Blackwood = Magic?

[Librus]

Alright, I'm not sure if this theory is out there or not. But I'm going to put it out there myself anyways. Here goes nothing!

 

As you can see from my title. This thread is going to be on my theory that the Blackwoods are bringing magic back to Westeros. You all might think I'm crazy for this. But if you really look at it, I find it hard to disagree with. First off, we all know that Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers is one of the strongest greenseers in like... Forever. Right? Right. Well, his mother was a Blackwood and the Blackwoods have always been ardent followers of the old ways. This, however, is where things get interesting. This is not the only place we see the Blackwoods in the family trees. Blackwoods have also shown up in both the Stark and the Targaryen lines as well and in very recent history.

 

King Aegon V married Betha Blackwood and three generations later Daenerys brings dragons back to the world. Of course, this could be just a matter of pure luck. But things get a little stranger when you look at the Starks and you learn that they too didn't seem to have magic left until after Willam Stark married Melantha Blackwood four generations previously. Now all of the current Stark children seem to have some level of warging and greensight. So, we have two families who gained magic after a union with the Blackwoods. Yes, it did take a few generations for the magic to heat up but sometimes that happens in genetics. I mean, we already have proof that the Blackwoods have great magical potential with Bloodraven. Why couldn't that pass into other families over time? 

 

So, am I crazy? Or does this actually make sense to anyone else?   

[lareine]

I also became interested in House Blackwood after the WOIAF came out and agree with you that there are a lot of hints that their line carries magical potential from the First Men. Aside from Bloodraven, the fact that they are one of the few families south of the Neck to still worship the old gods and their family seat contains a colossal, ancient weirwood tree where hundreds of ravens roost nightly make it seem almost obvious. 

I'd very much like to know what the relationship was between Melantha Blackwood, who married into House Stark, and Betha Blackwood, Aegon V's wife.  Looking at the Stark and Targ family trees, both marriages appear to have occurred four generations back, which would seem to make the women contemporaries. Were they sisters? Cousins?  What was their relationship to Bloodraven? Did he play any part in helping to bring about their marriages?

I think it is possible that the Blackwood blood may have had some role in re-awakening the magical potential in both houses, but how big of a part it played, if any, I think we'll just have to wait and see. I also think it's interesting that we learned from WOIAF that Aegon V's mother was a Dayne, another ancient First Man house with magical associations.

  

 

[Damon_Tor]

Its definitely interesting that the Blackwoods chose exile to the Riverlands rather than becoming vassals to House Stark. There were other, bitter enemies of the Starks in the North who all bent the knee, but not the Blackwoods. Why? What made them different? They were able to displace foreign kings (Brackens) and contest their land. How? They (alone?) amongst the Southern houses resisted conversion to the Andal religion after being conquered. What makes them able to do this when nobody (?) else on the continent could?

Their blood is important, I'm sure of that.

18 hours ago, lareine said:

I'd very much like to know what the relationship was between Melantha Blackwood, who married into House Stark, and Betha Blackwood, Aegon V's wife.  Looking at the Stark and Targ family trees, both marriages appear to have occurred four generations back, which would seem to make the women contemporaries. Were they sisters? Cousins?  What was their relationship to Bloodraven? Did he play any part in helping to bring about their marriages?

I think it is possible that the Blackwood blood may have had some role in re-awakening the magical potential in both houses, but how big of a part it played, if any, I think we'll just have to wait and see. I also think it's interesting that we learned from WOIAF that Aegon V's mother was a Dayne, another ancient First Man house with magical associations.

Agreed, very interesting.

[Free Northman Reborn]

18 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Its definitely interesting that the Blackwoods chose exile to the Riverlands rather than becoming vassals to House Stark. There were other, bitter enemies of the Starks in the North who all bent the knee, but not the Blackwoods. Why? What made them different? They were able to displace foreign kings (Brackens) and contest their land. How? They (alone?) amongst the Southern houses resisted conversion to the Andal religion after being conquered. What makes them able to do this when nobody (?) else on the continent could?

Their blood is important, I'm sure of that.

Agreed, very interesting.

