search parties beyond the Wall to find a crippled boy who has been missing for months in a winter wasteland (because it's been at least that long, if not longer, since Sam met up with Bran).  My point is, Bran is not, nor will he ever, be the King in the North.  It's not an inherited title, he's been missing for far too long in the North for anyone to truly believe he's still alive at this point, and he's crippled and not a warrior in the first place.  If the Northerners would completely skip Sansa, a trueborn Stark, and choose Jon instead, then Bran has even less of a chance to be chosen as KitN.

[Moonstruck]

It doesn't make any sense because the true heir to Winterfell was sitting right beside him. They just wanted that big scene with everyone yelling King in the North. 

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, Moonstruck said:

It doesn't make any sense because the true heir to Winterfell was sitting right beside him. They just wanted that big scene with everyone yelling King in the North. 

The only way this makes sense if they have separated two titles - Lord of Winterfell (head of House Stark) and King in the North. There were talk that HBO Guide made Sansa Lady of WF and Jon KITN, so that may be the explanation. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On July 1, 2016 at 7:06 PM, Minuteman said:

KitN is a title conferred to Jon not inherited by him. So Jon is now king but he need not (and probably is not) Lord of Winterfell same as Robert was due the title Lord of Storm's End but when he became king that title passed to his younger brother, Stannis. So Jon is KitN and Sansa is Lady of Winterfell. There is no conflict. When/if Bran returns he will supplant Sansa, not Jon.

Or rather, it would have gone to Stannis, but Robert decided to give him Dragonstone instead and give Storm's End to Renly.

And probably Bran would cede Winterfell to Sansa anyway, since it's his destiny to be a magical advisor, not a lord.

[Lady Knows Nothing]

I don't think it really matters anymore who rules Winterfell anymore. With Robb and Rickon being dead, the only male heirs left are Bran and Jon. Bran is crippled and Jon is a bastard. Jon has as much claim to Winterfell as Bran in my opinion. I don't think Bran will have any interest in claiming Winterfell. I believe he will want to continue being the three eyed raven and let Jon and Sansa take claim to Winterfell. Just my two cents.

[Darksky]

Jon doesn't own Winterfell. It's Sansa's.

I agree on Bran not wanting a ruling position. Isaac said as much himself. He'd rather remain a magical advisor, a driving force but not a boss or leader.

I think he will become a kingmaker much like Lyanna Mormont.

[Osric]

Democracy

[Damitol]

Sorry - I don't have time to read every response and I'm guessing someone already said this, but do you really think Bran would want to be king?  He said himself, "I am the Three Eyed Raven".  Just because you are technically in succession for the throne doesn't mean you are forced to wear the crown.  If (when) Bran makes it back to Winterfell, I'm sure he will be perfectly OK with Jon being the Kind of the North, and possibly sitting on the Iron Throne one day (even though I'm personally betting that the "bittersweet" ending that GRRM hinted at will be Jon being offered the crown of Seven Kingdoms (as well as Essos?), and turning it down to return to Winterfell and quietly live out the rest of his life).   

[King Jon Snow Stark]

22 hours ago, Risto said:

The only way this makes sense if they have separated two titles - Lord of Winterfell (head of House Stark) and King in the North. There were talk that HBO Guide made Sansa Lady of WF and Jon KITN, so that may be the explanation. 

It does appear in the guide Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell. And Jon is just the King in the North. Even if Bran took both titles back Sansa and Jon would be by his side.  Sansa as his heir and Jon as a commander in his armies. I would be ok with that. 

[Mladen]

3 hours ago, Osric said:

Democracy

What happened in WF is not democracy. Unless you want to argue that entire population of the North managed to be stuffed in that hall.

8 minutes ago, King Jon Stark Targaryen said:

It does appear in the guide Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell. And Jon is just the King in the North. Even if Bran took both titles back Sansa and Jon would be by his side.  Sansa as his heir and Jon as a commander in his armies. I would be ok with that. 

Yeah... Unfortunately, like so many times, logic seems not to be GoT's strongest suit.

[TickTak7]

Sansa = Lady of Winterfell. 

Jon = King in the North. 

Remember, this is a very sexist world

[lancerman]

Sansa's a women who was both a Lannister and a Bolton. Even under the best circumstances she's not the person they would be the most enthusiastic to follow. She also pretty much said "you deserve it" to Jon, when he was saying she was the Lady of Winterfell.

Bran is a crippled who is missing presumed dead. At any rate, he's not there. You can't declare for a king who isn't even known to be alive.

Arya has been missing presumed dead since season 1.  Also not there to take the title.

Rickon is dead.

Robb is dead.

Jon is there, is the well known bastard son of Ned Stark, is fully grown, and is the person who led the charge against the Bolton's and is the reason there was even a battle for Winterfell and the only present trueborn heir to Ned was basically stepping aside for him.

It wouldn't be the first time the rightful heir was passed over for the best suited.

 

[Bee Diddie]

On 6/30/2016 at 7:45 PM, of man and wolf said:

We all know Sansa knows that Bran is possibly still alive. We also probably know that Jon saw Summer and Shaggy kill some wildlings when he ran from them, and I think, if memory serves me right, that Sam even mentioned seeing them alive. So how can Jon be named king in the North? He would have to tell his Northern lords and make them aware of this. Then they would have to hold out until Bran returns or some such thing???

