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"They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away..."


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On 2.7.2016 at 0:40 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Speaking of which, I saw on Reddit - ceebs signing up to post there - that somebody said about Arthur Dayne:

For one we know that Arthur Dayne is based off of another character which GRRM has already written about who it turns out is not dead.

Anybody know what this refers to?

Theory goes Qhorin Halfhand is Arthur Dayne. And Mance is Rheagar.

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Right, folks, this isn't and needs not be as tinfoily as some folks would like it. All three Kingsguard being alive isn't very complicated.

The two that walked away were two out of seven, not out of ten. You can read that out of the sentence. Someone said Martin said somewhere only Ned and Howland survived, but if I've been building things up towards that reveal, I'd lie when asked, too. As he has before, and for good reason. And also - ofc the show makers would take everything a different way than the books, why spoil the books and potentially harm sales for the guy who wrote it all to begin with.

Also, the ever present question of "how would someone fake their death?" that gets repeated all the time as if it's so impossible. There are people who fake their death and fake their identiry IN THE BOOK ALREADY.

But before that:

One happens to be Barristan Selmy, (who fakes his identiry quite sucessfuly after... leaving of his own accord), and is such a mean ass-kicker while WAY past his prime that, according to people looking at the prospect of facng him, he could take 5 people on alone and win. So Gerold, Arthur and Oswell actually losing to the Starks party would be a miracle.

Also, Robert himself fantasizes about leaving. And to hear Jaime tell it, it's somewhat likely that Hightower was fed up with being a kingsguard due to Aerys.

As for folks faking their death:

Hightower is called The White Bull due to his very easily identified helmet. Whent also has a very easy to identify helmet. The HOUND has such an easily identified helment that two other people take it and other folks think the Hound is around and doing things, while he's... faking his own death. The Hound fakes his own death in a way either Hightower or Whent could have while being more conspicuous than Dayne is due to being the only famous guy with half his face burned off. ! ! ! Read the last sentence again just because ! ! ! Whent and Hightower could have ditched their helmets and walked away. Dayne would have a hard time blending in, but he ditched the sword and there's several places he could be. Hell, ARYA has trouble actually becoming "noone" because she won't ditch her signature weapon, and Dayne did (as far as the general public is concerned)

Also, people, BLOODRAVEN faked his damned death. Ask anyone in Westeros is it possible that Brynden Rivers is still alive, they'd first ask you who that is and then tell you that there's no bloody way. (I certainly went "WTH, what is this bulls**t" when I first read it.)

Jon Connington faked his own death (or was a complete ass-pull from Martin that any of the three kingsguard turning out alive would actually make more sense than him even existing as a character. I also had a "WTH what is this bulls**t" moment when he appeared along with "Did he just make this guy up right now and is using the didn't-really-die thing as the lamest ever cover-up for lousy writing?". Honest to god, I swear.)

Davos faked his death - Stannis thinks Mandery killed him.

Mance Rayder's death was faked in an unreally bizzare and ludicrous way. Not to mention that he crashed every party ever held in Winterfell disguised as someone else.

Young Griff claims to be Aegon, who's death would then have been faked.

Jeyne Poole is married in place of Arya Stark, because Arya had dropped off the face of the earth and it's probable to suppose she's considered dead in-universe, too.

Bran is supposedly dead, too. So's Rickon. Their deaths have been faked for them (just not all that well).

Ramsay Bolton faked his death at one point, too.

Gregor Clegane's death is... dodgy, to say the least, but he's officially dead and people are even plotting to reveal that he's not. Even his skull is supposedly delivered to people who asked for him to be executed.

Berric Dondarion didn't so much fake his death, as come back from the dead.

Catelyn Stark, of all people, also turned out to not be dead.

That's just off the top of my head, there's likely a bunch if not a lot more of this sort of thing going on. Keep in mind that quite a few of these are complete unbelievable bulls**t compared to the idea od the 3 Kingsguard being alive. As in, if I had not actually read the books up to that point and someone tried to tell me I'd disbelieve and thing they're tinfoiling like mad.

OH, and a Dance with Dragons has so much going on with charred bodies not being evidence of someone actually being dead that there's decent enough teories going around that claim Quentyn isn't in fact dead. I consider a few of them more sensible and less ludicrous than a bunch of stuff allready in the books, too.

