How rich is littlefinger?

[littlefinger'smoney]

First time poster. I always wondered how rich is Littlefinger? I know he has a bunch of brothels and stuff but do those generate enough money for Littlefinger to give loans to high lords and pay for Sansa's tournament. Did he steal money from the treasury or something? Also how does his wealth compare to Illyrio's or the Lannister's?

Thank you

'

[Sages]

Littlefinger is probably very rich but not very wealthy. Meaning he probably has plenty of coins. As the master coin, I  don't see how a master schemer like littlefinger could not be rich. He takes advantage of every opportunity I just don't think he has enough sustainable sources of income. More like he take advantage of the chaos in kingdom. If memory serves he was charging people to enter into the walls of kings landing during the war f the five kings for safety. And as you mentioned. The brothels are a good source of income for him. But in the grand scheme of themes I imagine he is most likely still a pretty small fish in a very big pond. That being said he is now a lord paramount of the riverlands. Had he held the position much earlier in the books, I imagine he would have amassed a great amount of wealth.

[JLE]

On paper, in the Iron Bank? Probably very rich indeed.

When it becomes clear that the Iron Bank is now bankrupt, having offered loans to *every* side in the war, and none of them have any money to repay their loans with? Not very rich at all if the Iron Bank goes down.

You know the principle... "Debtor owes creditor a thousand: Debtor has a problem. Debtor owes creditor a billion: Creditor has a problem."

[Nikhil Singh]

18 hours ago, JLE said:

On paper, in the Iron Bank? Probably very rich indeed.

When it becomes clear that the Iron Bank is now bankrupt, having offered loans to *every* side in the war, and none of them have any money to repay their loans with? Not very rich at all if the Iron Bank goes down.

You know the principle... "Debtor owes creditor a thousand: Debtor has a problem. Debtor owes creditor a billion: Creditor has a problem."

I doubt the Iron Banks bankrupt I mean they still had money to give The Nights Watch, such a high risk investment they still probably have a quite a bit of cash left, they had other clients then there westorsi clients,they still get revenue from, I mean you don't get a reputation as the richest bank without investing smartly (as in not putting all ur money into the war)

[RumHam]

Yeah I don't see the Iron Bank collapsing because of it's dealings in Westeros. 

Personally I doubt Littlefinger directly stole from the treasury. But we know he did use his position to expand his influence through appointments.  I'm sure he used his position and his influence to build his personal wealth. He probably gets a fair share of bribes and kickbacks, along with plenty of opportunities to make deals that we'd probably consider insider trading. I'd say he's probably quite comfortable, but not wealthy by Westerosi standards. He can't really flaunt any wealth he does have. a Master of Coin from a nothing house decked out in gold jewelry and fancy silks while the crown is millions of dragons in debt would surely raise an eyebrow or two. 

On 7/4/2016 at 0:42 PM, Sages said:

 If memory serves he was charging people to enter into the walls of kings landing during the war f the five kings for safety. 

He was, but that gold was (at least in theory) going to the crown and not Littlefinger himself. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

On Monday, 4 July 2016 at 11:40 PM, littlefinger'smoney said:

First time poster. I always wondered how rich is Littlefinger? I know he has a bunch of brothels and stuff but do those generate enough money for Littlefinger to give loans to high lords and pay for Sansa's tournament. Did he steal money from the treasury or something? Also how does his wealth compare to Illyrio's or the Lannister's?

What up. Let me answer your questions in reverse order, and in too much detail. (TL, DR: Don't know; absolutely; rich as Creosote, at least until he gets caught.)

