PhD: Bad Idea, Terrible Idea or the Very Worst of All Ideas?

[Datepalm]

I finally had a serious talk with a professor about the possibility of applying for a PhD (abroad, probably in the US or UK,) which I've been toying with for a while. I think I was half hoping she'd shoot me down, but, alas, she was encouraging and practical.

Anyone have any strong opinions, experiences, insights into the whole process? Differences between the US and the UK and Canada? A lot of what's out there seems to suggest it's a personally miserable experience (less than 50% of the things ever get finished, apparently, much less on time) and a poor idea in career terms...but i've been through permutations of the other available options in my field (private sector, NGO, public) and i'm still dissatisfied with all of them.

I want more qualitative and technical tools than i'm going to get from my MA and more experience of field work and research. On the other hand, I have a sneaking suspicion that what I'm looking for is really only on hand in a few of programs that have contacts and pick up funding for major international projects and not so much elsewhere. So it might a good plan it if I get into MIT or somewhere (which is where my professor thinks I should apply...no pressure) but not in a lot of regional programs. (And there are actually only about 30 PhD planning programs in the entire US anyway, and I don't quite see myself spending 5-7 years in a small town, so that's a consideration as well.) I think I'm facing the MBA debate we had somewhere, where there's a very deep divide between programs that are worth it and those that aren't.

That leaves me with a lot of big intangibles i'm not sure how to assess. UK and Canada appear to have relatively straightforward processes of contacting prospective advisors directly as a first step, but the US is more of a black box. My prof things I should invest in going to a relevant conference (all the way in Portland,) as it's madness to try and pick an advisor/student sight unseen, but it doesn't seem at all clear that that kind of networking plays any role here. Its a short and expensive trip (even if I can wrangle a US visa in time, which I'm not at all sure of) of dubious necessity - on the other hand, if this is what's going to be influencing the next decade or so of my life, probably worth it?

Portland is nice in November, right?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Do it.  Then we can call you Ph.D Datepalm.

[Corvinus85]

What is your field of study? PhD are more worth it in some fields, not so much in others.

I was accepted in a PhD program of engineering about 4-5 years ago, but I was not excited for it. The MS program had been challenging enough, and I was mainly expecting the same but 10 times worse. PhD changes people.

Luckily, I found a job and changed my career path.

[Datepalm]

Geography/Urban Planning. I'm enjoying my MA, but not finding it all that challenging for the moment (maybe that's why I'm enjoying it.) 

[Chaircat Meow]

It all depends on you. It is a long slog, and some people might find it can be lonely and depressing. Others might find a way to enjoy themselves and have an active social life, etc.

I went straight onto a Phd from my undergraduate degree and my main problem was that for about 1-2 years my research just did not come together at all. I couldn't find a way into saying anything new in a coherent way. This led to a lot of bad things (depression, loss of confidence). Fortunately it all turned out very well in the end and I got a publishing deal. Although my career isn't going anywhere (early days though).

Finishing, and producing good research is fulfilling but the process not so much. I found it a big step up in difficulty from my MA.

I doubt that only 50% get finished though. I imagine the drop out rate falls a lot after the first couple of months or so.

I can't really comment with authority on the process outside my own university and field. As I understand it Phds take longer in the US but are designed to incorporate more hands on experience and teaching. In the UK it is pretty much all about research, although there is the opportunity to do some teaching.

Maybe tell us what you hope to achieve by doing a Phd?

[Altherion]

I'm not entirely clear on the thought process behind going for the PhD. You want more qualitative and technical tools and more field work and research experience, but what is the end goal? Are you in it for the experience in and of itself or is there something the degree and experience will allow you to do that you can't do right now?

I have a PhD from a US university and I've worked with a lot of people from Europe who also have PhDs. One of the big differences is that American universities will generally let you take your time (that's where the 5-7 years comes from) whereas European ones have pretty strict requirements on how long you have and if you can't finish it in that time, they just kick you out. Also, the degrees don't quite mean the same thing everywhere. In the US, the PhD is the final degree on the way to a position as a senior professor whereas in certain countries, you effectively need to write yet another thesis and have it examined by more senior colleagues later on.

The major drawback of which you are already aware of is that the PhD is a significant time investment. In the US, it can also cost money, though most respectable universities will give you a teaching or research position which comes with a stipend. The one thing I would stress about the PhD is that it really matters that you get along with your adviser. This person is some strange combination of boss and mentor. It is important that the two of you agree not only on the type of work that you will do, but also on the pace at which the work gets done and on the degree of autonomy that you will have. A substantial fraction of the miserable experiences come from choosing an incompatible (or just plain bad) adviser.

[Whitestripe]

First, I work in academia, so everyone except the support staff has some sort of advanced degree. Most of my colleagues have doctorates. I would ask what your career goals are. Nearly all of the people I know with PhD degrees have them because they were a requirement for the job. I also know a fair few ABD's who said "screw this! And left their field to do something else entirely)   I am not sure it will be worth it unless you plan to work in research or academia and need it for the job. If you are just looking for more of a challenge or more interesting work, I think you'll be better off finding that through employment or by joining a professional society or somewhat. 

[James Arryn]

Do you enjoy the process, or is it just a matter of increased options? In my experience that difference really matters in terms of how much hell it is. Advisors, etc. are factors over which you have less control, but if you go in thinking it's going to be a horrible but necessary ordeal, IMO, the chances are much greater that it will be.

