UK Politics: The Love Song of A. B. de Pfeffel Johnson

[A Horse Named Stranger]

17 hours ago, Maltrouane Fellaini said:

On a very slightly related note, I have found out today that a majority of the Tory leadership candidates are Scottish - I already knew about Gove, but it turns out both Fox and Crabb were also born north of the border.

They are playing a long game obviously.

Step one: Blair and Brown take over Labour and run it into the ground, and drive its Scottish vote into the SNP (check). Step two: Other Scots take over the Tories (check). Step three: govern in such a way, that it alienates the Scots, and Scotland declares indepence (work in progress). Step four: resign to an independent Scotland and leave the Tories without any leadership. Step 5: Enjoy the retirement, while both English major parties are tumbling around without any leadership. Step 6 (final step): Line up at the border, point your fingers south and laugh.

Pretty cunning, isn't it?

 

[mormont]

Another day, more political infighting;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468

So Boris think the government should be explaining to us all how wonderful Brexit is going to be. He also, of course, expected that they'd have drawn up a detailed plan for Brexit. I expect next week's column to complain that the government didn't produce any pro-Brexit leaflets, posters or speeches. Does he actually understand that the government were campaigning against Brexit? Or is this just more Boris laziness? 'Can't someone else do it?'

Meanwhile, his campaign manager tells us all that Gove is a security risk because he 'has an emotional need to gossip' when he's drunk, which of course he adds is pretty much all the time. (Which would explain a lot.) Nasty stuff.

And Liam Fox still exists, apparently.

[Hereward]

So, Farage has resigned again. I suppose every massive storm cloud has a silver lining.

[Chaldanya]

1 hour ago, Emre Mor-mont said:

So Boris think the government should be explaining to us all how wonderful Brexit is going to be. He also, of course, expected that they'd have drawn up a detailed plan for Brexit. I expect next week's column to complain that the government didn't produce any pro-Brexit leaflets, posters or speeches. Does he actually understand that the government were campaigning against Brexit? Or is this just more Boris laziness? 'Can't someone else do it?'

Nah, the government should absolutely have had some sort of roadmap for Brexit.  It was one of the two choices available and it would have helped with the period of uncertainty.  Not having plan just says that the people involved in both sides were more concerned with their hurt fee-fees and careers and not the good of the country.

[mormont]

To be fair, it appears that neither side actually anticipated a Leave win. Which is pretty bad all round.

But there's a difference between a contingency plan for Leave winning (which the government should have had, and in fact seem to have had, at least in relation to dampening the initial economic shock) and a detailed policy road map for EU exit (which the Leave campaign should have had, and are now insisting the government should have drawn up). You can't make policy for something that isn't your policy. It would have no credibility.

[Chaldanya]

I think we'll agree to disagree on that. It really doesn't matter if it wasn't the in-situ's government's policy, they called the referendum and absolutely should have been prepared to follow through. This means that somewhere there should be at least the start of a road map. I think we've been failed all the way around by people who were supposed to have wanted the responsibility of government and to serve the country. That service even means that if they don't like the outcome they still need to ensure whatever stability they can.

[The guy from the Vale]

51 minutes ago, Hereward said:

So, Farage has resigned again. I suppose every massive storm cloud has a silver lining.

So, neither Boris nor Nigel will even try to deal with the mess they created? They're both rejecting responsibility and show absolutely no leadership. What a disgrace.

[HexMachina]

12 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

So, neither Boris nor Nigel will even try to deal with the mess they created? They're both rejecting responsibility and show absolutely no leadership. What a disgrace.

That was my first thought too. He has said he is leaving after achieving his ambition. Well, 1) we havent even left the EU yet, and 2) its pretty shitty to just wave away the difficulties the UK now faces with "Lol, i won, dont care now!" 

Just confirmation what a shitty man he is

[mormont]

40 minutes ago, Chaldanya said:

I think we'll agree to disagree on that. It really doesn't matter if it wasn't the in-situ's government's policy, they called the referendum and absolutely should have been prepared to follow through. This means that somewhere there should be at least the start of a road map. I think we've been failed all the way around by people who were supposed to have wanted the responsibility of government and to serve the country. That service even means that if they don't like the outcome they still need to ensure whatever stability they can.

See, here's where I think we can perhaps agree: the whole referendum process was badly planned and poorly thought out.

For one thing, the government should have set out rules that said the official Leave campaign could consult with civil servants and EU officials well in advance of the vote and draw up at least a basic Brexit plan, if not a full white paper, which would then be enacted if Leave won (while leaving room for it to be modified). This would have solved the problem, but it would also have led to headlines suggesting the government weren't confident they would win, which is one reason I assume Cameron didn't do it. The other would be that he was focused on trying to get a deal with the EU and that required him to at least pretend that his government might actually campaign for Leave itself. But neither of these problems was at all insurmountable: in fact, he could have got around them fairly easily.

For another thing, the government should have anticipated that the result could be very close either way and thought about what that would mean and how it should be handled. They should also have discussed questions like 'how is article 50 to be initiated?' and come up with clear, legally definitive answers.