Right, and Sansa will announce to the kingdom that Bran lives so Littlefinger, Qyburn and half the bounty hunters, assassins and general scum of Planetos will go looking to catch and sell her crippled highborn kid brother.
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[PhoenixfromAshes]

On 7/2/2016 at 6:06 PM, Darksky said:

Are you kidding?

How does Jon usurp anything when he didn't seek out to seize power? It was bestowed on him by the Lords. Jon is King by right of acclamation just like Robb was. Robb wasn't King based on birthright because Ned WASN'T King. King in the North is made, not inherited.

Sansa deserved shit for withholding crucial information regarding the Vale and contributing to the deaths of the Stark loyalists. She even admitted to her own mistake. Why can't her fans? It's ridiculous. What did she do for their cause anyway? She sent one letter wow what a daunting and life-risking task that was. She didn't do anything beyond that. She failed to rally the Northerners, she failed to assemble her own army (Jon and Davos did the work), she didn't help out with the battle strategy, she didn't fight in the battle. She was nothing more than a figurehead.

BTW I fully believe the Vale and LF would have come anyway, Sansa begging for help or not..

Bran didn't earn shit either. He can be Lord of Winterfell if he ever returns there, just like Sansa is Lady of Winterfell now. But what has he done to earn the title of King? What has he done for the North? A cripple King who cannot father heirs is not a desired option. Never is.

Jon has done a lot for the North over the years, while in the Night's Watch. And now he was the only one who actually tried to save Ned's heir, Rickon. He put his life on the line for the Stark family. Sansa just wanted revenge and Winterfell back. The Northerners see strength, nearly legendary skills, warrior spirit, determination, dedication and great potential in Jon. They are more like Dothraki and Wildlings when it comes to choosing their leaders. Jon can do a lot from the position of King in the War for the Dawn, what would Sansa be able to do as Queen? Barely anything, again she'd just be a figurehead. The plot demands Jon in a position of power, not Sansa.

The Northern  story is past this awful birthright entitlement and classicism. It's a huge progress.

People shouldn't be shocked that the writers prioritise Jon over Sansa. He is one of the Big Three, he is the way more popular one. Sansa is second-tier, her fans need to accept the fact she will always play second fiddle to a top-tier character. And yet, the writers still have made her important and gave her something to do in the show. In the books, she's less of a character. Pushed to the edge of the plot, she serves as a camera. A way to look into Littlefinger. That's her role.

Brutal.

To be honest, Sansa might not survive next season. She has no place in the war against the Whitewalkers, and from the high possibility of her allying with Littlefinger against Jon.... well that doesn't bode well for her character. She'll die tragically, betraying her family again without knowing she consorted with the biggest Stark enemy of all, Littlefinger.

[Osric]

17 hours ago, Risto said:

 

20 hours ago, Osric said:

Democracy

What happened in WF is not democracy. Unless you want to argue that entire population of the North managed to be stuffed in that hall.

 

Of course it is not democracy dude, I put a laugh emoticon... unless the lords of the North were more like a congress which represent all the common people of the North and the desicions they make represent the wishes of the people, or so they say, so their votes were also people's votes although people don't even know what the hell is happening.... hey sometimes happens -my country for example-.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Osric said:

Of course it is not democracy dude, I put a laugh emoticon... unless the lords of the North were more like a congress which represent all the common people of the North and the desicions they make represent the wishes of the people, or so they say, so their votes were also people's votes although people don't even know what the hell is happening.... hey sometimes happens -my country for example-.

You would actually be surprised how many times democracy argument has been used when it comes to GoT/ASOIAF and their Kings

[Osric]

38 minutes ago, Risto said:

You would actually be surprised how many times democracy argument has been used when it comes to GoT/ASOIAF and their Kings

Interesting, I'm searching  

[Lurid Jester]

On July 3, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Future Null Infinity said:

True, they made the lords of the north look like monkeys, I mean didn't anyone of them questioned where the heck is Bran? 

Uh, because they have no reason to believe he is alive.  Hell, many of them thought he would be better off dead when they heard about him being crippled.  He's a kid, and a cripple in a world where both kids and cripples have very limited survivability.  

Add to that the stories that Theon killed Bran and Rickon ages ago.  Sure, it turned out that Rickon wasn't killed..  But he had two good legs. 

Bran is just a cripple, and if you're going to raise your flag for someone you want them hale and healthy.  

Freshly risen from the dead is pretty good too.  Can't get more healthy than that. 

[Rhaegun]

Some of this discussion focuses on kingship being inherited.  This is true only if there actually is a kingdom.  The North surrendered to the Targareyens, so there is no kingdom of the north to inherit.  It has to be won by rebellion.  Warden of the North is an appointed title, Lord or Lady of Winterfell is an inherited title, but King in the North has to be won,  The lords of the north can swear fealty to whoever they want, but until the North is recognized as independent from the Seven Kingdoms, the title is an empty one.

[wolfsbae]

Jon was proclaimed King in the North while the Lady of Winterfell was sat right next to him, so I think the Bran argument is largely moot at this point anyway, whether they presume him alive or dead. It's also important to remember that the title of "King in the North" was never a birthright; Eddard Stark wasn't King in the North and Robb didn't inherit the title from him after his death - he was voted KitN by his own men.

Lord/Lady of Winterfell and King/Queen in the North are two separate entities - Robb just happened to occupy both of those titles. It's the beginning of the decline of the feudal system.