So why is "Kingsguard is alive" so unreal to some people?

a) They had a way to fake their deaths:
- Two guys were willing to say they did kill them
- They could ditch their trademark bling (which seems to work for others)

b ) They have places to hide, even among friendly close-mouthed folks:
- The Hightower in Old Town (where people are currently hiding out of sight)
- The Quiet Isle (where a guy is doing exactly the same thing any of them would be doing, he deserted the Kingsguard, ditched his trademark helm and is chilling)
- The Isle of Faces (which is where Reed, one of their withnesses, spent a bunch of time and it also might provide conditions similar to the ones which preserved Bloodraven)
- Greywater Watch (also an island, exceptionally good hiding place as even if crannogmen knew anything they keep stuff to themselves, also home to one of the withnesses)

And those are just the most conspicuous places, like, ones where any of them could turn out to be or have been all along, King Arthur on the isle of Avalon style, it wouldn't even be tinfoil if it happened to turn out true.

Oh, and a ton of ASOIAF is recycled plots and characters from other Martin works, a lot of it from his long-running SF collection of stories happening in the same universe. ASOIAF is, when it's not Martin ripping off other people's stuff, mostly Martin recycling stuff from there (and there's quite a lot of recycling between those stories, too). His unpublished novel from that series was, I think, supposed to be called Avalon.

Which is the name of the isle where King arthur is resting and from where he will return, while folks think he is dead. Since I know how much of the other stories is recycled in ASOIAF, and I can tell quite well how much of other people's stuff is also recycled in it, I can bet you whatever you want that we're looking at a King Arthur plot in ASOIAF, or have been looking at one all along. Martin is a guy who gets a nice idea and then writes 10 stories about the same thing. Or even sees someone else have an idea and then does the same. And he shelved something called Avalon. I bet there's stuff from that shelved thing that's alleady been used in ASOIAF.

If it DOESN'T turn out the kingsguard are alive, it's going to be bizzare.

As to WHY they faked their death - who cares? Whatever it is it'll make for a cool-ass reveal.

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13 hours ago, lujo said:

Right, folks, this isn't and needs not be as tinfoily as some folks would like it. All three Kingsguard being alive isn't very complicated.

The two that walked away were two out of seven, not out of ten. You can read that out of the sentence. Someone said Martin said somewhere only Ned and Howland survived, but if I've been building things up towards that reveal, I'd lie when asked, too. As he has before, and for good reason. And also - ofc the show makers would take everything a different way than the books, why spoil the books and potentially harm sales for the guy who wrote it all to begin with.

So why is "Kingsguard is alive" so unreal to some people?

a) They had a way to fake their deaths:
- Two guys were willing to say they did kill them
- They could ditch their trademark bling (which seems to work for others)

b ) They have places to hide, even among friendly close-mouthed folks:
- The Hightower in Old Town (where people are currently hiding out of sight)
- The Quiet Isle (where a guy is doing exactly the same thing any of them would be doing, he deserted the Kingsguard, ditched his trademark helm and is chilling)
- The Isle of Faces (which is where Reed, one of their withnesses, spent a bunch of time and it also might provide conditions similar to the ones which preserved Bloodraven)
- Greywater Watch (also an island, exceptionally good hiding place as even if crannogmen knew anything they keep stuff to themselves, also home to one of the withnesses)

And those are just the most conspicuous places, like, ones where any of them could turn out to be or have been all along, King Arthur on the isle of Avalon style, it wouldn't even be tinfoil if it happened to turn out true.

Oh, and a ton of ASOIAF is recycled plots and characters from other Martin works, a lot of it from his long-running SF collection of stories happening in the same universe. ASOIAF is, when it's not Martin ripping off other people's stuff, mostly Martin recycling stuff from there (and there's quite a lot of recycling between those stories, too). His unpublished novel from that series was, I think, supposed to be called Avalon.

Which is the name of the isle where King arthur is resting and from where he will return, while folks think he is dead. Since I know how much of the other stories is recycled in ASOIAF, and I can tell quite well how much of other people's stuff is also recycled in it, I can bet you whatever you want that we're looking at a King Arthur plot in ASOIAF, or have been looking at one all along. Martin is a guy who gets a nice idea and then writes 10 stories about the same thing. Or even sees someone else have an idea and then does the same. And he shelved something called Avalon. I bet there's stuff from that shelved thing that's alleady been used in ASOIAF.