We don't know exactly how rich anybody is, so we can't know how they compare. But I'm pretty sure he did steal money from the treasury. He definitely took out huge loans in the crown's name, which they can't pay back. When Tyrion looks through the crown's books, it's all a bit opaque. He at least manages to figure out that Littlefinger is investing the money all over the place:

Quote

He did not simply collect the gold and lock it in a treasure vault, no. He paid the king's debts in promises, and put the king's gold to work. He bought wagons, shops, ships, houses. He bought grain when it was plentiful and sold bread when it was scarce. He bought wool from the north and linen from the south and lace from Lys, stored it, moved it, dyed it, sold it. The golden dragons bred and multiplied, and Littlefinger lent them out and brought them home with hatchlings.

-- ACOK, Tyrion IV

Littlefinger is undoubtedly a financial wizard:

Quote

...the crown's revenues were ten times what they had been under [Littlefinger's] beleaguered predecessor . . . though the crown's debts had grown vast as well.

-- ACOK, Tyrion IV

We're told the reason for this is that Robert wasted a lot of money, but it's never quite specified on what, and Tyrion ends up in jail before he can devote too much time to the mystery. He does start to chip away at it, though, uncovering a little bit of what Littlefinger's up to. Firstly, as somebody else mentioned upthread, he sells official positions:

Quote

The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King's Scales were men he'd named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger. They were men of middling birth, by and large; merchants' sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners, but judging from their results, far more able than their highborn predecessors.

-- ACOK, Tyrion IV

I can't find the quote, but I'm sure I read somewhere that Littlefinger was taking a cut of these men's salaries in exchange for giving them the jobs. But what's more interesting to me is the idea that these men were more able than their predecessors, "judging by their results". If their results are so tremendous, then why does the crown need to borrow such enormous sums of money? It occurs to me that, as far as Tyrion is able to determine, their "results" are just numbers in a ledger. Littlefinger may well be inflating those numbers. There's more:

Quote

He went back to work after she left, trying to track some golden dragons through the labyrinth of Littlefinger's ledgers. Petyr Baelish had not believed in letting gold sit about and grow dusty, that was for certain, but the more Tyrion tried to make sense of his accounts the more his head hurt. It was all very well to talk of breeding dragons instead of locking them up in the treasury, but some of these ventures smelled worse than week-old fish. I wouldn't have been so quick to let Joffrey fling the Antler Men over the walls if I'd known how many of the bloody bastards had taken loans from the crown. He would have to send Bronn to find their heirs, but he feared that would prove as fruitful as trying to squeeze silver from a silverfish.

-- ASOS, Tyrion VI

It's important to note that Tyrion is starting to question some of Littlefinger's investments here. Unfortunately his investigation will be cut short soon after. And I may be simply too suspicious, but I find it convenient that a bunch of dead men have borrowed money from the crown. Did they really, I wonder? Or is this some of Littlefinger's embezzlement?

Last quote, I promise, from when Jaime goes to investigate Tyrion's disappearance from the Black Cells:

Quote

"Gaolers?" Longwaters sniffed. "Those were no gaolers. They were merely turnkeys. The crown pays wages for twenty turnkeys, my lord, a full score, but during my time we have never had more than twelve. We are supposed to have six undergaolers as well, two on each level, but there are only the three."
"You and two others?"
Longwaters sniffed again. "I am the chief undergaoler, my lord. I am above the undergaolers. I am charged with keeping the counts. If my lord would like to look over my books, he will see that all the figures are exact." Longwaters had consulted the great leather-bound book spread out before him. "At present, we have four prisoners on the first level and one on the second, in addition to your lordship's brother." The old man frowned. "Who is fled, to be sure. 'Tis true. I will strike him out." He took up a quill and began to sharpen it.
Six prisoners, Jaime thought sourly, while we pay wages for twenty turnkeys, six undergaolers, a chief undergaoler, a gaoler, and a King's Justice.

-- AFFC, Jaime I

Let me emphasise that last part:

Six prisoners... while we pay wages for twenty turnkeys, six undergaolers, a chief undergaoler, a gaoler, and a King's Justice.