Reading the hints from the World Book, one almost gets the impression that far from being the champions of magic back in the day, the Starks did everything they could to eradicate magic and the old races from the North. At least, in the early days after the Long Night.

The wiped out the line of the warg Gaven Greywolf, they wiped out the Warg King of Sea Dragon point, his greenseers and beasts. They drove giants from the North.

The fact that they married the daughters of all these guys makes me think that rather than trying to eradicate magic from the North, the Starks were intent on amalgamating all magical power under their own control. Therefore they were intent on eradicating rival magical families, and absorbing their magical lineages into the Starks own line. Perhaps the Blackwoods were not willing to do this, or else foresaw a purpose for their own distinct line thousands of years in the future, separate from the Starks' own clearly magical lineage.

[Damon_Tor]

7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The fact that they married the daughters of all these guys makes me think that rather than trying to eradicate magic from the North, the Starks were intent on amalgamating all magical power under their own control. Therefore they were intent on eradicating rival magical families, and absorbing their magical lineages into the Starks own line. Perhaps the Blackwoods were not willing to do this, or else foresaw a purpose for their own distinct line thousands of years in the future, separate from the Starks' own clearly magical lineage.

There's certainly a pattern. It's important, I think, to mention the Barrow Kings as well, especially when considering the Crypts of Winterfell.

My working hypothesis is that magic and "Gods" in ASoIaF are all explained by gestalt, a group consciousness, magic power wielded either collectively or invoked by individuals who are particularly well in tune with the gestalt. A King has a position of particular significance within the gestalt, acting as a central node, so to speak.

After the Long Night the gestalts of the First Men were numerous, with a great deal of nodes, a highly decentralized system, and thus one that nobody could really take advantage of. The Starks, by combining their lines with their enemies' as well as becoming Kings of their peoples they gestalt became more and more centralized, and that was the point.

Now, the Starks themselves weren't likely aware of any of this. They were driven to do this by the Children of the Forest, who have direct influence over the Starks ("There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is one of the terms of the treaty) and so by making the Starks into the central node of the First Men gestalt, were able to increase their own power considerably and regain some of what they lost when the First Men destroyed so many of their weirwoods.

But this still doesn't explain why Blackwood was able to escape from this consolidation of power where nobody else was.

Bloodraven's key ability appeared to be dreamspeaking: it appears he could do this even before his apotheosis into the tree. Is this "the power" of the Blackwoods? Dreamspeaking is likely how the CotF manipulate the Starks, so did Blackwoods maybe have an ability to eavesdrop on these dreams, keeping them one step ahead of their enemies?

[aadam13]

12 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

There's certainly a pattern. It's important, I think, to mention the Barrow Kings as well, especially when considering the Crypts of Winterfell.

My working hypothesis is that magic and "Gods" in ASoIaF are all explained by gestalt, a group consciousness, magic power wielded either collectively or invoked by individuals who are particularly well in tune with the gestalt. A King has a position of particular significance within the gestalt, acting as a central node, so to speak.

After the Long Night the gestalts of the First Men were numerous, with a great deal of nodes, a highly decentralized system, and thus one that nobody could really take advantage of. The Starks, by combining their lines with their enemies' as well as becoming Kings of their peoples they gestalt became more and more centralized, and that was the point.

Now, the Starks themselves weren't likely aware of any of this. They were driven to do this by the Children of the Forest, who have direct influence over the Starks ("There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is one of the terms of the treaty) and so by making the Starks into the central node of the First Men gestalt, were able to increase their own power considerably and regain some of what they lost when the First Men destroyed so many of their weirwoods.

But this still doesn't explain why Blackwood was able to escape from this consolidation of power where nobody else was.

Bloodraven's key ability appeared to be dreamspeaking: it appears he could do this even before his apotheosis into the tree. Is this "the power" of the Blackwoods? Dreamspeaking is likely how the CotF manipulate the Starks, so did Blackwoods maybe have an ability to eavesdrop on these dreams, keeping them one step ahead of their enemies?

Perhaps there were multiple factions in the children of the forest each supporting their own house which would be house stark, house blackwood and house greywolf, however there were probably more "magical" houses. 

