Chaircat Meow Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 20 hours ago, Bironic said: I would appreciate if someone who is british/or very experienced with british politics tries to explain to me in a few sentences what makes Jeremy Corbyn a bad leader for labour? From what I've read in our newspapers I do not agree with some of his statements, but I didn't like Tony Blair either... He has terrible ratings: most leaders of the opposition are ahead at this stage of the electoral cycle but Corbyn's Labour are hopelessly behind. He cannot command the respect of his party's MPs (look at the frontbench), and so he can't oppose effectively or give people any confidence he could actually govern the country if elected. His views on immigration, patriotism, foreign affairs and defence are not popular among both his working class base and the swing voters. He only appeals to young left-wing middle class graduates. He appears to be incompetent as a speaker and a manager. Why didn't you like Blair (just asking, I didn't either)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 @Chaircat Meow Thank you for the competent answer. So the best thing right now would be some sort of new elections within the labour party? Regarding Blair: When he governed I was still a teenager, without much experience. But I remember how Tony Blair was often praised by the media (in switzerland & italy where I lived) as the man who with his pragmatism brings the social-democratic ideals into the 21 century. I was just baffled and very angry that someone who was a member a leftist party goes into a war (Iraq) , without any proof, any reason, any legitimisation. I was actually more pissed about him than I was about Bush, because Bush was an american right-wing republican (although nowadays he seems rather moderate), I expected Bush to do such a thing. I didn't expect Blair to pursue the same foreign politics. There's an interview below where Roger Moore (Bowling for Columbine etc.) expresses a similar view. The part where he talks about Blair starts around the 5 minute mark. http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/michael-moore-documentary-donald-trump-chance/2016/06/10/id/733282/ Later on I heard that Blair converted to catholicism, I read that some of his policies where pretty similar to the ones of Margaret Thatcher and that they were rather inefficient. I remember reading something about the failure of public-private-partnerships in the british railway system. All these bits of information basically changed the way I thought about him. And I still think this way. In my eyes he went from cool britannia all the way to cruel britannia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 14 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said: He has terrible ratings: most leaders of the opposition are ahead at this stage of the electoral cycle but Corbyn's Labour are hopelessly behind. He cannot command the respect of his party's MPs (look at the frontbench), and so he can't oppose effectively or give people any confidence he could actually govern the country if elected. His views on immigration, patriotism, foreign affairs and defence are not popular among both his working class base and the swing voters. He only appeals to young left-wing middle class graduates. He appears to be incompetent as a speaker and a manager. Agree. He is a very divisive figure, creating a huge loyalty amongst those who are very left leaning, but unfortunately his policies and stance on most issues don't tie into the general feeling in the country, which is essentially right wing on a number of issues. Lots of people dismiss the claim he is unelectable because Labours membership has shot up since he became leader, but that doesn't really reflect what most people feel. I think its more that Lib Dems are now an irrelevant force and people are moving over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 I think all you need to know about Jeremy Corbyn is that in a head-to-head matchup poll against Theresa May for who would make the best Prime Minister, he came third. (He trailed 'Don't Know' by 12 points.) https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/03/voting-intention-conservative-lead-increases-fourt/ The reliability and accuracy of the poll may not be all it might be, but still, to come in third in a two-person contest is quite an achievement. Yet, this is the man who it seems Labour members want as their leader: I'm fully expecting he'll be re-elected. I strongly suspect that many Labour members right now simply don't care about winning the next election. They've given up, and prefer principled opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 There are always unexpected events, but if there were an election right now, then I think the Conservatives would win about 380 seats, to about 180 for Labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 I really think the Labour party needs to break apart. Corbyn can create the new Lib Dem / Green party and someone else can create a party that might actually have some chance of being elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 5 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: I really think the Labour party needs to break apart. Corbyn can create the new Lib Dem / Green party and someone else can create a party that might actually have some chance of being elected. The problem is, both sides in this scenario would want the Labour name. There are various reasons for this. The most charitable (and it's also true) is that both sides regard themselves as the 'real' Labour party, in spirit. But also, if you look at the YouGov link above, you can find another poll that shows lots of Labour voters saying that in the event of a split, they'd keep voting for the party which is named 'Labour' regardless of which side that is - the Corbynistas or the moderates. That party would also presumably also keep most of the existing resources (funding, union support, party infrastructure, etc.), as well as the core vote. So, even if either side wanted a split - and I'm not convinced this is a popular notion - neither would want to leave and let the other have the Labour name. Instead, they'd have to force the other side out. And that would get messy. Really, really messy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 6 minutes ago, mormont said: The problem is, both sides in this scenario would want the Labour name. There are various reasons for this. The most charitable (and it's also true) is that both sides regard themselves as the 'real' Labour party, in spirit. But also, if you look at the YouGov link above, you can find another poll that shows lots of Labour voters saying that in the event of a split, they'd keep voting for the party which is named 'Labour' regardless of which side that is - the Corbynistas or the moderates. That party would also presumably also keep most of the existing resources (funding, union support, party