Heresy 188

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

Why do you think that blue winter roses are linked to shame by the Starks? They keep them in their winter gardens and Lyanna statue in the crypt has a crown of winter roses. The story of Bael the Bard is not known south of the wall.

Not the roses "directly" it was the entirety of Rhaegar's gesture that sparked the negative reaction and it is on account of the Bael the Bard story.You think Rhaegar,bookish Rhaegar might not have come across that tale.A tale that if it wasn't known south of the wall by some.How did it end up in Yandel's book? Lyanna's actuall statue in the crypt doesn't have winter roses,that's only in Ned's dream.

 

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Quite - Jon didn't even know it

Bran never heard the story of Harrenhall,something that Meera was suprised Brann didn't know. Therefore,its safe to say from that and the fact for instance Ashara's name was never heard again in WF means that they are good at keeping certain secrets.

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Actually, yes, in this instance Rhaegar was dishonorable, he was disrespectful. This is precisely how I view Rhaegar Targaryen, especially in his final days. Just because I think Rhaegar legitimately loved Lyanna, that doesn't mean that I actually view Rhaegar as a good or even a tragic figure.

Edit: Also, for the sake of not filling the thread with perpetual walls of text, I'm probably not going to do another point-by-point response, so I hope you won't view it as a sign of disrespect if I respond in the future in a more condensed manner, without individually addressing every single area where we disagree.

I agree Rhaegar's gesture was disrespectful we aren't at odds there.My point being if is was a romantic gesture or one done to impress Lyanna it failed misreably.As i pointed out he could have held the bunch of roses out at the end of his lance for her to take,after he gestured respectfully to his cousin and to her brothers.If it was a matter of "politicking" for support you could have slipped a message in the crown,sent a message to Rickard with the person you sent to get the roses from WF.So many paths of least resistence to take but didn't.

Its ok if you believe Rhaegar loved Lyanna.I'mjust saying there's no proof of that,no inside information which isn't an oversight IMO.It flies in the face again with the theme what people believe based on preconcieved notions of chivilry and romanticism yeah.This is is a theme.Dany believes if Daario loved her he would have stolen her away like Rhaegar did his northern girl.Yet,we heard what Barristan told Dany about that.She raitionalized that (1) Somehow Elia displeased Rhaegar (2) It must have been love because the other means Rhaegar was a douche.

Barristan in his mind thought it had to do with Elia being sickly.Kevan thought Lyanna a wild kind of beauty.All at the core the same thing he had feelings for her that's why he did it.But no one questions wait outside of that event at Harrenhall where he crowned her there was absoultely nothing.No inkling from anyone,any inside info that Rhaegar said umfp about Lyanna.

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

We cannot declare either way how Barristan came to the conclusion that he holds, and lacking contradictory points of view, I don't think it's enough to just say he could be wrong. Barristan's view reinforces the existing context. As to his historical examples of people who chose love to the detriment of the realm, several are quite apt; the Prince of Dragonflies, in particular, is important because Summerhall is a recurring theme of Rhaegar's characterization.

Mathhew its not just Selmy...Its all Rhaegar's cohorts that are alive.No one has any inside information that Rhaegar even thought of Lyanna after that event.

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Brandon is characterized as a hothead, and this is entirely consistent with that characterization. Yet again, "Brandon heard about Lyanna" and then proceeding to challenge Rhaegar reinforces what the reader knows, rather than contradicting it. It may be framed ambiguously enough to allow for doubt, but that doesn't mean that doubt is the most logical conclusion.

As a reader I don't know that Rhaegar ran off with or kidnapped Lyanna .I have many reasons within the scope of the story to doubt that.Plus what's the point of casting doubt unto something such as that? It let's us know at least some of us that we need to question what Brandon heard.What he heard didn't urge him to ask for his sister back,it pressed him to call Rhaegar out to die.That be the point.

