Book ending vs show ending

[Mayura]

9 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

"Satisfying" is the little sister from "bad"...

To the original post:
Most likely they will make an hollywod-happy-end :-(
But I think they (D&J) will not sit the iron throne, there was the scene in Dany's vision/dream of her walking through the ruined throne-room while snow was falling...

 

I think you'd have to read the interview before making these kind of assumptions: http://www.ew.com/article/2014/03/19/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-ending 

Quote

 

You know George’s ending for the saga. A lot of fans have wondered whether it’s going to pay off in a satisfying way. Non-specifically, do you feel the saga’s ending is creatively satisfying? Is it an ending you’re excited to work towards?”

Their replies were immediate and emphatic.

Benioff: “Absolutely yes.”

Weiss: “100 percent.”

 

So not only does it look like the books and the show will have a similar ending (if not the same, unless GRRM changes the ending he sold to D&D), it also sounds like the show runners like the ending.

[LordImp]

The third WTF could be : A Bran warged Drogon flying into the heart of winter and causes a spectacular explosion . Or maybe it is a ice dragon  

[boojam]

Maybe it's worth repeating this.

David Benioff , Oxford Union, March 22 2015

" Luckily, we’ve been talking about this with George for a long time, ever since we saw this could happen, and we know where things are heading. We’ll eventually, basically, meet up at pretty much the same place where George is going. There might be a few deviations along the route, but we’re heading towards the same destination. I kind of wish that there were some things we didn’t have to spoil (for the books), but we’re kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place/…/ I think the thing that’s kind of fun for George is the idea that he can still have surprises for people even once they’ve watched the show through to the conclusion. There are certain things that are going to happen in the books that are different in the show, and I think people who love the show and want to know more about the characters, want to know more about the different characters who might not have made the cut for the show —will be able to turn to the books. "

Season 5 had some serious deviations, as far as we know from the books and especially the excerpts from Winds of Winter.. Season 6 had more. And 7 may have even more.

Still no matter how HBO's alternate universe Song of Ice and Fire both George and D&D seem headed for some honking big battle between 'The Others' and Planetos humankind. What comes after that battle I can't even figure from the 5 published novels.

 

[Lord Freypie]

I'd say it will be same ending (ie : same characters ends on the throne, same are killed) but without the nuances making the ending "bittersweet" as Martin said.

For example if Dany ends on the throne in the books after burning all Dorne in a war against Aegon, commiting other atrocities on her way and showing signs of madness, and resuming absolutist Targaryan rule, in the show she'll become an obviously good queen as a pure princess, or will only take the throne to establish democracy.

If Jon has to be revived several times in the books to defeat the others, losing his humanity in the process like Beric, he will be in the show but without such consequences.

Etc...

[aFeastForDragons]

3 hours ago, Rex999 said:

Martin himself has said that D&D are even more Bloodthirsty than even he is and based on the evidence I agree with him

These are the same guys who couldn't wait so shoot a scene that has stannis burning his daughter to death

These are the guys that gave robb a pregnant wife just so they could show her being brutally stabbed to death at the red wedding

They are also the guys who decided to have Sansa be raped by Ramsay

 

True

[Dragon_Rider]

Can the ending be really 'the same' when they get to it differently?  It's a blurry notion of 'sameness'.  Part of what makes a story's resolution is how it got there, so in a way it will never be 'the same', even if the characters end up in the same situation.

D&D and Martin have stated repeatedly that they are headed to the same conclusion, so there's no doubt that for the main characters they will end in the same situation (i.e., deaths, victories, titles/thrones). Given the path deviation, though, it may not feel the same.

[a black swan]

On 7/2/2016 at 10:35 PM, Thia Stark said:

I think more characters will survive in the books than in the show. The show's ending will probably be something like this: Jon and Dany rule as king and queen of the Seven Kingdoms, Tyrion is lord of Casterly Rock, Varys is their spymaster, Sansa the lady of Winterfell etc. whereas in the books every major and minor character will get their own ending. Other than that, I think the endings will be pretty similar, with a few changes to make it perhaps a bit more satisfying for fans of characters such as Arya. In the books, I see her dying and continuing to live in her direwolf as she is the wolf child, but I don't think the show would ever kill her off.