If it DOESN'T turn out the kingsguard are alive, it's going to be bizzare.

As to WHY they faked their death - who cares? Whatever it is it'll make for a cool-ass reveal.

The KG have a duty to protect the royal family up to and including sacrificing themselves.  The idea that the 3 KG present at the ToJ are in fact alive but disappeared somewhere after chopping up 5 of Ned's companions (but conveniently sparing Ned and Howland for some reason) abandoning Lyanna + baby who they had been assiduously guarding up to that point and making no attempt to join up with any of Viserys, pregnant queen Rhaella or Lyanna's presumably legitimate child, just rings false.

Why spare Ned and Howland?  If Ned / Howland knew something that would stay the swords why not reveal it before 5 of their close friends were turned into mincemeat?  Why did they raise eight cairns for the dead (5 of their companions and all 3 of the KG) if the KG all lived?  Why did the KG not join up with Viserys & Dany afterwards or remain with Jon?  Something is very off about the idea that they are lurking until the omens are right for a shocking reveal however "cool-ass" you might think that would be.

"but if I've been building things up towards that reveal, I'd lie when asked, too. As he has before, and for good reason"

Do you have an example in mind of GRRM lying about the story?  You seem to be suggesting he lies to folks in SSMs or the like but I may be misunderstanding you.  He doesn't as far as I'm aware.

Since I know how much of the other stories is recycled in ASOIAF...I can bet you whatever you want that we're looking at a King Arthur plot in ASOIAF

GRRM takes inspiration from many sources like any other author (The Wars of the Roses and Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow & Thorn trilogy are the two that he has talked about most re ASOIAF) but I don't agree at all that he's simply recycling other people's stories or myths and synthesising them into something where we can predict what might happen based on those other stories.  The outcome is going to be all his own and all the richer for it.

If it DOESN'T turn out the kingsguard are alive, it's going to be bizzare.

TBH there will be nothing bizarre about the 3 KG who supposedly died at the ToJ in fact turning out to have died at the ToJ.  Nor would there be anything particularly bizarre if Howland Reed just confirmed they died doing their duty and no one talked about them at all after that. The bizarre thing would be if Ned went to the ToJ and got five of his best friends killed before realising there was a better way to handle things!  He remembers the ToJ vividly in the fever dream and I take his sad remark to the KG "No, Now it ends" to mean just that: a fight to the death which only he and Howland survived.

As to WHY they faked their death - who cares?

But the why of it is the central point.  One moment they are prepared to die to prevent Ned and companions getting their hands on Lyanna's child, the next they abandon their duty and disappear?  That has to be explained somehow and thinking they are masquerading as other characters like Qhorin seems mere wishful thinking if you don't have a hypothesis for why all three would abandon the royal family.

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On July 1, 2016 at 5:32 PM, lujo said:

If some people faked their deaths, it would be the three kingsguard. Only two lived to ride away could reffer to the seven that came, or to only two officially living.

You might have noticed noone even tried to make a move on Selmy when he made his resignation, because he could mess them all up alone and they were pretty certain of it. The most likely outcome of that battle would be that Dayne, Hightower and Whent kicked their ass, but spared Ned and Reed because of something Reed told them.

They faked their deaths and that's why we never heard anything from either the Daynes, the Hightowers or the Whents, or ever saw Howland Reed himself. The real reveal is not that R + L = J, that's no mistery and rather pointless, it's that none of the Kingsguard died, and very importantly wth were they up to.

I buy this. I have long thought that Dayne survived the ToJ and a peace was brokered by Howland. Eventually clearer heads prevailed as Ned realized R+L and Dayne realized that his responsibility was to see to the safety of Jon now that Areys and Rhaegar were both dead.

I think that the decision that Jon would be safest with Ned up in the north and Arthur joined his sister in black haven to live a life of repose and quiet.

After Beric gives the kiss of life to Cat making her into lady facepalm (presumably her new name after she realizes that R+J=L) Edric Dayne, Beric's squire, will take his body back to Blackhaven for a burial where he will meet his legendary uncle, be knighted by him, do a yoda on dagobah training montage, and be named the new sword of the morning and then Arthur tells him about Jon before dying..

 

We already know that Edric is kind of bad ass and it would let. Newly Minted sword of the morning can than go north to find Jon recapitulating the relationship between Rhaegar and Arthur.