As far as where you'll live, I agree that can be very impactful, depending on how you schedule your oversight/interaction and your material access. I had friends who treated it more like contract work, ie relocate into kinda crash pads for periods but maintain primary/emotional homes elsewhere. Another factor is your familial/relationship situation, because though it wasn't true for me, I knew people who felt it was kinda an either/or.

[Datepalm]

It's a mix of career prospects and interest. There's just very little work being done in Israel on the topics I want to pursue, whether its in academia or outside (just because they're specific and its a small country with only a few relevant departments, companies and non-profits, and I've literally worked at about 70% of them at this point.) I suppose part of it is that being a student is a good way to go about getting some international mobility on the one hand, and on the other, yeah, research is what I want to do. Most of my professional experience is basically in doing research, (a lot of planning in general is) and using it for criticism (if it's an NGO) or making it say what the client wants (if it's a consulting company.) I've always felt i'm re-inventing the wheel (poorly) or just doing shoddy work - if I have an option of settling my methodological conscience, in that sense, that's where I want to be. 

[IheartIheartTesla]

If you do a PhD in those three countries I guarantee you will see and/or meet a lot of Indians.

[Datepalm]

I'm intrigued by that "and/or". I'd love to meet an invisible Indian. :-)

(terrible children's book or possibly thesis in there somewhere.)

[Datepalm]

3 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said:

I doubt that only 50% get finished though. I imagine the drop out rate falls a lot after the first couple of months or so.

Apparently, in the US, PhD completion rates - up to the 10 year mark - hover somewhere around the 55% mark, according to a 2008 study. http://www.phdcompletion.org/resources/cgsnsf2008_sowell.pdf Lower in the humanities and social sciences, higher in medicine and hard science. UK is substantially higher though, it seems (close to 80%.) 

[TerraPrime]

PhD is a big investment in opportunity cost. The time you spend getting a PhD is time you're not spending gaining work experience, nor putting away money for retirement. It is worth it in the end if you're going to put the degree to use, i.e., that it will open doors for you that no other qualifications can. If the technical tools you want can be had by just working, it might be the more efficient way to get it. However, if the field is closed and the way to get access to those knowledge is through specific PhD programs, then that's a good option to take.

[GrimTuesday]

Can't offer any insight as to doing a PhD, I'm currently dreading the day that I inevitably go back for my Masters, but I can say that Portland is nice in November, provided you like grey skys and mild (likely cold for someone from a warm climate)  weather.

[Starkess]

It's such a big decision, and for me that makes it easier to decide against it, I guess. I have often thought about pursuing my PhD, but it would be a complete upheaval of my life. It's kind of my "if my relationship ever explodes" type back up plan, as realistically I couldn't make it work with my boyfriend's career. It is definitely a lot of time/money/trouble/effort/headache/whatever. Best of luck with your decision!

[Datepalm]

The funny thing is that in Israel graduate education (at least outside hard sciences, where you're working in a lab) typically has a fairly low opportunity cost. It's not very expensive and usually done in parallel to employment. (Most people in my MA planning program work full-time in planning.) If I were to do a PhD here next year, (assuming I could find an advisor,) it wouldn't be a big change - I'd show up to the university for a day or so a week, or less, and fit it around work, which is exactly what I do now. It's counter-intuitive to me that the further you go the more intensive and higher the opportunity cost gets, actually. To me it's the opposite - Bachelors is a big decision. Then you can just kind of tack a masters on to that, and a PhD can almost be a hobby. 

[Lily Valley]

On 7/1/2016 at 9:00 AM, Datepalm said:

I finally had a serious talk with a professor about the possibility of applying for a PhD (abroad, probably in the US or UK,) which I've been toying with for a while. I think I was half hoping she'd shoot me down, but, alas, she was encouraging and practical.

 

Portland is nice in November, right?

Oregon?  It's kinda rainy and miserable from October 1 - June 1.  That said, it's a beautiful city.   I regret not finishing my PhD.  I'm ABD and thought I could leave school, start a career and still work on the dissertation (haha).  I loved Graduate school.  Would have stayed there forever.  Do it.

[Buckwheat]

I will just say I did not imagine so many people on this forum have/are working on/have experience with doing a PhD. This is an interesting thread. Good luck to DP, whatever you decide to do. I would say more knowledge is always better, if you can make it work.

[Raja]

23 minutes ago, Gryka zwyczajna said:

 This is an interesting thread. 

It is indeed - I'm debating doing a MA in either Health Policy & Finance or possibly a MA in public health, this is sometime next year so I have a bit of time to find the right program. The latter includes aspects of the former, so I'm not entirely sure what I'd like to do. 

[Chaircat Meow]

14 hours ago, Datepalm said:

The funny thing is that in Israel graduate education (at least outside hard sciences, where you're working in a lab) typically has a fairly low opportunity cost. It's not very expensive and usually done in parallel to employment. (Most people in my MA planning program work full-time in planning.) If I were to do a PhD here next year, (assuming I could find an advisor,) it wouldn't be a big change - I'd show up to the university for a day or so a week, or less, and fit it around work, which is exactly what I do now. It's counter-intuitive to me that the further you go the more intensive and higher the opportunity cost gets, actually. To me it's the opposite - Bachelors is a big decision. Then you can just kind of tack a masters on to that, and a PhD can almost be a hobby. 

Believe me, writing the damn thing up is not comparable to a hobby. At least, it wasn't for me, it was very tough. And research takes time. Maybe you're different to me, but I'd really struggle to do 5-6 hours of research a day and work a full time job at the same time (and that's before teaching/seminars/other stuff comes in).