So grrm's 5 main characters... Bran & Arya are just forgotten about? Why would you think grrm would kill off Arya and not let her have some kind of life post-asoiaf? Especially considering how much time and book space he has given her character? You don't live on in a Wolf. The Wolf will take over as "Arya" dies.

[Thia Stark]

1 minute ago, DutchArya said:

So grrm's 5 main characters... Bran & Arya are just forgotten about? Why would you think grrm would kill off Arya and not let her have some kind of life post-asoiaf? Especially considering how much time and book space he has given her character? You don't live on in a Wolf. The Wolf will take over as "Arya" dies.

I see you're personally invested in Arya's character  I honestly forgot about Bran. I wasn't writing my definitive endgame, just what could happen more or less in the storylines that I could think of at that particular moment. But, on the subject of Bran, on the show he's clearly heading south of the Wall and there's a high chance that he will reunite with his family, while I don't ever see that happening in the books, so that further supports what I was saying about book/show changes.

As for Arya, that's what I meant, that she will become one with Nymeria. I think so because she has always, ever since the beginning, been the outsider, the loner, the underdog. She is also the most wolf-like of all the Stark children. I don't really see her fitting in anywhere is Westeros' society. She's not the marrying type (in addition to the fact that she's like... 12 in the books right now?), the people left on her list will all die pretty soon, what is she supposed to do? Get back to being a child after everything she has been through and get raised by Jon as a surrogat father? 

[a black swan]

21 minutes ago, Thia Stark said:

I see you're personally invested in Arya's character  I honestly forgot about Bran. I wasn't writing my definitive endgame, just what could happen more or less in the storylines that I could think of at that particular moment. But, on the subject of Bran, on the show he's clearly heading south of the Wall and there's a high chance that he will reunite with his family, while I don't ever see that happening in the books, so that further supports what I was saying about book/show changes.

As for Arya, that's what I meant, that she will become one with Nymeria. I think so because she has always, ever since the beginning, been the outsider, the loner, the underdog. She is also the most wolf-like of all the Stark children. I don't really see her fitting in anywhere is Westeros' society. She's not the marrying type (in addition to the fact that she's like... 12 in the books right now?), the people left on her list will all die pretty soon, what is she supposed to do? Get back to being a child after everything she has been through and get raised by Jon as a surrogat father? 

With Bran, he needs to tell Jon about his parentage. Going by your point, I don't get why d&d are making this a huge change when they could have Jon find out another way. It seems a huge change to kill off the 3eR, Hodor, Summer and all those Children of the Forest if Bran wasn't meant to leave the tree and venture South again. I'm pretty sure the manner and events that lead to Bran moving south are completely different in the books. But major plot points like that seem indicative of book spoilers rather than d&d fanfiction. Same with Arya returning from Braavos as Arya and not joining the FM like most book readers thought before s6. 

Arya is not a loner though. She is one of the most extroverted and social people in the books. She makes friends everywhere she goes. Even right now in the books, you have Arya, steep in FM brainwashing, still making friends and people really like her too. Arya loved to sit with her father and watch him be Lord of Winterfell dealing with his bannermen. Arya listened while Ned taught Robb how to Rule and she remembers Ned's words while on the run. She is the only Stark child to consider the North and the people within in it her Pack. Ned did call her the Daughter of the North. With Jon - he raised an army to save who he thinks is Arya from Ramsey Bolton. They are marching for Ned's little girl. Arya is the most connected to her Wolf - which means she is the most connected to her Stark nature that is linked deeply with the North. Arya has always wanted to be free and have adventures and use a sword...etc. So grrm had her running for her life, free but that came with being hunted and her using a sword would mean fighting to stay alive. She has been running ever since and all she wants now is to go home. Even in her Mercy chapter in Winds, Arya is wondering if she could still find Jon when she spots the NW men. 