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Because GRRM is trusting that his readers can infer the meaning of a conversation without having to have everything spelled out in meticulous detail, in contrast to the unsubtle approach that the show takes.

Where the ambiguity arises doesn't support that though.If Brandon had acted all rash and gone and demanded Lyanna back.Fine! It didn't happen that way.I think what Brandon heard was that Lyanna was preggers.Based on Harrenhall and what Rhaegar did,made the leap Brandon didn't go home to find out anything he acted rash  went to the Red  keep and ...You know the rest.

Its strange that supposedly your sister is missing, the war is coming to a close and you (Ned)go to fight the rest of the battles? Their behavior doesn't jive

Hell Robb had asked for his sisters back,Cersie and Jamie asked for  Tyrion back...Starks? Nooo.Nahhhh not only doesn't make sense it raises questions about the validity of what happened and when.

 

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

To get back to my list of questions, my point wasn't that you need to answer those questions, it's that you shouldn't have to answer those questions. The very act of creating a list of questions that we need answered results in a clunky narrative, it demands that some character who knows "the real deal" pop up and give us paragraph upon paragraph of exposition to explain all of the contradictions that are created by taking Lyanna and Rhaegar out of Dorne, and making her abduction a lie.

I apologize when you said "we need to answer these questions" i thought you actually meant it.

Wheel /within wheels. Littlefinger saying not to trust him-Wheel.When he say not to trust him and he betrays Ned its like yeah should have seen that coming.Did you see the Littlefinger manipulated Lysa to kill Jon Arryn in order to set all that crap in motion? I didn't see that.Went back and the subtle signs were there,but that wasn't in your face-Within a wheel.

In the end its a matter of it being answered or not by GRRM.That's the great thing about this series different people see different things that they thing are clues that points to X. 

The clues i see tell me Rhaegar wasn't in love with Lyanna,had nothing to do with her disppearence

[Melifeather]

IMO Tywin led Rhaegar to believe that an alliance was possible and he may even be the mystery backer of the tourney, but Tywin was always about getting revenge on the Targaryens. His long tenure as Hand included more slights and offenses than was tolerable and he plotted to kill the whole gang of dragons and their spawn. He played Rhaegar letting him think he was on his side and then worked behind the scenes to find a way to put Cersei on the iron throne by conspiring with Jon Arryn to marry Cersei to Robert. This agreement actually led to Lyanna's abduction by a Rhaegar imposter, who I believe was played by Robert Baratheon. The plan came together nearly without a hitch, but all that matters is Tywin got exactly what he wanted in the end.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Its ok if you believe Rhaegar loved Lyanna.I'mjust saying there's no proof of that,no inside information which isn't an oversight IMO.It flies in the face again with the theme what people believe based on preconcieved notions of chivilry and romanticism yeah.This is is a theme.

I agree that there's no definitive proof of what Rhaegar actually felt, I'm just leaning toward what I personally feel the preponderance of the 'evidence' supports; that doesn't mean that conclusion is correct, only that it's a purposely crafted context, either because GRRM is being misleading, or because it's the accurate context.

Lacking any strong, text-based alternative context, I'm inclined to accept the straightforward interpretation--with an awareness that what I believe I know could be entirely upended by, say, a revealing Jon Connington chapter, or w/e.

As to themes, you're not wrong, but characters choosing love over duty - almost always with tragic results - has also been a recurring theme.

I'm also inclined to give some credence to the show, and I know we disagree on that; nonetheless, it is now Show Universe canon that Jon Snow is Lyanna's son, that he was born after RR ended, and that Rhaegar (for some reason) had ordered the Kingsguard to keep watch at the ToJ. Nothing - not even SSMs - is book canon until the second it's published, but I do think this moves the plausibility needle more toward RLJ and AD+L=J.