[Damon_Tor]

Maybe we're thinking of this whole thing backwards because of our patrilineal bias. Maybe the female line is more important than the male line for passing on magic powers. Maybe what we see as "Stark taking their daughters as prizes" is the patriarchal Maesters misinterpreting history; the STARKS lost and the other houses TOOK Winterfell. Their name became Stark not because they married Lord Stark, but because Stark ISN'T a family name at all, it's simply the title of the Lord of Winterfell. That would also answer the question of how the "Stark" family managed to rule for 8000 years when no dynasty in our world has even come close; they DIDN'T rule for 8000 years, new Stark families rose and fell all the time.

[Guest jasonothegreat]

I agree that is very likely, we see Blackwood blood in very prominent figures throughout history. Be it the Storm King who Conquered the Trident... The Justmans who were a cadet branch of both Blackwood and Bracken. Daenerys and Rhaegar, The Stark Siblings. I believe that there is certain potential in the Blackwoods.

@Damon_Tor

He pointed out the unlikeliness of house Blackwood preserving their culture for so long in the Riverlands. This is not only an extremely sound point but also accentuated by the fact that there are no natural barriers in the riverlands besides the rivers and the lands of Raventree Hall and the Blackwood Vale aren't exactly in the most secure lands in the Riverlands so I do beleive some magic must have been used to keep the Brackens and the other riverlords at Bay. 

 

This is a very intriguing theory 

[Guest jasonothegreat]

2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Maybe we're thinking of this whole thing backwards because of our patrilineal bias. Maybe the female line is more important than the male line for passing on magic powers. Maybe what we see as "Stark taking their daughters as prizes" is the patriarchal Maesters misinterpreting history; the STARKS lost and the other houses TOOK Winterfell. Their name became Stark not because they married Lord Stark, but because Stark ISN'T a family name at all, it's simply the title of the Lord of Winterfell. That would also answer the question of how the "Stark" family managed to rule for 8000 years when no dynasty in our world has even come close; they DIDN'T rule for 8000 years, new Stark families rose and fell all the time.

I'd have to disagree on that, Its a fantasy world so there are some differences. House Stark isn't the Oldest house in Westeros, far from it. The Gardeners and Daynes have four thousand years on them, but we can't really make the same argument as that because if it was so common to have names change depending on their ruling castle then it wouldn't be hidden knowledge.

The Arryns ruled over 2000 years which is 4 times the longest ruling dynasty on Earth. The Lannisters have ruled over 4000 years and house Durrandon/Baratheon is as old as house Stark. Even the Mootons and Bar Emmons, comparatively small houses who were once powerful are still around after a few thousands years, The Royces along with them.

Most Houses in the Reach in fact are older than House Stark as they descend from the very first Gardener and have stayed in power this entire time as well. So most houses in Westeros have a few thousand years of history and if names changed depending on the castle that one inhabited then it would probably be more common knowledge than a misinterpretation of the Stark family tree

[Lady Barbrey]

Some really good hypotheses here!

I do think it might be a misconception that the Blackwoods could not have held onto their culture in the midst of the Riverlands.  It is sometimes exactly those remnants of culture that attach to subjects of diaspora that survive to this day.  We only know about Norse saga and religion in its oldest form from Iceland, and certainly the Jewish people kept their faith alive no matter where they traveled.  

My suspicion is that being the "oldest" in Westeros is not as important as being members of the families that joined the pact with the Children of the Forest.  That pact seems to me to have been signed in "blood" literally - what better way to protect the forests of Westeros than to make certain humans part forest-people?  Wargs, skinchangers, green dreamers and seers?  Those totems from certain houses might have had a solid basis in reality at one time.  And that actually worked better than breaking the Arm or creating (if George goes there) Others or the deluge from Moat Cailin.  But when the Andals came, those "green" people got pushed north, the Blackwoods among them, just as you find far more Celts in Scotland than in the more Anglo Saxon England.  Those special abilities dilute in the south to extinction after the Andals arrive, and die out in the North as well except for the families that practice a bit more inbreeding than the others.

