Heresy 188

[wolfmaid7]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The text does not provide any examples of skin changer taking over another skinchanger which I imagine would be extremely difficult to do if not impossible seeing that Thistle was able to fight off Varamyr who himself was a very powerful warg and skinchanger controlling several animals at once.

Conceptually its possible V6 introduced that possibility.The only reason Thistle was able to fight off V6's takeover was because he was near death.Had he not been you know dying,it would be as easy as Bran taking Hodor.I see no reason why a powerful Skinchanger can't subdue another.V6 did it to Orell by subduing his conciouness in his own animal.

Bran is married to the Weirwood where BR is,he's in his tree what's to stop the BR collective from subduing Bran's collective.Though it won't be hard they may not even have to now that Bran is going a ittle sympathetic.

[Brad Stark]

Anyone give any thoughts to Bran the Breaker?  Did he break the pact with the children?  What did he break?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Conceptually its possible V6 introduced that possibility.The only reason Thistle was able to fight off V6's takeover was because he was near death.Had he not been you know dying,it would be as easy as Bran taking Hodor.I see no reason why a powerful Skinchanger can't subdue another.V6 did it to Orell by subduing his conciouness in his own animal.

Bran is married to the Weirwood where BR is,he's in his tree what's to stop the BR collective from subduing Bran's collective.Though it won't be hard they may not even have to now that Bran is going a ittle sympathetic.

Orell was dead when V6 took the eagle, and unable to keep V6 out.

[Dornish Neck Tie]

9 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah Voice and i kind of have the same theory on this with a bit of difference.I think the original BTB has been pulling a "Varamyrsixskins" on Wargs.Luring them via dreams to the cave and taking over their bodies when his previous current body is about to die and become nothing but bones and roots thus "the collective" Its essentially him and the shadow of all the other Wargs he dupped on his soul.

This is eerily reminiscent of how the Faceless Men operate, isn't it? Chew people up and spit them back out as unwilling tools of a mostly anonymous collective.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Anyone give any thoughts to Bran the Breaker?  Did he break the pact with the children?  What did he break?

There doesn't appear to be anything linked to him so breaking a pact is the most likely answer although that's not to say it was the Pact. Good possibility it was I'd say, but we just don't know.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

This is eerily reminiscent of how the Faceless Men operate, isn't it? Chew people up and spit them back out as unwilling tools of a mostly anonymous collective.

Very much so and a constant theme of the book, whether we're talking about the tree-huggers and their greenseers [whether under the bed or not] and various other brotherhoods. Interesting also to compare with the Greeshka in GRRM's Song for Lya

[Melifeather]

When Orell died his spirit remained in the eagle. V6 took the eagle and Orell couldn't keep him out, neither could Orell leave the eagle and go into another host. Once a warg/skinchanger's original body dies and their spirit is in another host they cannot leave.

[wolfmaid7]

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Orell was dead when V6 took the eagle, and unable to keep V6 out.

You miss my meaning..Orell is dead yet he is still able to affect V6 feelings for Jon.Bran is connected to a Weirwood that is a collective of how many Wargs who have seen how many atrocities.He's already becoming sympathetic just from hearing the COTF sing.So if Orell could affect how v6 felt about Jon,how much so can the collective affect Bran.

9 hours ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

This is eerily reminiscent of how the Faceless Men operate, isn't it? Chew people up and spit them back out as unwilling tools of a mostly anonymous collective.

Yep they use you for what they think is necessary but in the end your No one and they get to use your meat sac.

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Very much so and a constant theme of the book, whether we're talking about the tree-huggers and their greenseers [whether under the bed or not] and various other brotherhoods. Interesting also to compare with the Greeshka in GRRM's Song for Lya

Very true.

48 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

When Orell died his spirit remained in the eagle. V6 took the eagle and Orell couldn't keep him out, neither could Orell leave the eagle and go into another host. Once a warg/skinchanger's original body dies and their spirit is in another host they cannot leave.

