So is the consensus here that Jon Snow.. (ADOD spoilers)

[jontargaryan]

Is dead?

 

 

 

There's no way he can survive those many stabs. Heck ONE knife stab killed Robb. Jon was stabbed 7-8 times.

 

 

Its almost impossible for Jon Snow to survive. So why are posters talking about Jon here like he survives and is integral to the end game?

[Leticia Stark]

He'll be resurrected.

He will warg to Ghost and he'll be there until someone resurrects his body and then he'll go back to it.

[fenr1s]

We haven't seen any example of a character dying and then warging back and forth between hosts. Varamyr who is one of the greatest wargs didnt plan to transfer his mind back into a human host after taking over that wolf either. He expects to live the rest of his life in the wolfsbody.

Narratively it would be more powerful for Jon to experience death fully aswell.

Storing his mind safely in Ghosts body would seem like a copout.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

Yes, he's all but confirmed dead after the Ides of Marsh. There's a myriad of textual evidence & hints that he'll be resurrected & has more story to come. Do you not think the same considering your username or do you just mean that the generalisations of some/many in him "surviving" actually sounds like he doesn't die at all from the stabbings?

1 hour ago, Leticia Stark said:

He'll be resurrected. 

He will warg to Ghost and he'll be there until someone resurrects his body and then he'll go back to it.

Exactly. We have the Varamyr prologue confirming "Second Life" (which was already basically said with Orell in the eagle & Jon wondering if Bran was still alive in Summer & possibly Rickon in Shaggs if that wolf survived too, which he obviously did), further confirmation of such from Bloodraven, Bran & the CotF, an environment where his body can be preserved for days/weeks at the Wall (i.e. an ice cell or food storage within/under the Wall), a fellow skinchanger in Borroq (with the boar) who can perhaps let say Mel, Tormund &/or Val know that Jon is Second Life in Ghost, etc etc.

[Maxxine]

We've seen at least two resurrections and the Varamyr prologue to show us it's not a cop out. It's been set up. Even Robb arguably warged into Grey Wind when he died. Also Robb sustained more than one knife wound. He was also shot multiple times with arrows.

[Leticia Stark]

23 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Yes, he's all but confirmed dead after the Ides of Marsh. There's a myriad of textual evidence & hints that he'll be resurrected & has more story to come. Do you not think the same considering your username or do you just mean that the generalisations of some/many in him "surviving" actually sounds like he doesn't die at all from the stabbings?

Exactly. We have the Varamyr prologue confirming "Second Life" (which was already basically said with Orell in the eagle & Jon wondering if Bran was still alive in Summer & possibly Rickon in Shaggs if that wolf survived too, which he obviously did), further confirmation of such from Bloodraven, Bran & the CotF, an environment where his body can be preserved for days/weeks at the Wall (i.e. an ice cell or food storage within/under the Wall), a fellow skinchanger in Borroq (with the boar) who can perhaps let say Mel, Tormund &/or Val know that Jon is Second Life in Ghost, etc etc.

Yep and Melisandre has this vision:

 

Quote

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half- seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him.

 

[MinotaurWarrior]

I personally hope that Jon stays inside of Ghost, with something else taking over his corpse. That seems like a much more satisfying payoff for all the leadup about warg-ghosts and 'resurrection' changing you.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, jontargaryan said:

Is dead?

 

 

 

There's no way he can survive those many stabs. Heck ONE knife stab killed Robb. Jon was stabbed 7-8 times.

 

 

Its almost impossible for Jon Snow to survive. So why are posters talking about Jon here like he survives and is integral to the end game?

Are you talking about how it goes down in the show and thinking it is how it happens in the books, because it kinda sounds like it. The books are canon and the show is paid for fan fiction. They are not related at all and the mods don't want it to happen. Read here. I see your post count is low and I am assuming you are still kinda new and may have missed that point.

Jon gets stabbed 3 times, most likely four, but Jon is probably warging into Ghost at the moment and there is a real, real chance that his body never actually dies. I actually believe he never really dies but wargs into Ghost, maybe preserved in the ice cells we read so much about in this chapter, and is healed by Val and/or Morna who both happen to be at Castle Black and are wildling woods witches/healers. I think this may happen under the weirwood tree where Jon took his vows and this will allow Bran to see what is going on and for Bran to connect with Jon and guide him along... and maybe revealing to Jon who his parents are.

Anyway, Jon is stabbed 3-4 times, not 7-8. Wick's knife cuts his neck. Wick tries again and Jon thwarts it. Bowen Marsh then plunges a knife into Jon's stomach, which Jon pulls out. Then there is a third dagger in the back, and then the fourth that Jon says he cannot feel. 

From Dance: Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

[StarkofWinterfell]

Just so you know that for future reference, you don't need to put a spoiler tag for books that have already been released. It is generally assumed in this forum that everyone has read the books. For any TWOW spoilers, a tag is necessary since it's not released yet and there is also a subforum for that book.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I don't think there is a consensus on the topic, but certainly a majority opinion.  As I have always pointed out to those that think he survived, a dagger between the shoulder blades is a serious, serious wound.  If the dagger go's in horizontally it is fatal end of story because the spine is severed.  If it go's in vertically the bare minimum is a non functional arm and punctured lung and that is if it go's in on the side your heart is not.  If it go's in on the other side where your heart is, again fatal end of story.