[Black Crow]

Aside from simplifying things by reducing the cast and making that explicit link between the baby and Jon Snow [and after all the mummers correctly answered the question about Jon's mum] the depiction of events was indeed canon:

 

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

 

We don't, obviously, know at this stage what that order was, but its all already in the book and notwithstanding all the fools jumping up and down declaring that R+L=J had been confirmed. It was not. All we got was what's already in the book and that SSM

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Not the roses "directly" it was the entirety of Rhaegar's gesture that sparked the negative reaction and it is on account of the Bael the Bard story.You think Rhaegar,bookish Rhaegar might not have come across that tale.A tale that if it wasn't known south of the wall by some.How did it end up in Yandel's book? Lyanna's actuall statue in the crypt doesn't have winter roses,that's only in Ned's dream.

 

Using an obscure reference to Bael the Bard to insult the Starks was not needed. Rhaegar declaring Lyanna his queen of love and beauty was already an insult to the Baratheons, the male Starks and the Martells. How Lyanna took the public sexual advance of Rhaegar, we don't know; but she was not happy with her engagement with Robert and she cried when Rhaegar sang.

[Queen of Winter]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO Tywin led Rhaegar to believe that an alliance was possible and he may even be the mystery backer of the tourney, but Tywin was always about getting revenge on the Targaryens. His long tenure as Hand included more slights and offenses than was tolerable and he plotted to kill the whole gang of dragons and their spawn.

At least this much I agree with. Tywin was just biding his time IMHO.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 with the person you sent to get the roses from WF.

It might not be important but if this is the case, I'd be interested in knowing who exactly was sent to procure the roses, since I believe they grow only in the glassgardens of Winterfell. And what would be their story for wanting them, how did they go about getting them etc. (It's kinda like, "one does not simply walk into Mordor...." )

[Brad Stark]

" a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her"

Any idea who this is?  If " the young knight as tall as Hodor" is Duncan, and the visions are reverse chronological, and the child would have been born between 200AC-260AC.  A lot of people assume the baby is a Stark - we don't know that, it could be a commoner or a girl or stillborn.

We don't know exactly why the pregnant women wanted a son, but it is unlikely she already had another - also she doesn't want her husband to avenge her, so it is likely he's dead (unless he is who she wants vengeance against).  So we are looking for a boy only child or older sisters.

Rickard (as well as his father Edwyle) is an only child.  I can't find any other Starks who fit.  If this is him, could his "Southron Ambitions" be his way of getting vengeance?  The marriages between great houses were the idea of his maester, so if there is a plot, it is likely his.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Queen of Winter said:

At least this much I agree with. Tywin was just biding his time IMHO.

It might not be important but if this is the case, I'd be interested in knowing who exactly was sent to procure the roses, since I believe they grow only in the glassgardens of Winterfell. And what would be their story for wanting them, how did they go about getting them etc. (It's kinda like, "one does not simply walk into Mordor...." )

The Starks may have brought the roses since the tourney happened during the False Spring. There may not have been any natural flowers growing out of doors.

[Mace Cooterian]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

" a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her"

Any idea who this is?  If " the young knight as tall as Hodor" is Duncan, and the visions are reverse chronological, and the child would have been born between 200AC-260AC.  A lot of people assume the baby is a Stark - we don't know that, it could be a commoner or a girl or stillborn.

We don't know exactly why the pregnant women wanted a son, but it is unlikely she already had another - also she doesn't want her husband to avenge her, so it is likely he's dead (unless he is who she wants vengeance against).  So we are looking for a boy only child or older sisters.

Rickard (as well as his father Edwyle) is an only child.  I can't find any other Starks who fit.  If this is him, could his "Southron Ambitions" be his way of getting vengeance?  The marriages between great houses were the idea of his maester, so if there is a plot, it is likely his.

Nice quote.  My books are in storage; what book and chapter does this originate?

Sounds like the Weirwood tree outside Winterfell....but that is a big assumption on my part, without a point of reference.