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6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The KG have a duty to protect the royal family up to and including sacrificing themselves.

Over the course of the book we're introduced to KG who kill the King, desert in the middle of combat, break all sorts of wows, leave the kingsguard, attempt to murder members of the royal family (mandon moore), sleep with the queen (several)...

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The idea that the 3 KG present at the ToJ are in fact alive but disappeared somewhere after chopping up 5 of Ned's companions (but conveniently sparing Ned and Howland for some reason) abandoning Lyanna + baby who they had been assiduously guarding up to that point and making no attempt to join up with any of Viserys, pregnant queen Rhaella or Lyanna's presumably legitimate child, just rings false.

Why exactly? This is plain and simply you having an idea about what the kingsguard are about and refusing to entertain a notion that they might have not been that. Even though the books are simply loaded with evidence to Kingsguard not being the knights in shinig armor they're advertized as. This paragraph is something early Sansa would say "I don't believe the Kingsguard are actually people! I want them to be true shining kinghts because what I'm reading is a fairytale!"

They obviously didn't abandon Lyanna + the baby, for crying out loud. Lyanna died right there, none of them could save her, they're asskickers not midwives. The baby was either Dany or Jon. If it was Dany - they DID smuggle her out somehow (probably via Starfall where the house with the Red door might easily turn out to be), and if it was Jon, well, entrusting him to Ned turned out pretty fine.

What were they to do? They were fed up with Aerys, and probably being kingsguard. They weren't the sort of people, individually, who'd want to keep that up. In case you haven't noticed, the only kingsguard who keep it up forever and ever are the likes of Meryn Trant, or Boros Blount or ultimately the zombie Gregor Clegane. Jaime does it out of defiance to his father and love for his sister at first, and then later out of spite for the cynical world around him. Whouldn't it be just perfectly ironic if it turns out he was actually the most noble of all of them, and that he tortured himself over immagined standards set by people far less ideal than he thought they were? (Not that they were necessarily bad people, at all).
 

 

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Why spare Ned and Howland?  If Ned / Howland knew something that would stay the swords why not reveal it before 5 of their close friends were turned into mincemeat?  Why did they raise eight cairns for the dead (5 of their companions and all 3 of the KG) if the KG all lived?  Why did the KG not join up with Viserys & Dany afterwards or remain with Jon?  Something is very off about the idea that they are lurking until the omens are right for a shocking reveal however "cool-ass" you might think that would be.

Because Ned is the uncle of whoever was just born? Because Howland knew Dayne's sister? The third question is legit, but it's really a minor point - maybe the attackers were yong and brash and only pleaded when it became obvious they'd lose? Maybe Ned also thought Lyanna was abducted and wouldn't listen to Howland and ordered his troop to attack thinking his sister ws being held against her will?

Why raise eith cairns? If you're trying to make it look like 8 people died, how many cairns would YOU riase? 17? What kind of question is this?

Why they didn't go with Viserys and Dany or Jon? Who knows? That's what the whole mistery is about, isn't it? More on that down.

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

"but if I've been building things up towards that reveal, I'd lie when asked, too. As he has before, and for good reason"

Do you have an example in mind of GRRM lying about the story?  You seem to be suggesting he lies to folks in SSMs or the like but I may be misunderstanding you.  He doesn't as far as I'm aware.

He lied about things that were happening in the show in front of the whole world, like Jon Snow being dead. Just off the top of my head. Again, this is being Sansa on your part, it just can't be that THE CREATOR is lying to us. If I was writing this stuff and this was my twist, I'd be lying to you, too.

The quiet isle elder brother lies right to Brienne's face about the hound being dead. We, the audience, can see this for a lie. Martin wrote that thing. He would lie to you.

 

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Since I know how much of the other stories is recycled in ASOIAF...I can bet you whatever you want that we're looking at a King Arthur plot in ASOIAF

GRRM takes inspiration from many sources like any other author (The Wars of the Roses and Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow & Thorn trilogy are the two that he has talked about most re ASOIAF) but I don't agree at all that he's simply recycling other people's stories or myths and synthesising them into something where we can predict what might happen based on those other stories.  The outcome is going to be all his own and all the richer for it.