How do we know she won't ever want to marry? Arya not only looks like her aunt Lyanna, but grrm continued the comparison into their personalities as well. Lyanna probably grew out of similar notions - she is pragmatic like Arya is. Will she remain unchanged, exactly the same 9 year old we met in Book 1? Doubt it. She is very different now.

Arya's story is the most wide open and a mystery. We know for certain she will not become a FM and will return to Westeros. What will grrm have her do after leaving the FM with her skills and life experiences? Whatever it is, having her in the North and playing a role in the War for Dawn are obvious endgames for Arya. If she survives, her abilities will help protect her House & the North from all enemies - internal and external. 

She is 12 right now, (with the mentality of a 40 year old according to grrm) but the Long Night and Winter will last decades. We're only getting a Dream of spring. Which means it might still be Winter by the time the last book rolls around. Arya will grow up more and who knows what that person will be like?

Dead and lost within her wolf ? Really? Is that it? She is a main character and is likely to have a better fate than that. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

2 hours ago, DutchArya said:

So grrm's 5 main characters... Bran & Arya are just forgotten about? Why would you think grrm would kill off Arya and not let her have some kind of life post-asoiaf? Especially considering how much time and book space he has given her character? You don't live on in a Wolf. The Wolf will take over as "Arya" dies.

Martin’s letter said:

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

So Tyrion, Dany, Arya, Bran, and Jon. 

 

But that was long ago and far away, and Sansa’s role, her centrality if you would, has grown since then.

[a black swan]

27 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Martin’s letter said:

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

So Tyrion, Dany, Arya, Bran, and Jon. 

 

But that was long ago and far away, and Sansa’s role, her centrality if you would, has grown since then.

 

And he already had an ending before that outline was released. He knew how those main five character arcs would end. It's just the journey to those ends that have changed, expanded and grown like the gardener he is as he writes. grrm said he is on track and keeping the original ending and d&d will try and stay true to it. 

Sansa's role has grown but that doesn't mean she will survive the series. The fact that d&d have no regard for her character might mean she doesn't make a huge impact in the books ending. What if she dies like her direwolf for someone's else crimes? LF is all up in her story and that doesn't usually bode well for said character. Or will she get to be the Lady of a castle, marry and be happy? Seems she is on a much darker path, very OOC for her book counterpart. I dunno really. If Bran lives South of the Wall, he should be Lord of Winterfell. How predictable would it be for Jon & Dany to be on the IT when all is said and done? grrm said it would be an unlikely person to end up on the throne. 

Yet people like Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion and Bran and ticking along in their own story arcs hitting plot points that seem likely in the books. d&d have done a poor job of developing characters overall though. 

The fact that Bran is leaving that tree is just such a big deal. I love his character as well and I think grrm has big plans for him during the war and what happens after the dust settles. The epilogue he promised to write will obviously give more details on how these characters, and others, live out their days. What are your ideas?

[CrypticWeirwood]

3 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

I dunno really. If Bran lives South of the Wall, he should be Lord of Winterfell. How predictable would it be for Jon & Dany to be on the IT when all is said and done? grrm said it would be an unlikely person to end up on the throne. 

Did he actually say that?

I remember people saying so for a time but then this was disproven when the source of the rumor was discovered. Plus it would not make sense for Martin ever to give away such an important aspect of the ending. If he had told us it would be an unlikely person, then for example we would know all along that Dany would come to naught.

If you have a referenced quote of his to the contrary, I’m sure we’d all really like to know about it. Thanks.

[Mandzipop]

59 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

With Bran, he needs to tell Jon about his parentage. Going by your point, I don't get why d&d are making this a huge change when they could have Jon find out another way. It seems a huge change to kill off the 3eR, Hodor, Summer and all those Children of the Forest if Bran wasn't meant to leave the tree and venture South again. I'm pretty sure the manner and events that lead to Bran moving south are completely different in the books. But major plot points like that seem indicative of book spoilers rather than d&d fanfiction. Same with Arya returning from Braavos as Arya and not joining the FM like most book readers thought before s6. 