I don't know why the Blackwoods exiled themselves south but I would imagine that because they held to the old faith and customs, they didn't intermarry outside themselves as much as others did.  Moreover, they had to hide what they were far more than their northern cousins, and in-marriages would make sense in that respect too.  The inbreeding meant the "magic" of their line remained stronger in them BECAUSE of their exile not in spite of it.  

My take on it!

I love the idea that Stark is a title, by the way.  I myself am almost persuaded that the Starks - or whoever built Winterfell - were originally Daynes.  It's because of the architecture ... but that's another theory.

I also like the idea that it's the female line that is important when it comes to passing down the right genes and that the Starks were absorbing magical genes by marrying daughters of magical lines (I don't think the Reeds were mentioned above, by the way, but that's another of the Starks taking king's daughters in marriage).  I'm also not sure why royal lines seem to be more "magical" than others, but if you look at European royalty, they were the most inbred of anyone except people from isolated communities.  As well, if they were kings, they might have been strongest in the abilities at one time.  Notice that the Starks never wanted to provide daughters to Targs  but were not at all adverse to taking a Targaryan princess into the Starks.

This helps explain to me why the Starks and the Blackwoods are likely strongest in magical potential, one from conquering and intermarriage with magical bloodlines as well as cousin-marriages ; the other from semi-inbreeding from necessity in the midst of an alien culture. 

 

 

[Maia]

While I agree that the First Men somehow interbred with the Children and their wargs/greenseers are the result thereof, a lot of other assumptions you mention seem to have been debunked by tWoIAF book. Like, the "Andal Conquest" seems to be a bit of a misnomer except in the Vale and in the Riverlands.

 

22 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

  But when the Andals came, those "green" people got pushed north, the Blackwoods among them, just as you find far more Celts in Scotland than in the more Anglo Saxon England. 

No, surprisingly it turns out this was  the case in the Vale only, where even commoners seem to be largely of Andal descent and a lot of First Men have been pushed into the mountains and became the wildling clans. While the Riverlands were also conquered, people weren't actually displaced and there was a lot of mixing. Stormlands weren't wholly conquered, but parts of it were. None of the remaining 3 southern kingdoms were conquered at all! Some Andals settled in Dorne, but not many. In the Westerlands, nobles and gentry intermarried with the Andals, but the commoners didn't. The Reach  was never in danger of being conquered, very few Andals were admitted and intermarried with the nobility - in a shocking twist, it was revealed that they are almost as "pure"  First Men as the northmen!  They also have lots of proper weirwood heart-trees in  castles and everything (Highgarden has 3!), for all that they have converted to the Faith.

  Oh, and it sure looks like the Ironmen were also originally First Men, who didn't abandon their religion after the Pact and eventually  elevated one of the gods over all others. They mixed with the Andals, but also kept taking thralls and salt-wives, who would have been First Men, for the most part. 

To sum it up, apparently, in most cases the so-called Andal Conquest was more like Norman conquest of England, only milder, than the Anglo-Saxon one. Apart from the Vale, that is, and Riverlands, to an extent.

 

Quote

Those special abilities dilute in the south to extinction, and die out in the North as well except for the families that practice a bit more inbreeding than the others.

While people not actually _praying_ to the weirwoods in the south may inhibit development of their abilities, because the Old Gods/weirnet may be doing something to facilitate them,  I wouldn't be too sure that there is nobody in the there who has them. They just have very good reasons to deny/suppress  their talents or keep them hidden. Both AFFC and tWoIaF contain persistent rumors about Farwynds being skin-changers of sea mammals, for instance. And  TWoIaF also has rumors about Cranes, etc. Not to mention all the smallfolk that may just appear to be excellent with certain animals, etc.

As to the Blackwoods, they can't practice incest, so they must intermarry with their neighbors, etc. They even provided one of Walder Frey's wives!  They do seem to be a rather fertile family - IIRC Lord Tytos had 6 children who survived infancy (but 2 died recently), aunts, uncles and cousins in ADwD, so marriages between cousins may be more common than usual between them. Or not. Lord Tytos and his son Hoss didn't strike me as having any magical abilities, even though they clearly run in the family.