[lancerman]

He's dead and will most likely be resurrected in some form or fashion. It's highly unlikely that he stays dead.

[The Fattest Leech]

34 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't think there is a consensus on the topic, but certainly a majority opinion.  As I have always pointed out to those that think he survived, a dagger between the shoulder blades is a serious, serious wound.  If the dagger go's in horizontally it is fatal end of story because the spine is severed.  If it go's in vertically the bare minimum is a non functional arm and punctured lung and that is if it go's in on the side your heart is not.  If it go's in on the other side where your heart is, again fatal end of story.

I agree with this. I think the majority do believe that Jon is dead physically, but mentally warged into Ghost. And I can understand the issues with the back stab wound, but I also know we are not dealing with 100% our world limitations and Jon also has people around him that can help him rather quickly.

I actually am surprised with myself that I can say and think that Jon is not dead-dead. A recent conversation with a friend earlier today reminded me of a quote from George:

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

Well, I guess. Yes. That’s how I took it. The way it was written, it sounded like he was mortally wounded – and, you know, it’s you!
Well. I’m not going to address whether he’s dead or not. But as to why – didn’t you think the text established why they would want to assassinate him?

http://www.ew.com/article/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Would severely but not dead or near dead and not warging into ghost .

[the snow dragon]

There is another possibility.At the end of adwd he was severely wounded ,not dead.Malisandare may heal the wounds just like  Victarion's hand.

[The Fattest Leech]

Ok, I was doing a little cruising and came across this information with picture, not for proof of anything one way or another, just for more personal information. I was shocked! This is beyond anything I had read before and the picture is freaky... but I know you little devils will all look anyway...

https://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/stab-wounds-don’t-always-kill/

[Dorian Martell]

33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, I was doing a little cruising and came across this information with picture, not for proof of anything one way or another, just for more personal information. I was shocked! This is beyond anything I had read before and the picture is freaky... but I know you little devils will all look anyway...

https://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/stab-wounds-don’t-always-kill/

I also am for the wounded and healed over dead resurrected 

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

@Maxxine Yeah there's a fair chance that Robb did pass on into Grey Wind, as there are several hints that he warged his direwolf like his brothers & Arya did theirs.

@Leticia Stark I'd forgotten that quote - good point!

@MinotaurWarrior I get what you mean, but I still think such will change Jon a fair amount. Almost certainly not LSH level (though he did have his own traumatic betrayal) because his corpse will be preserved in say an ice cell & not decaying for days like Cat's, but Beric lost more of himself each time he was resurrected until he was basically a shell of his former "Lord Dondarrion" self by the last. Plus, the longer he is in Ghost the more "wolf" he will become, so I think once he is resurrected there's enough at play for him to be comparable to say a 2-3 resurrections-Beric.

@The Fattest Leech Nice points. Especially interesting on Morna & Val - have you seen this theory? I really do hope it's "earth magic" (via Bran, Bloodraven &/or the CotF, if not Morna/Val) that resurrects/revives Jon - the "song" in between the opposites of ice & fire ... Holy shit, that link! Or she didn't feel it because Russia.

[Rondo]

5 hours ago, jontargaryan said:

Is dead?

 

 

 

There's no way he can survive those many stabs. Heck ONE knife stab killed Robb. Jon was stabbed 7-8 times.

 

 

Its almost impossible for Jon Snow to survive. So why are posters talking about Jon here like he survives and is integral to the end game?

It makes for a better story if Jon just stayed dead.  More enjoyable to me.  I never enjoyed his chapters.

[The Fattest Leech]

16 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

@Maxxine Yeah there's a fair chance that Robb did pass on into Grey Wind, as there are several hints that he warged his direwolf like his brothers & Arya did theirs.

@Leticia Stark I'd forgotten that quote - good point!

@MinotaurWarrior I get what you mean, but I still think such will change Jon a fair amount. Almost certainly not LSH level (though he did have his own traumatic betrayal) because his corpse will be preserved in say an ice cell & not decaying for days like Cat's, but Beric lost more of himself each time he was resurrected until he was basically a shell of his former "Lord Dondarrion" self by the last. Plus, the longer he is in Ghost the more "wolf" he will become, so I think once he is resurrected there's enough at play for him to be comparable to say a 2-3 resurrections-Beric.

@The Fattest Leech Nice points. Especially interesting on Morna & Val - have you seen this theory? I really do hope it's "earth magic" (via Bran, Bloodraven &/or the CotF, if not Morna/Val) that resurrects/revives Jon - the "song" in between the opposites of ice & fire ... Holy shit, that link! Or she didn't feel it because Russia.

@Lord Corlys Velaryon

Bemused and I talk about the importance of Val often. I have my theory that points to Bran being a wood dancer, and we know Arya is a water dancer, and we have tons of clues that connect Sansa to an air/wind dancer... Jon being an earth dancer (or whatever) would fit right in Yeah. That blog is crazy. 

[PirateVergo]

Jon has been alive ever since GRRM confirmed he'd learn more about his mother at some point, if he dies here it's impossible for him to learn more therefore he must be alive.