infrastructure, etc.), as well as the core vote. So, even if either side wanted a split - and I'm not convinced this is a popular notion - neither would want to leave and let the other have the Labour name. Instead, they'd have to force the other side out. And that would get messy. Really, really messy. Good point. Its funny that Labour doesn't really seem to represent the 'labour force' for most people any more and that is probably the issue. Sure they have the funding of the Unions behind them, but in many ways that is more of a problem than it is an asset, as in many peoples eyes Unions are corrupt and just cause all those strikes people don't like. It could all get messy, I think we might end up with another decade of Tory rule until Labour sorts itself out, because it is a total trainwreck at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 1 hour ago, mormont said: I strongly suspect that many Labour members right now simply don't care about winning the next election. They've given up, and prefer principled opposition. There is an element of that. I'm fairly sick of voting either for Labour just to keep the Tories out or Green when I find it impossible to vote for Labour. But also, I simply don't believe Labour can win for the foreseeable future and all this in-fighting is making things even worse. But it would be foolish not to accept that Corbyn hasn't managed to win support that wasn't naturally going to be his. He needed to start a social movement that would gather more people to his cause who wouldn't naturally lean his way. That just hasn't happened. I wanted to hear from Owen Smith but I am not impressed by his challenge so far, even though I know someone who works on his campaign and has been trying desperately hard to convince people on Facebook that Smith is the best way to go. Can Owen Smith lead the Labour party to Government? I think he has about as much chance as Corbyn does, frankly. I cannot see a Labour opposition standing any chance until the Tories do something that alienates a big chunk of voters. For that reason, I think it doesn't matter what Labour does right now. The Tories have it all in their own hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 No posts at all for over a week, I guess we're all distracted by something... https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13690606_1844784915809555_7268642869396900400_n.jpg?oh=40368c525eaeb62502ade5ccb4417ea1&oe=5819351F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 There's a good article here from Anthony Wells about Labour's current performance. http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 49 minutes ago, Which Tyler said: No posts at all for over a week, I guess we're all distracted by something... https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13690606_1844784915809555_7268642869396900400_n.jpg?oh=40368c525eaeb62502ade5ccb4417ea1&oe=5819351F Good lord, the pixels. But I think it's more likely the Olympics, I haven't really heard anything about Pokemon Go for the last week, the news got a bit interested in it for a while but seem to have dropped it. (My main news source is radio so maybe TV is different.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Of course it's the Olympics, but I don't have a meme for that (not my meme BTW, not my pixels) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 Well, Brexit has already had one effect on immigration at least. Quote increase in interest from Brits wanting to move to New Zealand since Brexit referendum In 49 days after the vote, there were 10,647 registrations from the UK compared with 4599 over the same period last year. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11698368 That's what we need, more whinging poms. Of course it's only OK if they're white because idiot racists exist here too. Quote Racist slur on Hamilton election billboard The word Isis has been spray painted over a sign featuring Hamilton City Council candidate Yugraj Singh Mahil. Tagging on a Sikh council candidate's sign shows society has gone backwards in its attitudes, says a prominent Sikh. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/83407036/racist-slur-on-hamilton-election-billboard That's just...well it is in Hamilton, the chlamydia capital of New Zealand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Small gift for the philosophy nerds. I stumbled over a Habermas interview on Brexit and the future of the EU. Link for those who are interested, for those who are not just ignore this post and proceed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37161480 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Corbyn train shenanigans I'm not even mad just disappointed. It's such an inane and silly thing to fake, not to mention the fact that he did it in a place covered in cameras that can contradict him or the fact that there's enough train services where if you got on at peak hours you wouldn't need to fake it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 It's somehow such a wonderfully British scandal, though. Exposed for pretending to be polite and self-effacing on a train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 It's up there with Pastygate as something that would make Yes Minister writers green with envy. On the other hand, you've got passengers now backing Corbyn's interpretation of events: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/passengers-dispute-virgin-trains-version-of-jeremy-corbyn-sitting-on-floor-video-a7205631.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 On 06/08/2016 at 3:32 AM, Chaircat Meow said: Looking to liven up your life? Look no further. Take this test on buzzfeed to determine how Blairite you are! https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/what-percent-blairite-are-you?utm_term=.adm56yMa4#.airqaJGv7 My result: ''You Got: I'm 31% Blairite! You're officially not a Blairite! You may or may not be a Jeremy Corbyn fan, but just because there's been a challenge to his leadership, doesn't mean you're about to abandon your politics.'' If you got near a 100% they call you 'Blairite Scum' apparently. In other news: I am distressed that the cybernats have driven David Torrance off twitter. I like David Torrance. I only learnt yesterday how close Russell Square is to my route back to King's Cross Station. I narrowly missed the knifeman on Wednesday! You Got: I'm 42% Blairite!You're somewhere between being a Blairite and not being a Blairite...which probably means you get yelled at by both sides of the Great Corbyn Divide! Mostly, though, you just want this horror show to be over. I'm 42% Blairite yet I chose I'd carry out a citizen's arrest on him and I thought he should be prosecuted for war crimes over Iraq. OK I guess. Of course I wish there were some none of the above options, like the cat question, or in that case a "dogs ftw!" option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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