 

[Lady Barbrey]

2 minutes ago, Maia said:

While I agree that the First Men somehow interbred with the Children and their wargs/greenseers are the result thereof, a lot of other assumptions you mention seem to have been debunked by tWoIAF book. Like, the "Andal Conquest" seems to be a bit of a misnomer except in the Vale and in the Riverlands.

 

No, surprisingly it turns out this was  the case in the Vale only, where even commoners seem to be largely of Andal descent and a lot of First Men have been pushed into the mountains and became the wildling clans. While the Riverlands were also conquered, people weren't actually displaced and there was a lot of mixing. Stormlands weren't wholly conquered, but parts of it were. None of the remaining 3 southern kingdoms were conquered at all! Some Andals settled in Dorne, but not many. In the Westerlands, nobles and gentry intermarried with the Andals, but the commoners didn't. The Reach  was never in danger of being conquered, very few Andals were admitted and intermarried with the nobility - in a shocking twist, it was revealed that they are almost as "pure"  First Men as the northmen!  They also have lots of proper weirwood heart-trees in  castles and everything (Highgarden has 3!), for all that they have converted to the Faith.

  Oh, and it sure looks like the Ironmen were also originally First Men, who didn't abandon their religion after the Pact and eventually  elevated one of the gods over all others. They mixed with the Andals, but also kept taking thralls and salt-wives, who would have been First Men, for the most part. 

To sum it up, apparently, in most cases the so-called Andal Conquest was more like Norman conquest of England, only milder, than the Anglo-Saxon one. Apart from the Vale, that is, and Riverlands, to an extent.

 

While people not actually _praying_ to the weirwoods in the south may inhibit development of their abilities, because the Old Gods/weirnet may be doing something to facilitate them,  I wouldn't be too sure that there is nobody in the there who has them. They just have very good reasons to deny/suppress  their talents or keep them hidden. Both AFFC and tWoIaF contain persistent rumors about Farwynds being skin-changers of sea mammals, for instance. And  TWoIaF also has rumors about Cranes, etc. Not to mention all the smallfolk that may just appear to be excellent with certain animals, etc.

As to the Blackwoods, they can't practice incest, so they must intermarry with their neighbors, etc. They even provided one of Walder Frey's wives!  They do seem to be a rather fertile family - IIRC Lord Tytos had 6 children who survived infancy (but 2 died recently), aunts, uncles and cousins in ADwD, so marriages between cousins may be more common than usual between them. Or not. Lord Tytos and his son Hoss didn't strike me as having any magical abilities, even though they clearly run in the family.

 

None of this was unknown to me, so all the "surprising" and "shocking" details you quote are repetitious rather than revelations.  My reasoning is based on these things taking place over thousands of years, and that the worship of the Old Gods is almost exclusively still practiced in the North, whether by Northerners or wildlings. And being First Men qualifies you for nothing - being related to the families involved in the Pact is what qualifies you for possible CotF related "magic".  These are the families most likely to be found in the North where the faith is kept, and it simply follows that the families involved in the Pact are going to be more Old-God faithful.  

The Farwynds are another example of genetic isolation and very likely are the skin changers the rumours claim they are.  This is what I'm trying to emphasize in my post.  Though George seems to have variants on our idea of genetics, he is giving us reasonable backstory for why some families seem to have stronger magic potential than others.  Genetic isolation, founders effect, inbreeding, etc.

There very well might be southron families still hiding a few skinchangers.  I'm not quite sure why you're saying I'd be surprised to find that out.  That latent abilities might be found amongst the whole population is not in doubt.  But that they were largely bred out in the south genetically if only because of a greater influx of new people and gene pools (for one reason) should not be a surprise to you and I'm surprised I have to argue it.

And while Blackwoods more recently have intermarried, they likely didn't do so often when they first came south.  That does not mean incest but certainly cousin marriages.  I'm assuming there are hundreds of Blackwoods, and thousands of Blackwood-related, not just one nuclear family and that they naturally followed what many groups of immigrants do when they first arrive amongst people with a different faith and culture, and that is marry within the group.