My above answer still stands when it comes to Orell's affect on V6.

Bran is basically talking to a corpse .BR for all intent and purpose is a dead man under the hill.Apart of a collective that can skinchange anything.He and the others can't Hodor or Haggon Bran if need be why Feather?

They honestly don't need to all they have to do is "teach" Bran.As i said all that 10 year old little boy needs to do is buy what they are selling.That will make it easy to subdue him.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

You miss my meaning..Orell is dead yet he is still able to affect V6 feelings for Jon.Bran is connected to a Weirwood that is a collective of how many Wargs who have seen how many atrocities.He's already becoming sympathetic just from hearing the COTF sing.So if Orell could affect how v6 felt about Jon,how much so can the collective affect Bran.

Yep they use you for what they think is necessary but in the end your No one and they get to use your meat sac.

Very true.

My above answer still stands when it comes to Orell's affect on V6.

Bran is basically talking to a corpse .BR for all intent and purpose is a dead man under the hill.Apart of a collective that can skinchange anything.He and the others can't Hodor or Haggon Bran if need be why Feather?

They honestly don't need to all they have to do is "teach" Bran.As i said all that 10 year old little boy needs to do is buy what they are selling.That will make it easy to subdue him.

Ok the point you are making here I agree with. V6 told Jon he could feel Orell's hatred for Jon, just as Bran should be able to feel the collective godhead and be influenced by it. But I wasn't commenting on this aspect. I was discussing the inability of wargs and skinchangers to leave their second life host.

[wolfmaid7]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ok the point you are making here I agree with. V6 told Jon he could feel Orell's hatred for Jon, just as Bran should be able to feel the collective godhead and be influenced by it. But I wasn't commenting on this aspect. I was discussing the inability of wargs and skinchangers to leave their second life host.

Oh yeah once they die and get pulled into their familiar that's pretty much a done deal which is why Bran is in such a vulnerable position.He has now been married to the Weirwoods and like BR if he dies there's  likely no going into Summer.He's going into the collective just like BR.Sons of bitches hijacked his second life to Summer if he should die.

This is possible,remember though violently V6 denied Haggon a second life by ripping Haggon away from his wolf.

Now the point about Bran getting subdued is a more subtle affair.They don't need to Skinchange Bran though they could they just need to bring him to a point where he's buing whatever they are selling.No matter the purpose.

[Remdawg]

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

With Jon's third eye now open,it would be interesting to see how he's seen.I have a feeling just as Bran is tree and wolf.Jon could  be Crow and wolf.

Has there been a larger discussion of one of the possible outcomes of Jon's death being him having crow dreams or a telepathic link to Bran or the 3EC or BR? Seems to maybe make more sense as we take a look at the idea of Euron being a failed recruit and how someone ends up being "recruited" communicated with. 

Is there also a possibility that Dany being "reborn" in the funeral pyre makes her more accessible to Quaithe or the Visions in the HotU?

 

Reaching further down the rabbit hole - Is there something about dying/being reborn that makes one more in tune or able to be tuned in? If one could imagine BR/3EC/Quaithe as some sort of radio frequency communication, are the wights not doing the same thing but instead of information it's hive mind commands/control like flying drones or RF cars, etc.

 

sorry if this has been covered already

[Black Crow]

26 minutes ago, Remdawg said:

Has there been a larger discussion of one of the possible outcomes of Jon's death being him having crow dreams or a telepathic link to Bran or the 3EC or BR? Seems to maybe make more sense as we take a look at the idea of Euron being a failed recruit and how someone ends up being "recruited" communicated with. 

Is there also a possibility that Dany being "reborn" in the funeral pyre makes her more accessible to Quaithe or the Visions in the HotU?

 

Reaching further down the rabbit hole - Is there something about dying/being reborn that makes one more in tune or able to be tuned in? If one could imagine BR/3EC/Quaithe as some sort of radio frequency communication, are the wights not doing the same thing but instead of information it's hive mind commands/control like flying drones or RF cars, etc.