This, again, is just being protective of your own taste. You sound like you need Martin to "be all his own and all the richer for it". I don't need him to be anything he isn't, and I can appreciate stuff he does fine enough. What you wrote below what I wrote is, and I suggest you read it again carefully - the stuff YOU wrote - just you defending Martin and your own appreciation for him. From what, I can't tell, but is sure doesn't mean we're not looking at a king Athur plot.
 

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

If it DOESN'T turn out the kingsguard are alive, it's going to be bizzare.

TBH there will be nothing bizarre about the 3 KG who supposedly died at the ToJ in fact turning out to have died at the ToJ.  Nor would there be anything particularly bizarre if Howland Reed just confirmed they died doing their duty and no one talked about them at all after that. The bizarre thing would be if Ned went to the ToJ and got five of his best friends killed before realising there was a better way to handle things!  He remembers the ToJ vividly in the fever dream and I take his sad remark to the KG "No, Now it ends" to mean just that: a fight to the death which only he and Howland survived.

Ned Stark was a honor obsessed fool who ruined his house, got his retinue killed, got all his children messed up, started a civil war with an attempted coup... You would think it bizzare that this man would rush of on his own to rescue his sister, whom his best pal "Reasonable Robert Baratheon" thought was being raped? And you trust this man to be able, as a young kid pretty much, to determin when "It ends?"

But you are right that if Howland Reed went out of hiding to confirm that the ToJ went down the way one vague halucination put it, it wouldn't be bizzare. It would be banal. The bizzare thing would be that there are people out there who would want this to be what happens. WHY? What kind of reveal is that, when you reveal somethign that's been known to the audience from book one?

I'll call the man many things, a liar, a fraud, a procrastinator, a hack, a plagiarist, and still enjoy his work, dissect it, read it all front to back carefully, run a ASOIAF meme website, enojy the Game of thrones Boardgame, retype the whole ASOIAF by hand for fun and practice - but I would not accuse the man of being so terrible as to have written all this stuff just so the ToJ reveal turns out to be "yeah, it all went down just like Ned halucinated, those three guys are dead". That would be just unspeakably awfuly bad.

 

 

----


And as for the WHY?

Of course noone knows why. That's what makes it a mystery. That's what makes it THE mystery. That what makes me su sure they didn't die - because if it turns out to be true it's still not banal because we don't know what actually happened, what they did exactly, and why. So Martin can surprise us with an actual endgame that involves these people we've been hearing about enough  that they're familiar but that we don't really know much about.

If we had enough clues as to why they would do it we would all have figured the mystery out by now.

What were they doing there? No way to find out until they resurface or we get to hear it from Howland or whoever.

Dayne said: "Now it begins."
Ned said: "Now it ends."

Ned is dead, and it's still going on whatever it is. I don't know if there's a stranger or more suspicious sentence in all the books than what Dayne said there. I don't HAVE to be right about everything, but someone insisting I'm not - very, very strange attitude.

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On 7/1/2016 at 4:32 PM, lujo said:

If some people faked their deaths, it would be the three kingsguard. Only two lived to ride away could reffer to the seven that came, or to only two officially living.

You might have noticed noone even tried to make a move on Selmy when he made his resignation, because he could mess them all up alone and they were pretty certain of it. The most likely outcome of that battle would be that Dayne, Hightower and Whent kicked their ass, but spared Ned and Reed because of something Reed told them.

They faked their deaths and that's why we never heard anything from either the Daynes, the Hightowers or the Whents, or ever saw Howland Reed himself. The real reveal is not that R + L = J, that's no mistery and rather pointless, it's that none of the Kingsguard died, and very importantly wth were they up to.

If Ned was working with the KD in relation to Jon. I doubt he would of let Jon join the NW.

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2 hours ago, Muggle said:

If Ned was working with the KD in relation to Jon. I doubt he would of let Jon join the NW.

I'm actually not all that sold on R + L = J.  Always seemed another banal, too obvious thing. Could be, doesn't have to be. That's part of why I think the KD are (or were) alive - it doesn't say anything about what R + L actually amounts to. It's very open ended, and if I was Martin this would be the ideal position to be in to blow people's minds with the two (or so) final books.

Ned and Howland don't have to be actively working with the KG. For example: the KG left them alive and Ned and Howland just  helped them disappear. Rheagar got himself killed, and Lyanna just about died in childbirth, the kid was there and the KG were stuck with the kid when his uncle NED  arrived, and being a dope he attacked, they beat him into submission and told him to take care of the damned kid. Or it was the kingsguard being unreasonable and Howland talked them out of killing him and Ned with some stuff from the Isle of Faces. What really happened - we'll find out when we find out.