But they didn't. So, here we are. And that far, I agree with you: everyone currently in government has screwed this up.

[williamjm]

3 hours ago, Emre Mor-mont said:

And Liam Fox still exists, apparently.

I had wondered why he was bothering to run, but maybe it is just to remind people of his existence.

[ljkeane]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

That was my first thought too. He has said he is leaving after achieving his ambition. Well, 1) we havent even left the EU yet, and 2) its pretty shitty to just wave away the difficulties the UK now faces with "Lol, i won, dont care now!" 

Just confirmation what a shitty man he is

Farage is a tit but, in fairness, he's not really in a position to have anything to do with determining the actual details of the UK's post brexit government policies and he was never going to be.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

That was my first thought too. He has said he is leaving after achieving his ambition. Well, 1) we havent even left the EU yet, and 2) its pretty shitty to just wave away the difficulties the UK now faces with "Lol, i won, dont care now!" 

Just confirmation what a shitty man he is

Unless you're suggesting that Farage be offered a place in the Cabinet, it's hard to see what role he could play now.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Emre Mor-mont said:

See, here's where I think we can perhaps agree: the whole referendum process was badly planned and poorly thought out.

For one thing, the government should have set out rules that said the official Leave campaign could consult with civil servants and EU officials well in advance of the vote and draw up at least a basic Brexit plan, if not a full white paper, which would then be enacted if Leave won (while leaving room for it to be modified). This would have solved the problem, but it would also have led to headlines suggesting the government weren't confident they would win, which is one reason I assume Cameron didn't do it. The other would be that he was focused on trying to get a deal with the EU and that required him to at least pretend that his government might actually campaign for Leave itself. But neither of these problems was at all insurmountable: in fact, he could have got around them fairly easily.

For another thing, the government should have anticipated that the result could be very close either way and thought about what that would mean and how it should be handled. They should also have discussed questions like 'how is article 50 to be initiated?' and come up with clear, legally definitive answers.

But they didn't. So, here we are. And that far, I agree with you: everyone currently in government has screwed this up.

It's very  unusual for people who are running against the government to win a referendum.  But, this was an unusual referendum.  Usually, the government has a fairly detailed plan in place which it then puts before the people, either to accept or reject.  This one was a purely consultative exercise.

[The BlackBear]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Unless you're suggesting that Farage be offered a place in the Cabinet, it's hard to see what role he could play now.

They keep him on as an anti-advisor, if he likes a policy the cabinet should avoid it at all costs.

[The guy from the Vale]

35 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

They keep him on as an anti-advisor, if he likes a policy the cabinet should avoid it at all costs.

If only the English and Welsh public had been smart enough to do that...

[Shryke]

3 hours ago, Emre Mor-mont said:

See, here's where I think we can perhaps agree: the whole referendum process was badly planned and poorly thought out.

For one thing, the government should have set out rules that said the official Leave campaign could consult with civil servants and EU officials well in advance of the vote and draw up at least a basic Brexit plan, if not a full white paper, which would then be enacted if Leave won (while leaving room for it to be modified). This would have solved the problem, but it would also have led to headlines suggesting the government weren't confident they would win, which is one reason I assume Cameron didn't do it. The other would be that he was focused on trying to get a deal with the EU and that required him to at least pretend that his government might actually campaign for Leave itself. But neither of these problems was at all insurmountable: in fact, he could have got around them fairly easily.

For another thing, the government should have anticipated that the result could be very close either way and thought about what that would mean and how it should be handled. They should also have discussed questions like 'how is article 50 to be initiated?' and come up with clear, legally definitive answers.

But they didn't. So, here we are. And that far, I agree with you: everyone currently in government has screwed this up.

Geez, it's almost like none of the people at the top actually wanted to leave and the whole vote was just a political play in internal Tory power struggles.

[Maltaran]

2 hours ago, williamjm said:

I had wondered why he was bothering to run, but maybe it is just to remind people of his existence.

Rumours are he's going to pull out and endorse Leadsom before the first vote tomorrow in order to sabotage Gove.

I assume part of the reason for Farage resigning is that a new UKIP leader would be better able to attract the Northern working class Labour leave voters, which is their obvious target demographic now.

[Commodore]

Maybe his legitimization is the real political threat, but the obsession with marginalizing Farage seems misguided. I listened to BBC and it was all the remain people could talk about.

someone willing to publicly dress down very powerful people (more often deserving than not) is a healthy thing

[Maltaran]

The problem with Farage (or rather, one of his problems) is that he's a rich guy trying to pretend he's a man of the people. In that respect, he's a lot like Trump (although probably less racist).

[A wilding]

1 hour ago, Maltrouane Fellaini said:

I assume part of the reason for Farage resigning is that a new UKIP leader would be better able to attract the Northern working class Labour leave voters, which is their obvious target demographic now.

Is Farage disinterested enough to think like that though? I very much get the impression that another thing he shares with Trump is the possession of a huge ego.