 

sorry if this has been covered already

Up to a point. I can certainly see the possibility of Jon being contacted while in Ghost; something along the lines of being told he must wake up and go back, however reluctantly, to his own body.

I don't however see him suffering from greenseer fever

[Rodx]

Some one already think in the possibility of Duncan be Hodor's Father ? his size is a bit unnatural,maybe he is a giant bastard,Bran see a tall man talking to a woman in winterfell's past in his last POV of Dance ...

[Tucu]

17 minutes ago, Rodx said:

Some one already think in the possibility of Duncan be Hodor's Father ? his size is a bit unnatural,maybe he is a giant bastard,Bran see a tall man talking to a woman in winterfell's past in his last POV of Dance ...

He can't be his father, but maybe a grandfather or great grandfather.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Remdawg said:

Has there been a larger discussion of one of the possible outcomes of Jon's death being him having crow dreams or a telepathic link to Bran or the 3EC or BR? Seems to maybe make more sense as we take a look at the idea of Euron being a failed recruit and how someone ends up being "recruited" communicated with. 

Is there also a possibility that Dany being "reborn" in the funeral pyre makes her more accessible to Quaithe or the Visions in the HotU?

 

Reaching further down the rabbit hole - Is there something about dying/being reborn that makes one more in tune or able to be tuned in? If one could imagine BR/3EC/Quaithe as some sort of radio frequency communication, are the wights not doing the same thing but instead of information it's hive mind commands/control like flying drones or RF cars, etc.

 

sorry if this has been covered already

We haven't talked about this in depth or better yet its more accurate to say there's been different schools of thought on this.I'm in the camp that believes that Jon will be in a coma where he will finish his crypt dream. However,we have had Bran as a tree open his third eye.He's had wolfdreams of course and he's had a dream where the voice of Mormont's crow was substituited for the Moon in the dream.It was calling to him and he was trying to run away from it.My thinking is he won't be able to do that anymore.

I'm pretty sure an avatar will appear to Jon,what form  Anyone's guess.

45 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Up to a point. I can certainly see the possibility of Jon being contacted while in Ghost; something along the lines of being told he must wake up and go back, however reluctantly, to his own body.

I don't however see him suffering from greenseer fever

I think it depends....I for one think based on wind rising beyond the Wall Jon's about to get a kiss from "the cold" 

Bran's vision of him being in a cold bed growing pale and hard go hand in hand with the story of The Shrouded Lord.But who know how long Jon woill be out of commission for to be honest.All this to say coma or death Jon is not coming out of this the way he went in.

[Voice]

On 7/18/2016 at 6:31 PM, Brad Stark said:

Anyone give any thoughts to Bran the Breaker?  Did he break the pact with the children?  What did he break?

&:

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There doesn't appear to be anything linked to him so breaking a pact is the most likely answer although that's not to say it was the Pact. Good possibility it was I'd say, but we just don't know.

 

 

I just want to point out that Brandon the Breaker exists only in semi-canon, and when he exists, it is in conflict with the Night's King.

If he broke the Pact, which was ~2000 years old by that point, it had zero consequences as his deeds come at the end of the Long Night.

 

 

On 7/18/2016 at 9:40 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah Voice and i kind of have the same theory on this with a bit of difference.I think the original BTB has been pulling a "Varamyrsixskins" on Wargs.Luring them via dreams to the cave and taking over their bodies when his previous current body is about to die and become nothing but bones and roots thus "the collective" Its essentially him and the shadow of all the other Wargs he dupped on his soul.

Likewise i think Night's king  is The Last Hero,yeah i know Bran's treck through to the "other"side could be seen as a callback to the Last Hero i'm weary of that for other reasons mainly Rickon.

I think you might be right on the money with what D&D thinks about Night's King .If it is several different people holding one office as i believe ,an office that has an echo of several different people its is going to be very interesting indeed.This to me is the underpinning to the books concerning this.