Either way, why does that question never get brought up otherwise? Why would Ned allow Jon to go to the wall anyway?

Jon being at the wall looks way more like a decision on the writers part. Possibly one he's regretted, too.

If Jon's supposed to be important, then "everything else" is quite unimportant because he's quite cut off from everything else. This kinda kills suspense, always has for me, because whatever's happening that's not on the wall is "probably irelevant" and things will get real only when Martin finally decides to involve Jon. As depressing as this is it has turned out to be quite true.

But if Jon was supposed to be important, then Ned would have known about this all along and would not have sent him to the wall. Unless Matin knew he'd sneak him off the wall by allowing him to bypass his oath via getting killed and resurrected, but NED could not have known about this. Which then might mean that Ned's decision to allow Jon to the wall is completely nonsensical and only happened because George Martin said so. 

We don't know what happened at the ToJ. Having the KG alive opens up a bunch of posiblities and give Martin an endgame that's not stereotypical fantasy shlock. Not having them alive means that the series opens with Ned Stark sending Rheagar's and Lyanna's son to the wall and what's going to be revealed is that there's a guy on the wall who's a Targaryen bastard. Which changes exactly nothing and can go just about nowhere.

If I was writing this stuff and that was my endgame I'd be mistified as to how come I have a huge fandom.

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On 7/4/2016 at 3:29 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

In a way that's exactly opposite from what Ned actually does.

Why not accept Cersei's offer and bend the knee to King Joffrey? Why not accept Renly's offer, strike before Bob even drew his last breath, and rule himself with Joffrey as a figurehead? Why risk death in support Stannis' claim? Because that was the law. Realpolitik mattered little.

The reasons you try to invent to justify Ned allegedly stealing his nephew's rightful title, his home, his lands, are feeble. Your theory is very simply wrong.

Obviously we completely differ in our interpretation of motivation, characterization, storytelling technique, and the centrality of irony to ASOIAF. He's preserving his brother's and family's honor at the expense of his own. There's nothing honorable for his family (members) in what you suggest re: Cersei/Renly. LOL @ "feeble". I should try being ferocious, I guess. ;p

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On 7/4/2016 at 3:43 PM, Adam Yozza said:

They were together at Kings Landing? That's your reasoning? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but really? Brandon stormed into the Red Keep the second he got to Kings Landing and demanded justice. He was immediately thrown into a cell. The only way they could have been together was if Ashara went and visited him in the dungeons, and I doubt Aerys would have let her live after he found out she was 'conspiring' with Brandon. So as Brandon's son, Jon could not have been born post 282.

The "reasoning" stems from a thousand strands. Being able to place them together merely provides opportunity -- which they already have at Harrenhal.

We know precious little of the details of Brandon's and Rickard's last days (although enough to surmise he may have been an annointed knight in the Southron style, in contravention of Stark norms -- see melting gilded spurs), and I don't think it's an accident. We don't know whether Brandon was confined to the black cells or given more dignified accommodations in accord with his noble status. Regardless, Ashara was the Queen's woman and the Queen and Aerys did not get along. I imagine Varys would have been sympathetic, as weIl. I think it most likely that Brandon and Rickard are killed in April or May, so if King's Landing is the site of impregnation, early 283 is possible.

On 7/4/2016 at 3:43 PM, Adam Yozza said:

If he was born in 282 however, then why didn't people notice that Jon was older than Ned claimed? I was under the impression that a year old child looks noticeably older than a few months/weeks old child. Catelyn, at least, would have noticed, having a child of supposedly the same age.

They do, absolutely. IMO that's part of the reason (from both an in-world POV and from GRRM's POV) Ned hung out in Starfall, took his sweet ass time getting home, and had Catelyn wait in Riverrun until he sent for her from Winterfell. Close the gap.

 

 

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On 7/5/2016 at 11:33 AM, Rippounet said:

The quote is about maturity, it doesn't mean much (Luwyn was most likely talking about psychological maturity).

Cat wouldn't have been fooled (there's a quote saying that she kept running into Jon in Winterfell), and she strongly believes Ned cheated on her after her wedding.

But most importantly, if Jon was Brandon's legitimate son, his age wouldn't matter anyway.

I've toyed with this idea before, but it doesn't work.