Arya is not a loner though. She is one of the most extroverted and social people in the books. She makes friends everywhere she goes. Even right now in the books, you have Arya, steep in FM brainwashing, still making friends and people really like her too. Arya loved to sit with her father and watch him be Lord of Winterfell dealing with his bannermen. Arya listened while Ned taught Robb how to Rule and she remembers Ned's words while on the run. She is the only Stark child to consider the North and the people within in it her Pack. Ned did call her the Daughter of the North. With Jon - he raised an army to save who he thinks is Arya from Ramsey Bolton. They are marching for Ned's little girl. Arya is the most connected to her Wolf - which means she is the most connected to her Stark nature that is linked deeply with the North. Arya has always wanted to be free and have adventures and use a sword...etc. So grrm had her running for her life, free but that came with being hunted and her using a sword would mean fighting to stay alive. She has been running ever since and all she wants now is to go home. Even in her Mercy chapter in Winds, Arya is wondering if she could still find Jon when she spots the NW men. 

How do we know she won't ever want to marry? Arya not only looks like her aunt Lyanna, but grrm continued the comparison into their personalities as well. Lyanna probably grew out of similar notions - she is pragmatic like Arya is. Will she remain unchanged, exactly the same 9 year old we met in Book 1? Doubt it. She is very different now.

Arya's story is the most wide open and a mystery. We know for certain she will not become a FM and will return to Westeros. What will grrm have her do after leaving the FM with her skills and life experiences? Whatever it is, having her in the North and playing a role in the War for Dawn are obvious endgames for Arya. If she survives, her abilities will help protect her House & the North from all enemies - internal and external. 

She is 12 right now, (with the mentality of a 40 year old according to grrm) but the Long Night and Winter will last decades. We're only getting a Dream of spring. Which means it might still be Winter by the time the last book rolls around. Arya will grow up more and who knows what that person will be like?

Dead and lost within her wolf ? Really? Is that it? She is a main character and is likely to have a better fate than that. 

Show wise, it appears to me that they hammered a point home in season 6. Arya is the only Stark left.

Robb and Rickon are dead. As are their direwolves.

Sansa lost her direwolf and her Stark identity. In the show she is continuously referred to as either a Lannister or a Bolton (Bolton will not be applicable for the books but the point will still stand as Robb has disinherited her).

Bran has lost Summer and has declared himself the Three Eyed Raven (not long after Summer died it was declared winter has come).

Jon is a Targaryan, Ghost will die probably and he will lose his Stark identity to possibly ride a dragon to defeat the Whitewalkers.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. That only leaves Arya. She was lost whilst Nymeria was lost. She will possibly find Nymeria and she must return to Winterfell to keep the magic working in Winterfell to protect people from the Whitewalkers.

I might be wrong, but that is how I see the show might be heading. It is only a guess right now.

[Christi84]

AN OMG ending or WTF moment would have to be Dany or Jon dying. Of anything that could happen in the books or on the show that would shock it would be one or both of them dying. They have been set up in those great arc-the return of the Targaryens with a Queen, a savage army and dragons; and a bastard (whos really a trueborn prince if R+L got hitched) who at least on the show is now a King, Theyve got some serious hero arc here that we're supposed to root for, especially with Dany. D&D have been gung ho about setting her up as most likely the biggest character in the story, and it would be such a shock for her to get on the Throne but the Winter or NK does her and at least Drogon in. With Jon its a matter of him being done in like Ned was, that he clings so hard to being like his father with all the honor and justice that he gets killed by not playing the game of thrones.

Only other shock would be Jamie killing Cersei but alot of people are starting to think of that happening anyways, so I dont know how much of a shock it would be except to people who arent super into the books

[CrypticWeirwood]

10 minutes ago, Mandzipop said:

Show wise, it appears to me that they hammered a point home in season 6. Arya is the only Stark left.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. That only leaves Arya. She was lost whilst Nymeria was lost. She will possibly find Nymeria and she must return to Winterfell to keep the magic working in Winterfell to protect people from the Whitewalkers.

And she has the wild wolf blood in her. It would be fitting if the Stark line continued through her.