Whatever.  I thought I was giving a reasonable explanation to the OP about why the Blackwoods might still be strong in magic but find myself offended by someone's tone and in a tiresome argument.  Par for the course.

 

[Maia]

4 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

 And being First Men qualifies you for nothing - being related to the families involved in the Pact is what qualifies you for possible CotF related "magic".  These are the families most likely to be found in the North where the faith is kept, and it simply follows that the families involved in the Pact are going to be more Old-God faithful. 

No, it doesn't follow at all. The Pact was concluded on the Isle of Faces, which is in the south. The First men first came from the south over the Broken Arm and slowly spread towards the north. They very well may have only settled in the North after the Pact.

 

Quote

  But that they were largely bred out in the south genetically if only because of a greater influx of new people and gene pools (for one reason) should not be a surprise to you and I'm surprised I have to argue it.

 

It is because you speak about that "influx" that I have assumed that you weren't aware of the new facts revealed in tWoIaF. Because we now know that in some areas Andal immigration was minimal enough to be entirely negligible. "Breeding out" the abilities genetically makes no sense in that context.

We don't know whether there are tons of Blackwoods, whether they brought a large group of followers with them from the North  initially (the legend about the start of Bracken - Blackwood feud suggests differently), and/or whether their smallfolk and vassals also follow the Old Gods. There is no evidence in text one way or another. All we know is that currently the House members  are  rather numerous. 

 

Quote

I thought I was giving a reasonable explanation to the OP about why the Blackwoods might still be strong in magic but find myself offended by someone's tone and in a tiresome argument. 

This is completely uncalled for.  I was  pointing out flaws (IMHO, YMMV) in your argument, which, I thought was the point of engaging on internet forums? Discussion?  

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

I highly doubt there was ever any interbreeding between the First Men and the Children. Having different numbers of digits makes them species that are very far removed on any biological family tree, and likely incapable of interbreeding.

Instead, any magical affinity by the First Men was likely gained by way of blood rituals, similar to how Bran is being introduced to the Weirwood Network via drinking some kind of weirwood sap mixed with obvious blood from some creature.

 

[NimbleDickCrabb66]

Anyone think that the Warg King could have been a Blackwood?

On the House Blackwood's wiki it is said that the Blackwoods controlled part of the Wolfwood before they were driven out by the Starks and we also know the Blackwoods have the potential to be the most powerful wargs (Brynden Rivers). The Warg King ruled from Sea Dragon point which is toward the western side of the Wolfwood, so its not too far fetched that the Warg King was an ancient Blackwood king who driven out of his seat located on Sea Dragon Point. As Damon_Tor mentioned, the daughters of the warg king were taken as brides by the starks. I don't think I can get behind the fact that Stark is just the name for the lord of Winterfell. We have both the book and the show say that there must be a Stark in Winterfell, so I think the family name/genes are important. 

I can get behind the idea of females having stronger chances of birthing children with magical blood for warging/greenseeing. If not for the fact that females have "stronger" blood, than because women can procreate and couldn't inherit seats. 

Other interesting tidbits regarding Blackwood Magical blood/Warg King:

- The Warg King was ousted after the long night, and this information is gleaned from scrolls at the nightfort

- Cregan Stark did an about face during the hour of the wolf and agreed to not execute the Corlys Velaryon in exchange for a marriage with Aly Blackwood. Odd that as soon as he gets his blackwood bride he headed directly back to the North. Did she have some sort of magic vageen?

-  How is that Aly Blackwood and Cregan Stark have four daughters and not one of those four daughters have any offspring? Its possible, but unlikely. We know Cregan did have other children, but any information about what happened to Aly Blackwood and Cregan stark's children seems lost.

- The She-Wolves of Winterfell: I strongly believe there is some info. in this unreleased book about Blackwoods. In this book I think we'll travel north with Dunk, Egg, Maester Aemon, and Bloodraven. Why is that George cannot release this book before Winds? Odds are the book is already done because it was supposed to released in an anthology I believe.

[aadam13]

43 minutes ago, NimbleDickCrabb66 said:

Anyone think that the Warg King could have been a Blackwood?