[Black Crow]

Its that time scrolling backwards vision which Bran has while hooked up to the weirwood in the Heart of Darkness. It is indeed the pool beside the weirwood in Winterfell.

[Tucu]

6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

" a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her"

Any idea who this is?  If " the young knight as tall as Hodor" is Duncan, and the visions are reverse chronological, and the child would have been born between 200AC-260AC.  A lot of people assume the baby is a Stark - we don't know that, it could be a commoner or a girl or stillborn.

We don't know exactly why the pregnant women wanted a son, but it is unlikely she already had another - also she doesn't want her husband to avenge her, so it is likely he's dead (unless he is who she wants vengeance against).  So we are looking for a boy only child or older sisters.

Rickard (as well as his father Edwyle) is an only child.  I can't find any other Starks who fit.  If this is him, could his "Southron Ambitions" be his way of getting vengeance?  The marriages between great houses were the idea of his maester, so if there is a plot, it is likely his.

This is probably a plug for the incoming/delayed novella The She Wolves of Winterfell. Synopsis: "The novella is set in Winterfell. It will feature Ser Duncan the Tall and Egg, who will meet "the She-Wolves": a group of formidable Stark wives, widows, mothers and grandmothers. Four may be widows of previous Lords of Winterfell, and one the current Lady Stark whose husband Beron Stark is dying from a wound taken while fighting Ironborn"

[Black Crow]

Quite so and opinion is divided as to whether its been delayed because he's exercising a bit of discipline and concentrating of Winds or whether its going to reveal something that might be a spoiler for Winds.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

 The marriages between great houses were the idea of his maester, so if there is a plot, it is likely his.

I'm wary of blaming the maester or maesters entirely. Given that their real power lies in controlling communications through the ravens its difficult to say whether an idea whispered by a maester originates with him or with someone else entirely. Clearly there has to be a degree of complicity on the part of the maester but that aint the same as  being the originator.

[The Chequered Raven]

On 5.7.2016 at 4:45 AM, Muttering Ed said:

Are you saying that you support this? If so, thanks.

This!

You're welcome!  ;-)

[Brad Stark]

11 hours ago, Tucu said:

This is probably a plug for the incoming/delayed novella The She Wolves of Winterfell. Synopsis: "The novella is set in Winterfell. It will feature Ser Duncan the Tall and Egg, who will meet "the She-Wolves": a group of formidable Stark wives, widows, mothers and grandmothers. Four may be widows of previous Lords of Winterfell, and one the current Lady Stark whose husband Beron Stark is dying from a wound taken while fighting Ironborn"

Beron Stark dying from a wound fighting Ironborn certainly is a reason to pray for revenge, but Beron had 5 sons.  If you already had 4 sons, would you pray for a son to avenge you?  Also the women is praying for a son to avenge HER, not to avenge her husband, or possibly just bad wording, but GRRM is usually good at that.  This is too early in the timeline, if the next vision is Duncan, and they are in order and getting further apart.

[Brad Stark]

If Rickard's Southron Ambitions were about vengence, and not a power grab, who would they be against?  Certainly not someone in the marriage pact, which leaves Tyrell, Martell, as well as Targaryen.  Does anyone know of any great houses that intermarried with these 3?

[Black Crow]

There's no reason to believe that Rickard's ambitions were about vengeance, or at least not directly. As I suggested above there was most likely a plot in progress to oust all the Targaryens, not just the Mad King. The possible connection to the Isle of Faces might point to something deeper than mere politics.

[Melifeather]

I thought the premise of the Wolves novella was an ailing lord with no male heir?

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I thought the premise of the Wolves novella was an ailing lord with no male heir?

News to me - not disputing it but I've not heard this. Framed that way the scenario sounds very like Bael the Bard.

[wolfmaid7]

On 7/8/2016 at 2:23 PM, Matthew. said:

I agree that there's no definitive proof of what Rhaegar actually felt, I'm just leaning toward what I personally feel the preponderance of the 'evidence' supports; that doesn't mean that conclusion is correct, only that it's a purposely crafted context, either because GRRM is being misleading, or because it's the accurate context.

