King Hotah Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Hi all, First time ever starting a new thread and sorry if this has been posted before! I picked this up in my first read in a Jon chapter (can't remember the exact book). Jeor and Jon are having a conversation about kings and Jeor's raven keeps basically staring at Jon and squawking "king!" repeatedly. The detail GRRM went to in describing this scene really resonated with me and for me this was a huge early indicator that Jon was part of a royal lineage. I know it's just a bird... but still. this was pretty cool when I read it and indicated to me that maybe this raven wasn't just a raven but maybe a giant bird full of tinfoil. BR perhaps? Keen to hear what you all think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 I think Mormont's raven is part of the group of "fools" who say wise things that people around them do not understand or do not take seriously. Patchface, Butterbumps, Dolorous Edd, maybe Hodor. There is also a proverb that comes up over and over: Dark wings, dark words. This seems to be like the saying, "No news is good news." In other words, ravens are associated with bad news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 King in the North is King all the same. This is no where near the evidence for RLJ it's cracked up to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Yes, the common perception is that BR is sometimes in the Bird, and indeed that he influences the Choosing of LC whilst in it. I'm inclined to agree. it seems the most plausible scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregg22 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I think Bloodraven sometimes Wargs the bird. I also believe that bird is likely what remains of the Night's King, similar to the Rat Cook's story. His faded presence in the bird, similar to what Partner describes in his chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 1 hour ago, gregg22 said: I think Bloodraven sometimes Wargs the bird. I also believe that bird is likely what remains of the Night's King, similar to the Rat Cook's story. His faded presence in the bird, similar to what Partner describes in his chapter. Totally agree about blood raven. Very interesting about Night's King. Can you elaborate on that. I really like the idea. 9 hours ago, M_Tootles said: This is no where near the evidence for RLJ it's cracked up to be. While I will grand that some people might be able to shoehorn a decent argument against R+L=J I do not think there is a single person who seriously thinks there is no evidence for it. Even people who disagree would be hard pressed not to admit there is a shit ton of evidence and they would have to say that it is just to throw the reader off from the real scent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krackensbane Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I think bran is the three eyed crow not bloodraven, and here he has gone back in time and is trying to help jon discover his parentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leticia Stark Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 There are many hints about R+L=J in the books, but I don't think this is one of them. I think it's foreshadowing for him to be KiTN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Twinslayer Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 On 7/1/2016 at 10:23 PM, King Hotah said: Hi all, First time ever starting a new thread and sorry if this has been posted before! I picked this up in my first read in a Jon chapter (can't remember the exact book). Jeor and Jon are having a conversation about kings and Jeor's raven keeps basically staring at Jon and squawking "king!" repeatedly. The detail GRRM went to in describing this scene really resonated with me and for me this was a huge early indicator that Jon was part of a royal lineage. I know it's just a bird... but still. this was pretty cool when I read it and indicated to me that maybe this raven wasn't just a raven but maybe a giant bird full of tinfoil. BR perhaps? Keen to hear what you all think! Welcome! This is often mentioned as an R+L=J clue, but I don't think it is. Because the bird is not looking at Jon and saying "King." Mormont is looking at Jon while the bird struts from side to side on Mormont's shoulder (so it is looking at Mormont) mimicking what Mormont has just said. Here is an excerpt. "King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth. ... "The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow." The point here is that the raven is "it," but the eyes that are watching Jon are "his eyes" -- meaning Mormont's, not the raven's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 3 hours ago, YOVMO said: While I will grand that some people might be able to shoehorn a decent argument against R+L=J I do not think there is a single person who seriously thinks there is no evidence for it. Even people who disagree would be hard pressed not to admit there is a shit ton of evidence and they would have to say that it is just to throw the reader off from the real scent. No, you're misunderstanding. THIS specific thing -- the ravens saying "King" -- isn't nearly the RLJ-specific clue people make it out to be. Because "King in the North" is also a thing. Re: RLJ evidence in general (which, again, to be clear, I wasn't talking about), I've found there's lots of evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a kid. Lots of evidence that Jon isn't Ned's. Lots of evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid will be special. Lots of evidence that Jon is special. Etc. Etc. regarding every formulation EXCEPT the specific notion that JON is Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid. Almost everything seems to allude to this is applicable if RLD/BAJ, too, particularly once you realize whom at least one of Rhae and Daella Targaryen likely married 5-6 decades ago, and thus which ancient House likely has Targ blood (both from there and also via House Martell... which may itself have received a re-injection via the other Egg sister). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 7 minutes ago, M_Tootles said: o, you're misunderstanding. THIS specific thing -- the ravens saying "King" -- isn't nearly the RLJ-specific clue people make it out to be. Because "King in the North" is also a thing. that is true but that is one very small bit of info leading to R=L=J 7 minutes ago, M_Tootles said: egarding every formulation EXCEPT the specific notion that JON is Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid. A I get what you are saying. I believe R+L=J but, of course, until we know for sure we don't know. But to say that it is far fetched is too much. I will entertain notions that RLJ is not true, but it is too much to say it can't be true or it isn't likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 6 minutes ago, YOVMO said: that is true but that is one very small bit of info leading to R=L=J I get what you are saying. I believe R+L=J but, of course, until we know for sure we don't know. But to say that it is far fetched is too much. I will entertain notions that RLJ is not true, but it is too much to say it can't be true or it isn't likely. Yeah, I wasn't saying that. I think it's a very intentional red herring readers were absolutely supposed to pick up on in AGOT, but most people dropped the ball on "bed of blood" and thus found it revelatory the first time it was suggested to them that Lyanna died in childbirth. I mean, AGOT basically says (1) Jon's parentage is mysterious and (2) oh look, Lyanna had a kid and died in childbirth. That's a shiny, shiny, sexy, sexy object if there ever was one. EXCEPT that so many people blithely read past "bed of blood" and think "oh, she died violently". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, M_Tootles said: Yeah, I wasn't saying that. I think it's a very intentional red herring readers were absolutely supposed to pick up on in AGOT, but most people dropped the ball on "bed of blood" and thus found it revelatory the first time it was suggested to them that Lyanna died in childbirth. I mean, AGOT basically says (1) Jon's parentage is mysterious and (2) oh look, Lyanna had a kid and died in childbirth. That's a shiny, shiny, sexy, sexy object if there ever was one. EXCEPT that so many people blithely read past "bed of blood" and think "oh, she died violently". That is fair enough. But if it turns out that it is simple RLJ I just don't think anyone would be like totally shocked. I do agree that a lot of people just read through it for the obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 8 minutes ago, YOVMO said: I do agree that a lot of people just read through it for the obvious. To be sure, I don't think GRRM intended "violent death" to be "the obvious" and "childbirth death" to be opaque. I think at worst he wanted the phrase to be ambiguous and I think it's possible he believed most people would immediately read "childbirth death". That's a thin reed to hang your great Uber-Mystery on, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksAndSparrows Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 The biggest factor, that makes me NOT believe in R+L=J is how likely it seems. Anyway, I would say that the Raven shouting "King," definitely sounds like GRRM's brand of foreshadowing. But there are more paths to a crown than the Rhaegar Lyanna Theory. King could be King in the North or King Beyond the wall just as easy... *On a similar note, one of the most lingering pieces of (possible) foreshadowing that I always wonder about is from Jon's first meeting with Tyrion. Jon see's the little mans shadow and thinks it could be the shadow of a king...or something along those lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 9 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said: The biggest factor, that makes me NOT believe in R+L=J is how likely it seems. Anyway, I would say that the Raven shouting "King," definitely sounds like GRRM's brand of foreshadowing. But there are more paths to a crown than the Rhaegar Lyanna Theory. King could be King in the North or King Beyond the wall just as easy... *On a similar note, one of the most lingering pieces of (possible) foreshadowing that I always wonder about is from Jon's first meeting with Tyrion. Jon see's the little mans shadow and thinks it could be the shadow of a king...or something along those lines. That and Tyrion being Aerys's half-son (he's a chimera with Lewyn [or possibly Marwyn] Martell). But I think he ends up crowned, yeah. King in the North, as you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksAndSparrows Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 4 hours ago, M_Tootles said: That and Tyrion being Aerys's half-son (he's a chimera with Lewyn [or possibly Marwyn] Martell). But I think he ends up crowned, yeah. What do you mean by "half-son"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 4 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said: What do you mean by "half-son"? Well, the fact that Tyrion is related to the shadow of a king hints at Aerys being his father. But he's only half his son, IMO. Tyrion is a chimera, the fusion of two zygotes. Joanna is his mother. He has two fathers: Aerys and Prince Lewyn Martell (or maaaaybe Marwyn, who is Lewyn's older brother). Read about this in part 2 of my 3 part mega-tinfoil essay which begins by talking about Lewyn in part 1, HERE. A couple "quick hits": There's a reason the evidence for Tyrion Targ is so sexy. He is a Targ. Kind of... There's also a reason it doesn't quite seem complete, and why Tyrion Martell theories (not nearly so common, but @Firiel Hiren is the original champ) are alluring. He isn't "merely" a Targ, he's a Martell. Kind of... There's a reason why the Minotaur-Tyrion theories seem good too, and why there's so many references to Tyrion as a Gargoyle (something Firiel notes but doesn't run far enough with). In medieval architecture, gargoyles were subsets of... (wait for it)... "chimeras". But it's a huge, huge interconnected theory, so check out the "part 1" linky if you're interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksAndSparrows Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 1 hour ago, M_Tootles said: Well, the fact that Tyrion is related to the shadow of a king hints at Aerys being his father. But he's only half his son, IMO. Tyrion is a chimera, the fusion of two zygotes. Joanna is his mother. He has two fathers: Aerys and Prince Lewyn Martell (or maaaaybe Marwyn, who is Lewyn's older brother). Read about this in part 2 of my 3 part mega-tinfoil essay which begins by talking about Lewyn in part 1, HERE. A couple "quick hits": There's a reason the evidence for Tyrion Targ is so sexy. He is a Targ. Kind of... There's also a reason it doesn't quite seem complete, and why Tyrion Martell theories (not nearly so common, but @Firiel Hiren is the original champ) are alluring. He isn't "merely" a Targ, he's a Martell. Kind of... There's a reason why the Minotaur-Tyrion theories seem good too, and why there's so many references to Tyrion as a Gargoyle (something Firiel notes but doesn't run far enough with). In medieval architecture, gargoyles were subsets of... (wait for it)... "chimeras". But it's a huge, huge interconnected theory, so check out the "part 1" linky if you're interested. Ooooh..... I get it. You're trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 5 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said: Ooooh..... I get it. You're trolling. Not at all. Read the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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