On the House Blackwood's wiki it is said that the Blackwoods controlled part of the Wolfwood before they were driven out by the Starks and we also know the Blackwoods have the potential to be the most powerful wargs (Brynden Rivers). The Warg King ruled from Sea Dragon point which is toward the western side of the Wolfwood, so its not too far fetched that the Warg King was an ancient Blackwood king who driven out of his seat located on Sea Dragon Point. As Damon_Tor mentioned, the daughters of the warg king were taken as brides by the starks. I don't think I can get behind the fact that Stark is just the name for the lord of Winterfell. We have both the book and the show say that there must be a Stark in Winterfell, so I think the family name/genes are important. 

I can get behind the idea of females having stronger chances of birthing children with magical blood for warging/greenseeing. If not for the fact that females have "stronger" blood, than because women can procreate and couldn't inherit seats. 

Other interesting tidbits regarding Blackwood Magical blood/Warg King:

- The Warg King was ousted after the long night, and this information is gleaned from scrolls at the nightfort

- Cregan Stark did an about face during the hour of the wolf and agreed to not execute the Corlys Velaryon in exchange for a marriage with Aly Blackwood. Odd that as soon as he gets his blackwood bride he headed directly back to the North. Did she have some sort of magic vageen?

-  How is that Aly Blackwood and Cregan Stark have four daughters and not one of those four daughters have any offspring? Its possible, but unlikely. We know Cregan did have other children, but any information about what happened to Aly Blackwood and Cregan stark's children seems lost.

- The She-Wolves of Winterfell: I strongly believe there is some info. in this unreleased book about Blackwoods. In this book I think we'll travel north with Dunk, Egg, Maester Aemon, and Bloodraven. Why is that George cannot release this book before Winds? Odds are the book is already done because it was supposed to released in an anthology I believe.

I agree since it is not known what the Blackwoods called themselves while they were kings in the north.

[Damon_Tor]

On 7/15/2016 at 11:25 AM, NimbleDickCrabb66 said:

I don't think I can get behind the fact that Stark is just the name for the lord of Winterfell. We have both the book and the show say that there must be a Stark in Winterfell, so I think the family name/genes are important.

Think of it like this:

"There must always be a President in the White House."

If you read that saying, you know what it means: it means that we always have to have a President, if one dies we swear in the Vice President, and there's a whole chain of succession to ensure we're never without someone to take that office. Now skip forward 8000 years. That saying has somehow survived but society has changed drastically and the meaning of the word "President" has become lost. Maybe "House President" now rules over the lower Potomac from a white castle and uses that saying to justify their dynasty.

Consider how the name "Caesar" became synonymous with rulership, became in and of itself a title, places as far away as Russia calling their king "Czar", a word which had been simply the family name of a general-turned-dictator of an empire whose borders never even approached those of Russia... and that drift, from Caesar to Czar took place in less than a thousand years. Imagine what could happen over 8000? It would be a miracle is ANY word or name had the same meaning in the present that it did back then.

[rhoynestar]

I really like OP's main idea of magic/powers being inherited through the bloodline of some influential families, such as the Starks and Targs, and the Blackwoods possibly playing a role as well. Certainly I do agree that the Blackwoods seem special at times, although nothing's been conclusively proven, and their history is fascinating.

In the spirit of discussion, can I raise some minor quibbles that may or may not impact OP's original theory? I'd love to see what people think about these points:

1) The Blackwoods intermarried heavily with the Brackens and other families, for political and other reasons. The books make a point about these families admitting that the Blackwoods are just as Bracken as the Brackens are Blackwoods, even when they constantly feud with each other. Do we see anything in the Brackens that would suggest their Blackwood blood causes some special traits as well? Or does the weirwood tree and the old faith of the Blackwood House seem to "enhance" Blackwood blood specifically in the main line and bring certain dormant magical traits to the surface, so that women with the name "Blackwood" have strong enough magic in their blood to impact other family lines?

2) The Bloodraven case is much stronger, of course, but I'm not sure we have enough evidence to suggest that magic left the Starks, and then Melantha Blackwood is the reason it came back again.