Bastards are far more problematic than "it wouldn't matter anyway". Bastards born on common women might be easily dealth with, but bastards born of the union between the eldest son of a Lord Paramount and the eldest daughter of a high Lord of an ancient house? IMO that's a very different animal.

But yeah, that's why I think it's most likely he's legitimate.

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On 7/5/2016 at 0:35 PM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And of course there is GRRM telling his readers that there is only nine months difference between Dany and Jon in age.

Well aware of this quotation: It's what caused me to stop thinking Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal and start thinking she got pregnant in King's Landing, 9 months before Rhaegar departs the ToJ for King's Landing and then the Trident, fresh off knocking up Lyanna with Daenerys.

On 7/5/2016 at 0:35 PM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Now some child was recently born at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrives, thus the blood and possibly the Kingsguard's refusal to leave, yet Brandon had been dead for more than a year. How exactly did the dead Brandon impregnate Dayne?

Yup, that's Dany, as stated.

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On 7/3/2016 at 7:40 PM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And what purpose does this serve, like at all? Qhorin is dead, this revelation is never going to come to light.

Forgot to mention one huge thing, in terms of literary impact.

  • Who is Jaime?

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, formerly candidate for baddest man on the planet.

  • What does he have to do?

Learn to fight with his left hand 'cause the right one's gone.

  • Who is Qhorin Halfhand, according to me?

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, formerly candidate for baddest man on the planet.

  • What does he have to do?

Learn to fight with his left hand 'cause the right one's (half) gone.

 

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On 7/4/2016 at 8:23 PM, Bea Noleto said:

The everybody is alive point of view comes from the fact that Ned didn't bring back the bodies of the people who supposedly died there (Dustin, at least). Which is very disrespectful, very unlike Ned. And the fact that the Dayne's bare no ill will towards him, to the point of nicknaming their lord after him.  One thing is when you realize shit happens, people die, and there is no one to blame, but to be this friendly?

Iknowthoughrite? For me, the argument "well, they respect him for bringing the sword back" is as tortured a product of not believing GRRM's using verbiage to bullshit us as the rationalizations for Ned not (at least eventually) telling Cat about Jon if Jon is RLJ.

On 7/4/2016 at 8:23 PM, Bea Noleto said:

And winds of winter is taking too long, of course.

Dude's got BUCKETS of tasty fried chicken to eat. BUCKETS. Seriously, though, I have a good feeling about the next few months!

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On 7/5/2016 at 1:25 PM, the trees have eyes said:

4. Like Davos you mean?  The point I am trying to get across to you is that Qhorin's identity and the circumstances of how he lost three fingers to a wildling axe are just as well known as how Davos the smuggler became Davos Shorthand.  Mysteries are interesting and fun but there isn't one around Qhorin who is no more Hightower than Mance is Rhaegar or the High Sparrow is Howland Reed.

Rhaegar's Jenny and Duncan. The High Sparrow is Balon Greyjoy, actually. Well, he's Balon's flesh-and-blood body, anyway, just with a Faceless Man riding around inside like Bran-in-Hodor. (Better to start with THIS BIT about devout Ironborn and their foot fetish, then read the prior link.) Howland Reed is Ser Shadrich. Dig it. :D

Yeah, it's fine if you disagree. Took me re-reading with this kinda stuff on the absolute forefront of my brain to start seeing how may little things folded neatly in, including especially the details of Ned's behavior/mindset/thoughts in AGOT.

And yeah, I'll be disappointed if most of the cigars are only cigars, but that's my lot and I'm OK with it.

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On 7/5/2016 at 9:09 PM, lujo said:

One happens to be Barristan Selmy, (who fakes his identiry quite sucessfuly after... leaving of his own accord), and is such a mean ass-kicker while WAY past his prime that, according to people looking at the prospect of facng him, he could take 5 people on alone and win. So Gerold, Arthur and Oswell actually losing to the Starks party would be a miracle.

NOT IF HOWLAND REED DID THIS AND THE OTHERS DID THAT AND -- no i'm kidding. tell me about it.