I said it many times on here we are probably going to be seeing wights fighting wights before this series ends to give us an internal view of the real battle.

 

Yup, we have some fundamental differences in how we view greenseeing, but we're not too far apart on the BtB stuff. While he was likely gifted with green powers, I see his Other-powers arising from the learning and misuse of the language of the children of the forest.

He knew no fear, thus he could not be brave.

Coupled with his Moon Maiden, he would have been unstoppable.

The Vows of the Night's Watch are his words.

The Wall is his wall.

The Wall cannot stop the blue powers (see Othor and Jafer) but it can and does stop warging (see Jon's severed connection to Ghost).

Thus I view the Wall as a structure created by Brandon the Builder once he could make substances out of Ice. (Theories on such topics are flooding my signature box, if anyone is interested. LOL)

In any case, I'm glad to see you in the BtB=LH=NK camp Wolfmaid!

 

23 hours ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

This is eerily reminiscent of how the Faceless Men operate, isn't it? Chew people up and spit them back out as unwilling tools of a mostly anonymous collective.

&:

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Very much so and a constant theme of the book, whether we're talking about the tree-huggers and their greenseers [whether under the bed or not] and various other brotherhoods. Interesting also to compare with the Greeshka in GRRM's Song for Lya

 

While I agree somewhat, it should be pointed out that the Greeshka were not actively converting/recruiting humans, nor were they chewing them up and spitting them out. Like squirrels and, imo, the children of the forest, they are but at the mercy of the trees.

[Voice]

On 7/18/2016 at 8:20 AM, Matthew. said:

Although I do think there are a couple ways in which Voice's theory that Brandon the Builder, the NK (legendary), and the NK (modern) are all actually the same figure could be correct.

 

On 7/18/2016 at 8:20 AM, Matthew. said:

There's an interview with D&D where they talk about the idea of whether or not the NK would ever have any dialogue, and they decided against it because he's not supposed to be a villain, or evil; he's supposed to be a force of nature; a figure of death, blight, and winter.

Yup. And I don't really see him as a villain either. He founded House Stark after all. He just builds things with Ice, instead of stone. Poor guy is misunderstood. LOL

 

On 7/18/2016 at 2:07 PM, Matthew. said:

As an alternative, maybe that whole "13th LC" thing just isn't trustworthy. The books are already moving in the direction of the oral histories being unreliable, and Sam seemed as though he had something to say about the list (and number) of LCs.

When Old Nan talks about the 13th LC, who rules for 13 years, are these concrete facts? Could she recite the history, and the years of service of the 7th LC? Could she even name him? Or, before the NW changed leadership (and function) was it always the same "Night's King" ruling from the Nightfort, and it's only in legend that the truth has become misconstrued, and an ominous number has been ascribed to him? 13th LC, 13 years, LH and his 12 companions, the show's NK and his 12 companions in Oathkeeper...

It should be noted that Old Nan never says he was the 13th Lord Commander.

The term "lord" would not have been in use in the North until after the Andal Invasion of course. And thus, the language shifted.

Old Nan says that the Night's King was the "thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch" and that opens the door for the Last Hero interpretation. It was a less formal Watch in those days. There was no Wall. He began construction after consolidating the Night's Watch with strange sorceries.

 

I've laid it all out here.

 

 

On 7/18/2016 at 2:07 PM, Matthew. said:

For what it's worth, the show's version of the NK legend isn't exactly the same as the book version, since it's told from the perspective of Ygritte; in their version, the 13th LC isn't numbered, he's just the "King Crow" who found a cold thing in the Haunted Forest and came to love it.

 

I don't remember Ygritte ever mentioning NK. What episode was that?

[Voice]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

I don't remember Ygritte ever mentioning NK. What episode was that?

 

Nevermind @Matthew., found it:

 

[Black Crow]

And on that note time for a wrap.

 

See you on Heresy 189