They're paying wages for 29 men, but there's never been more than 18 men earning those wages, and there's only enough work for half that number, if that. So that brings up two questions:

1. Where's the money going that gets paid to those 11 missing men?

2. If Littlefinger's so good at his job, why is he wasting all this money?

And I have two answers:

1. It's going to Littlefinger

2. He's trying to beggar the realm.

Those 18 men are probably all paying kickbacks to Littlefinger, so he's making his money, and meanwhile, the crown is indebted, which gives him a weakness he can exploit later.

But think about this: if Littlefinger's paying wages to 11 phantom men in the jails alone, then how many other straw men are on the payroll? How many of those "harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors" are really there, earning the money? How many other dead men borrowed money from the crown? And how much of the crown's income is actually real?

To my mind, he's absolutely stealing from the treasury. There's stuff later - ceebs looking up any more quotes - where he talks about buying up the debts of various Vale lords and buying up lots of grain ahead of the winter. So we have a vague idea what he's using it for: he's funding his climb to power. (This series of videos offers some further speculation.) And it's working. The crown's debts are so great that they've reinstated the Faith Militant and told the Iron Bank to go fuck themselves, and we know how that's working out. Meanwhile Littlefinger's so rich that he's able to come to the rescue of every broke lord in Westeros, probably. And who knows what other shit he's got cooking?

But is he really that rich? I don't think so. Is there a lot of money he can put his hands on right now? Absolutely. But it's all stolen or borrowed. I wouldn't be surprised to find that he's in debt up to his eyeballs, but as long as he can keep those plates spinning, it'll all work out fine. At least, he's willing to chance it. It's in his nature: he's a gambler.

[John Suburbs]

How rich is Littlefinger? I'd wager that at least half of the 6 million dragons that the crown owns is sitting in LF's vault in the Iron Bank.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

How rich is Littlefinger? I'd wager that at least half of the 6 million dragons that the crown owns is sitting in LF's vault in the Iron Bank.

Figuratively speaking, yes - but realistically, no, I can't imagine the Iron Bank wouldn't put two and two together here, nor would they be happy with what Littlefinger's been doing.

[John Suburbs]

2 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Figuratively speaking, yes - but realistically, no, I can't imagine the Iron Bank wouldn't put two and two together here, nor would they be happy with what Littlefinger's been doing.

Why would they care? It's money deposited into an account, which they can then use to service other loans. Meanwhile, the IB has money on loan that needs to be paid back, or else... It's not like there is a Westerosi SEC or a global IMF.

[RumHam]

28 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I can't find the quote, but I'm sure I read somewhere that Littlefinger was taking a cut of these men's salaries in exchange for giving them the jobs.

Excellent analysis. I had never noticed the thing with the no-show jobs. Are you sure you're not thinking of Slynt taking a cut of the men's salaries in exchange for their jobs? It's possible Littlefinger did it too but I know for sure Slynt did.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

7 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Excellent analysis. I had never noticed the thing with the no-show jobs. Are you sure you're not thinking of Slynt taking a cut of the men's salaries in exchange for their jobs? It's possible Littlefinger did it too but I know for sure Slynt did.

No-show jobs! That's the word I was looking for. Yeah, I might be getting Baelish confused with Slynt. But I half-remember Stannis drawing some connection between the two.

11 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Why would they care? It's money deposited into an account, which they can then use to service other loans. Meanwhile, the IB has money on loan that needs to be paid back, or else... It's not like there is a Westerosi SEC or a global IMF.

Because it destabilises the Westerosi government, and thus the Westerosi economy, which means the rest of Westeros is hard-pressed to pay back their loans. It's all connected, like Illyrio said, and all that disruption adds up to way more than whatever's in Littlefinger's account.

Besides, if he's borrowing money from them on the crown's behalf, and it ends up in his account, then that's like he's stealing from the Iron Bank, and they can't have that.

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 7/4/2016 at 11:40 AM, littlefinger'smoney said:

Also how does his wealth compare to Illyrio's or the Lannister's?