But perhaps the reason that there had to always be a Stark in Winterfell was because of some ancient treaty with the Others, a treaty that was broken when Bran and Rickon finally left. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

3 minutes ago, Christi84 said:

AN OMG ending or WTF moment would have to be Dany or Jon dying.

Well, or Tyrion. But Jon already died once; it loses its shock value.

[a black swan]

On 04/07/2016 at 2:38 AM, Mandzipop said:

Show wise, it appears to me that they hammered a point home in season 6. Arya is the only Stark left.

Robb and Rickon are dead. As are their direwolves.

Sansa lost her direwolf and her Stark identity. In the show she is continuously referred to as either a Lannister or a Bolton (Bolton will not be applicable for the books but the point will still stand as Robb has disinherited her).

Bran has lost Summer and has declared himself the Three Eyed Raven (not long after Summer died it was declared winter has come).

Jon is a Targaryan, Ghost will die probably and he will lose his Stark identity to possibly ride a dragon to defeat the Whitewalkers.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. That only leaves Arya. She was lost whilst Nymeria was lost. She will possibly find Nymeria and she must return to Winterfell to keep the magic working in Winterfell to protect people from the Whitewalkers.

I might be wrong, but that is how I see the show might be heading. It is only a guess right now.

I very much agree. However, you're voicing a very unpopular opinion since Arya is meant to have nothing and to serve others or even more common - just die and achieve nothing really. Since Cersei and the Mountain will likely die by other people's hands. So you know. That's that. 

Seriously, I again, totally agree. Especially with Arya's connection to the North and Winterfell in particular. This Wolf dream was striking and so sad. Nymeria approaching Winterfell:

She dreamt of home; not Riverrun, but Winterfell. It was not a good dream, though. She was alone outside the castle, up to her knees in mud. She could see the grey walls ahead of her, but when she tried to reach the gates every step seemed harder than the one before, and the castle faded before her, until it looked more like smoke than granite. And there were wolves as well, gaunt grey shapes stalking through the trees all around her, their eyes shining. Whenever she looked at them, she remembered the taste of blood.

 

Nymeria is lost until she finds Arya again. 

With Winter finally here, the North needs a Stark of old, Arya's righteous ruthlessness and fierce protection of those she loves PLUS all the things she has learned and experienced while away - all things that will help House Stark survive Wars and the Winter. 

Do you notice how d&d have the NK off to the side just watching everything going on with his army of dead? He sends his "generals" to scope things out and take out Jon or clear the way before entering the tree and killing the 3eR. d&d also refer to him as Death in their last interview after the s6 finale. The Long Night brings darkness for years and years. A darkness that Arya is very comfortable in. The exact method d&d chose for Arya to kill the Waif and leave the the FM - was darkness. Not poisoning or normal sword fighting. While Jon, Dany & Co. fight the ground war, the key to ending it all is with the NK. Once he dies, all the creatures he has brought undead will perish. 

Arya's list might have just one name on it in the end. 

 

On 04/07/2016 at 2:32 AM, CrypticWeirwood said:

If you have a referenced quote of his to the contrary, I’m sure we’d all really like to know about it. Thanks.

I'll have to look for the reference. Might have been in a video interview or Q&A. 

[Mandzipop]

31 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

A very much agree. However, you're voicing a very unpopular opinion since Arya is meant to have nothing and to serve others or even more common - just die and achieve nothing really. Since Cersei and the Mountain will likely die by other people's hands. So you know. That's that. 

Seriously, I again, totally agree. Especially with Arya's connection to the North and Winterfell in particular. This Wolf dream was striking and so sad. Nymeria approaching Winterfell:

She dreamt of home; not Riverrun, but Winterfell. It was not a good dream, though. She was alone outside the castle, up to her knees in mud. She could see the grey walls ahead of her, but when she tried to reach the gates every step seemed harder than the one before, and the castle faded before her, until it looked more like smoke than granite. And there were wolves as well, gaunt grey shapes stalking through the trees all around her, their eyes shining. Whenever she looked at them, she remembered the taste of blood.

 

Nymeria is lost until she finds Arya again. 