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Hightower is called The White Bull due to his very easily identified helmet. Whent also has a very easy to identify helmet. The HOUND has such an easily identified helment that two other people take it and other folks think the Hound is around and doing things, while he's... faking his own death. The Hound fakes his own death in a way either Hightower or Whent could have while being more conspicuous than Dayne is due to being the only famous guy with half his face burned off. ! ! ! Read the last sentence again just because ! ! ! Whent and Hightower could have ditched their helmets and walked away. Dayne would have a hard time blending in, but he ditched the sword and there's several places he could be. Hell, ARYA has trouble actually becoming "noone" because she won't ditch her signature weapon, and Dayne did (as far as the general public is concerned)

Did you by chance read my essay "He Did Not Know You: Recognition (and the Evident Difficulty Thereof) in ASOIAF"?

After a ton of pedestrian failures to recognize, I dive into the piece de resistance: THE HOUND and SER ARTYS ARRYN, THE FALCON KNIGHT.

WHY does GRRM tell us these stories? He gives us the Hound, right there: without the Helmet, he can dig graves in peace. But Artys Arryn...  Artys Arryn is literally a story that revolves around the fact that before photography and intelligence agencies and ID cards and reproducible images, people identified people by their BANNERS, their LIVERY and their STYLIZED ARMOR. You leave those behind, you walk away.

That piece centers on mis/unrecognition, so Bloodraven was a bit off topic, but actually his "reveal" to Dunk is a great example: here's one of the 3 or 4 most famous people on Westeros and when he's finally un-glamored, it's not like Dunk is all "oh, hey, it's Bloodraven, anybody'd know him!"

 

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If it DOESN'T turn out the kingsguard are alive, it's going to be bizzare.

As to WHY they faked their death - who cares? Whatever it is it'll make for a cool-ass reveal.

I agree in spades. IMO people mistake GRRM's story-telling for world-building all the time. These characters have been set. the fuck. up. to be alive.

I think it was decided that was the best way to keep Dany safe, for reasons which are probably down in the details. If they're dead, it means they lost, which means (since Robert trusts Ned) there's no need to worry about an heir at the ToJ. If they survive, Robert wonders why, and that opens the door to questions.

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On 7/6/2016 at 0:45 AM, lujo said:

Also, M_Tootles - I'm reading your reddit stuff. You're cool and I want to be your firend :)

aw shucks, fanx. are you on there? the versions on my blog are in a few places slightly updated versus those, I think. Most typos and stuff, but prolly easier to read there than reddit anyway.

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22 hours ago, lujo said:

But you are right that if Howland Reed went out of hiding to confirm that the ToJ went down the way one vague halucination put it, it wouldn't be bizzare. It would be banal. The bizzare thing would be that there are people out there who would want this to be what happens. WHY? What kind of reveal is that, when you reveal somethign that's been known to the audience from book one?

The first semi-successful thing I ever posted on reddit (which contains some assertions I don't agree with anymore, because I had temporarily swung back toward RLJ and not looked into some other stuff as exhaustively as I subsequently have) basically HAMMERED this point over and over.

If X is just X, IT'S BANAL.

If things are "as they seem", WHAT THE FUCK IS THE POINT OF THESE BOOKS? I know most people like dumb stuff, but I am stupefied at how many folks recoil at any non-prima-facie interpretations of the texts. Do they seriously just want to read a straightforward description of some stuff that "happens" in a made-up world and be fans of this or that character/house/whatever? This is why Tolkein doesn't do much for me. This is why most fantasy crap I read 25 years ago I now view as mostly vacuous.

 

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I'll call the man many things, a liar, a fraud, a procrastinator, a hack, a plagiarist, and still enjoy his work, dissect it, read it all front to back carefully, run a ASOIAF meme website, enojy the Game of thrones Boardgame, retype the whole ASOIAF by hand for fun and practice - but I would not accuse the man of being so terrible as to have written all this stuff just so the ToJ reveal turns out to be "yeah, it all went down just like Ned halucinated, those three guys are dead". That would be just unspeakably awfuly bad.

Regarding the lying: if I'm not mistaken (and I may be -- I don't watch the show so I don't pay attention to show "news") he said "Jon really is dead", right? Something like that?

For me, that's exactly what he's doing with tons and tons of verbiage in ASOIAF. Abusing people expectations while not technically lying. Knowing how something will be read by 99.9% of people while leaving room for his words to mean something else.

People assumed if he said "Jon is really dead," that would mean the character was done for good. But all he meant was "Jon is really dead RIGHT NOW, and will really remain so... until he gets resurrected, whereupon he won't be dead anymore... which he is right now."

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