Thank you

'

Baelish is very wealthy but his wealth is nowhere the equivalent of Illyrio's and Tywin's. 

[PCK]

Rich enough to afford a girl like Darien, as Gordon Gekko might say. 

[Winter's Breath]

Little finger is extremely wealthy. We know from Sanaa's Winds of Winter chapter that litter finger can feast people similarly to the purple wedding, which was a significant show of wealth the lannisters put on, at the same time as giving huge dowries and buying up debt.

the iron bank is no where near bankrupt. My guess is that they are one of the richest organizations in the world. The faceless men founded the city of bravos and needed something to do with their wealth they extracted as payments, and thus Im guessing they founded, and work closely with, the iron bank. Bravos has probably the greatest navy in the world; they can build a warship a day; this is also probably part of the same organization. It seems like the million or so dragons that the crown owes is not very significant to the iron bank. That powerful of an organization does not become powerful and rich by making crippling  investments. The iron bank lent to westeros knowing they could stomach the loss, or they were confident in their ability to extract repayment, or both. 

[Lord Varys]

Littlefinger dresses well and throws around coin as if he has them (the wagers he conducts in AGoT). Then there are his brothels, ships, business relations.

He certainly was embezzling the Crown with the fake offices and also establishing clients in the city by selling offices to influential merchants and other commoners.

However, the case of the dungeons is more complex. Varys also receives reports from the dungeons, so one actually wonders who the guy is that messes with the funds of the Crowns down there. Varys is financed by Illyrio and the official funds of the Crown for the Master of Whisperers, but he might also have set up a construct to milk the Baratheon regime some more to weaken it.

We always have to keep in mind that Littlefinger is still a newcomer to the game in KL. He wasn't Master of Coin for that many years, after all. Although it seems as if spend some time in KL in the treasury before Jon Arryn gave him the top job.

[MinotaurWarrior]

2 hours ago, 300 H&H Mag said:

Baelish is very wealthy but his wealth is nowhere the equivalent of Illyrio's and Tywin's. 

He very likely stole nearly all of Tywin's liquid assets while the Lord of the Westerlands thanked him for it, thinking he'd be able to collect on the debts one day.

Whether or not he has any of that money now is anyone's guess. All he's confirmed to possess are a ruined castle and ruined riverlands, with a tenuous claim on a land full of rebels and barbarians.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

23 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

He very likely stole nearly all of Tywin's liquid assets while the Lord of the Westerlands thanked him for it, thinking he'd be able to collect on the debts one day.

Whether or not he has any of that money now is anyone's guess. All he's confirmed to possess are a ruined castle and ruined riverlands, with a tenuous claim on a land full of rebels and barbarians.

Deets?

[MinotaurWarrior]

34 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Deets?

Just the ones everyone knows: Tywin gave Petyr three million dragons, all of which are gone. And, in a medieval fantasy setting without GAAP, his ledgers are all BS.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

This is the crown's debt to the Lannisters we're talking about, yes? Yes, I should think that is all gone

ETA: although if memory serves, Kevan doesn't seem to think it's impossible that the Lannisters can absorb that loss, just that he doesn't want to do it. So I guess there's still plenty of gold in Casterly Rock - after all, they've got lots of vassals with rich, fertile lands, and a trading port, and a working gold mine. I know you were talking about liquid assets, but Kevan doesn't seem worried, which would indicate there's no immediate cashflow problem.

Unless the Lannisters have taken out a loan as well.

[Kaibaman]

My guess is Littlefinger's wealth has come from a combination of embezzlement, high stakes business ventures and perhaps even loan sharking. Also we know from the sneak peak Alyanne chapter he is also seemingly monopolizing important resources to get the most dividends from them. Since winter is coming, he has started buying up huge amounts of grain from the Vale lords with the intention of selling them at a much higher rate. Who knows what other valuables he is flipping.