Lacking any strong, text-based alternative context, I'm inclined to accept the straightforward interpretation--with an awareness that what I believe I know could be entirely upended by, say, a revealing Jon Connington chapter, or w/e.

As to themes, you're not wrong, but characters choosing love over duty - almost always with tragic results - has also been a recurring theme.

I'm also inclined to give some credence to the show, and I know we disagree on that; nonetheless, it is now Show Universe canon that Jon Snow is Lyanna's son, that he was born after RR ended, and that Rhaegar (for some reason) had ordered the Kingsguard to keep watch at the ToJ. Nothing - not even SSMs - is book canon until the second it's published, but I do think this moves the plausibility needle more toward RLJ and AD+L=J.

Your right ofcourse,what everyone in story believes could be the case.Rhaegar could have been enthralled by this wild beauty and Lyanna could have been slain by a song,or Rhaegar could have kidnapped her and raped her,or they felll in love during her hostage stay.To me one is an accident,two times a coincidence ,and three a pattern no? 

I can't say there's any lack in text base alternative context it's all in what you see ( everyone see's a female Cat ) Everyone "knows" Rhaegar took Lyanna because he loved her or took her and raped her (some see the torn ear and the balls nestled beneath fur).

Maybe JonCon and Selmy may have something to add,i don't think so.For the fact that JonCon was moaning about Elia and not about Lyanna being with his precious Rhaegar.Barristan Selmy pretty much says he doesn't know what was in Rhaegar's heart and goes off on Elia being sickly as possibly the reason.So again,don't know what they could add on the subject.

Until then we have to wait and see.I'm not concerned about the show GRRM's said what he's said on that point and i'm inclined to stick with that.

On 7/8/2016 at 2:37 PM, Black Crow said:

Aside from simplifying things by reducing the cast and making that explicit link between the baby and Jon Snow [and after all the mummers correctly answered the question about Jon's mum] the depiction of events was indeed canon:

 

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

 

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

We don't, obviously, know at this stage what that order was, but its all already in the book and notwithstanding all the fools jumping up and down declaring that R+L=J had been confirmed. It was not. All we got was what's already in the book and that SSM

Very true.

On 7/8/2016 at 3:00 PM, Tucu said:

Using an obscure reference to Bael the Bard to insult the Starks was not needed. Rhaegar declaring Lyanna his queen of love and beauty was already an insult to the Baratheons, the male Starks and the Martells. How Lyanna took the public sexual advance of Rhaegar, we don't know; but she was not happy with her engagement with Robert and she cried when Rhaegar sang.

Him crowning Lyanna wasn't an insult to "her" it insulted his wife.Had the Starks taken Robert's "initial" cue and say "Rhaegar was just giving Lyanna her do"  would it have been an insult? Ofcourse not.It lay in how they took it.It was offensive to them just as Ned went cray cray because LF said "Cat was inside the brothel" which was true what Ned took from that was LF saying Cat was a whore.I disagree it was a public sexual "advance" on the grounds that would be "batshit crazy" for Rhaegar to do "like that" he could have taken 3 different paths that wouldn't cast doubt on Lyanna's virtue.

On 7/8/2016 at 3:42 PM, Queen of Winter said:

At least this much I agree with. Tywin was just biding his time IMHO.

It might not be important but if this is the case, I'd be interested in knowing who exactly was sent to procure the roses, since I believe they grow only in the glassgardens of Winterfell. And what would be their story for wanting them, how did they go about getting them etc. (It's kinda like, "one does not simply walk into Mordor...." )

They got it somehow ,but IMO i think the roses were taken from WF because they were rare and the event which was already lavish called for such things.It made for something more grand occassion.For all we know the Starks could have brought them,Whent could have sent for them.It was Tourney.