On 2016. 7. 1. at 8:56 AM, Librus said:

But things get a little stranger when you look at the Starks and you learn that they too didn't seem to have magic left until after Willam Stark married Melantha Blackwood four generations previously. Now all of the current Stark children seem to have some level of warging and greensight. 

4 generations is a pretty long gap for magic to surface because of a new infusion of blood; and the Starks married other houses too in the meantime. It's possible to argue that the primary magic was in the Stark bloodline for years, and just lying dormant because their lives were pretty stable until external circumstances such as severe personal and family trials at a young age brought it to the surface, not because of Melantha. 

 

In the end I'm not so sure it's Blackwood blood infusion that causes certain magical traits, so much as a combination of Blackwood blood and magical families like Targ or Stark blood that might create a potential cocktail for more magic, while Blackwood blood married into non-magical houses just peters out. But I'd love to hear thoughts on this.

[NimbleDickCrabb66]

On 7/21/2016 at 1:18 AM, Damon_Tor said:

Think of it like this:

"There must always be a President in the White House."

Do you have any evidence that might suggest this? I'm not saying your idea is unreasonable, its just, I don't know why you would think that the name Stark isn't a familial name like all of the others, and is instead a corrupted version of something like Magnar, or some old tongue name for leader. I think the saying "A Stark must always be in winterfell" has something to do do with a pact with the others and/or Children, due to the Stark's magic blood, or perhaps their are spells that were connected to the construction of Winterfell itself. The world book really elaborates on the idea that blood is important and even hints at genetic modifications that are possible with blood magic/certain types of bloodlines.

I would also counter with the fact that the North wasn't always ruled by a Stark. The Dustins were kings in the north, the Blackwoods were said to have ruled the north, the Bolton's were also a constant contender (and sometimes rulers). So the Stark name doesn't have to mean leader for the north. The Starks are said to have ruled the North for 8000 years, but that is highly doubtful and we know the winners keep the records. There is nothing in the Stark records on the Rape of the Three Sisters, but that is something that happened according to records at the Citadel and the Vale.

The Starks are such an old house its not surprising their house origins are a mystery. Other than that the house was started by the Bran the builder (who has a lot of mystery about him in his own right), there is not alot that is in the text about their beginnings. Bran built the Wall, Winterfell, Storm's end, the more I read the more I think Bran the Builder found a way to preserve his mind in a weirwood tree and be reborn through powerful Wargs that have just the right cocktail of bloodlines.

On 7/21/2016 at 6:35 AM, rhoynestar said:

In the end I'm not so sure it's Blackwood blood infusion that causes certain magical traits, so much as a combination of Blackwood blood and magical families like Targ or Stark blood that might create a potential cocktail for more magic, while Blackwood blood married into non-magical houses just peters out. But I'd love to hear thoughts on this.

You make a good point about extreme tribulations being necessary to bring out warging abilities. I like the idea of tapping into primal instincts due to life threatening situations, it fits nicely. You also made me second guess the idea of Blackwood blood being special. It could just be first man blood. Brynden Rivers could have performed spells to enhance his ability and it could have been due to the ancient weirwood tree at RavenTree. There's so much we don't know still. There plenty of info. out there to support the argument that Blackwoods are no more special than a wildling warg north of the wall, but there is also evidence to support their bloodline being important.

There doesn't seem to be any indication that Bracken blood has magical properties, and the only known Wargs from the blackwood family was Bloodraven. It could just be because he had an interest and developed his ability through learning what his blood was capable of (First man/Targaryen-Valyrian). Blackwoods were conquered and I'm guessing mixed or intermarried with iron islanders (House Hoare) and StormLanders (Durrandon), but we don't hear of any wargs or greenseers. What we have to do is look at the blackwood family tree and see if we can find any other mention of wargs or special abilities.

 

 

 

[CrypticWeirwood]

10 hours ago, NimbleDickCrabb66 said:

 the only known Wargs from the blackwood family was Bloodraven. 

Actually, Rhaegar was half Blackwood so if Jon's his son, there's another.