With Winter finally here, the North needs a Stark of old, Arya's righteous ruthlessness and fierce protection of those she loves PLUS all the things she has learned and experienced while away - all things that will help House Stark survive Wars and the Winter. 

Do you notice how d&d have the NK off to the side just watching everything going on with his army of dead? He sends his "generals" to scope things out and take out Jon or clear the way before entering the tree and killing the 3eR. d&d also refer to him as Death in their last interview after the s6 finale. The Long Night brings darkness for years and years. A darkness that Arya is very comfortable in. The exact method d&d chose for Arya to kill the Waif and leave the the FM - was darkness. Not poisoning or normal sword fighting. While Jon, Dany & Co. fight the ground war, the key to ending it all is with the NK. Once he dies, all the creatures he has brought undead will perish. 

Arya's list might have just one name on it in the end. 

 

I'll have to look for the reference. Might have been in a video interview or Q&A. 

As I see it, during the war of the dawn, only Arya can hold the magic of Winterfell. I'm not sure if she needs Nymeria by her side. It may be that as long as Nymeria lives, that will be enough. I think that Jon is holding the magic whilst he is still embracing his Stark side and Ghost is still alive.
 

[Mandzipop]

There has been a structure to the story in the show.

Seasons 1-4 Characters separating and going on journeys of discovery.

Seasons 5-7 Characters coming together and discovering their skills. I'm expecting there to be at the most 3 groups (not including the Whitewalkers) by the end of season 7. It might be 2 groups. But I'm expecting the north and the Vale with Jon. Sansa, etc...Castle Black and Bran. The Riverlands with Arya, the Hound, Mel, Brienne and Pod and BwB. The south with whoever survives Queenbowl and Sam and Gilly (and maybe Ser Jorah).

Season 8 will focus on the battle of the dawn and the aftermath.

The books could end up with roughly the same 3 groups of people. George does like the number 3 so I think the show is aiming for something similar to the books in that sense.

I expect the wall to start to crack after Bran passes through. I don't think it will initially fall. That might not happen until season 8 episode 1 or 2. I also think Euron does have Dragonbinder in the show, otherwise it will be too easy for Dany. I can see Cersei and Euron forming and alliance, maybe marriage. Not sure about Jamie. He may kill Cersei and team up with Dany. I can't see Cersei lasting into season 8. Unless she is a captive of Dany. I'm not 100% convinced that Jamie will die.

The Dothraki do not stand a chance of survival in winter. I'm not entirely convinced the Unsullied will fare much better. I also think that by the time Dany reaches the north, she will only have 2 dragons left. I think Euron will be the downfall of one of them.

I expect Sam to join Dany and go north with her as he'll have found the key to helping destroy the Whitewalkers. I also expect the Tarly's to join Dany. Her army will be severely depleted by the time she gets north due to Queenbowl and the weather.

I think Jon will find out that he needs to sacrifice Ghost to ride the remaining spare dragon as he cannot ride it without accepting his Targaryan side and Ghost hinders that.

I wonder if the death of the Whitewalkers will destroy the dragons.

I think the battle of the dawn and the aftermath will be fairly similar.

There isn't a great deal left to happen in the show, it is just the minor details and which season they will end up in and who will survive. I do think that logistically the show is about to enter the most difficult phase of the story involving VFX and CGI and casting extras. It will also involve more night time shooting which I assume means that is will be more difficult. They are relying on filming in the winter for the longer nights. That comes at the price of dodgy weather.

The books will be significantly more complex, but the structure might be similar. Bring the characters together and then head towards the war of the dawn. It will be a similar concept, but how George does it will be totally different.

I'm only guessing that this is the route that the show will take. I'm basing it on how much time is left before it ends. They always take the simple condensed route. I expect that I'm wrong on 90% of my predictions, but I'm not expecting any really major twists.

[Balerion06]

Does it matter if they have the "same" ending?

I mean, if I changed everything after Goblet of Fire (context/character development/plot points), then ended it with Harry killing Voldemort but completely removed the dynamic of the Horcruxes/Deathly Hallows/Dumbledore's plans/Snape's double agent role, how is it in any way the same ending except superficially?