Problem with Dorne Dany alliance.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

Even if there is infighting between Dany's Tyrell-Martell-Greyjoy forces, Dany still has a core army solidly loyal to her enough to crush anyone that will challenge her (the Dothraki, the Unsullied, and her dragons).  The 3 Houses are frankly a boon.

[dancinglion]

5 hours ago, Zombies That Were Promised said:

Even if there is infighting between Dany's Tyrell-Martell-Greyjoy forces, Dany still has a core army solidly loyal to her enough to crush anyone that will challenge her (the Dothraki, the Unsullied, and her dragons).  The 3 Houses are frankly a boon.

dothraki?? danny burned their last leaders with fire and they were all like " LOOK A BURNING NAKED LADY".. I wouldn't count on their loyalty when shit hit the fan. only one loyal to danny are unsullied and dragons...

[Stannis is the man....nis]

I don't know how anyone thinks they aren't just going the predictable route of Dany steamrolling the Lannisters after this year or need I remind you "their is no way Smalljon is just a villain, that would be so stupid, a twist has to happen" or "there is no way they will just go 'the Vale saving everyone ala the Rohirrim', a twist has to happen". 

[Chib]

1 hour ago, dancinglion said:

dothraki?? danny burned their last leaders with fire and they were all like " LOOK A BURNING NAKED LADY".. I wouldn't count on their loyalty when shit hit the fan. only one loyal to danny are unsullied and dragons...

 

well as long as the dragons listen to Dany, her army will listen to her

[BalerionTheCat]

In D&D telling, there is absolutely no logic in what Elaria and the SS did in Dorne. No logic with what Cersei did at KL. No logic with what Sansa did in the North. The world is full of mad women, and no one seems to care. Even Daenrys bringing dothrakis to Westeros is madness.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

13 hours ago, dancinglion said:

dothraki?? danny burned their last leaders with fire and they were all like " LOOK A BURNING NAKED LADY".. I wouldn't count on their loyalty when shit hit the fan. only one loyal to danny are unsullied and dragons...

Well, the show's logic wasn't very good there... she just burnt all their Khals in their sacred temple in their sacred city.  That's not a show of strength that proves she should rule all the Dothraki, she just proved herself an evil witch in the eyes of Dothraki culture by coming out of the hut unburnt.  (The execution of the scene was laughable btw, the Khals were all going to burn anyway, why didn't anyone strangle her? Or once she pushed over one brazier, why didn't anyone stop her from pushing about ten more? #PlotArmor)

I suspect in the book the way she wins over the Dothraki makes much more sense, like she flies Drogon, he torches a Khal or two, and they all declare her as the Stallion Who will Mount the World.  The Dothraki respect mounts, a dragon rider would have all the horselords bending the knee.

But either way book or show, the Dothraki are loyal to her, just as much as the Wildlings are to Jon, if not more so.

[lakin1013]

On a pragmatic level, Dany's Dorne Alliance is a problem for the show because viewers don't care about Dorne, the Sand Snakes, Ellaria, or anything at all Dorne-ish.  The show made Dorne ridiculous and cartoonish.  Most viewers could not wait to be done with Dorne and critics were not kind to that particular storyline.  If Dany is going to have to interact with those characters, the show is going to have to make us care.....Or kill them off quickly and Dany simply takes the soldiers. 

[dancinglion]

9 hours ago, Zombies That Were Promised said:

Well, the show's logic wasn't very good there... she just burnt all their Khals in their sacred temple in their sacred city.  That's not a show of strength that proves she should rule all the Dothraki, she just proved herself an evil witch in the eyes of Dothraki culture by coming out of the hut unburnt.  (The execution of the scene was laughable btw, the Khals were all going to burn anyway, why didn't anyone strangle her? Or once she pushed over one brazier, why didn't anyone stop her from pushing about ten more? #PlotArmor)

I suspect in the book the way she wins over the Dothraki makes much more sense, like she flies Drogon, he torches a Khal or two, and they all declare her as the Stallion Who will Mount the World.  The Dothraki respect mounts, a dragon rider would have all the horselords bending the knee.

But either way book or show, the Dothraki are loyal to her, just as much as the Wildlings are to Jon, if not more so.

are you comparing dothraki loyalty with wildlings?? dothraki follow true strength above all. as someone pointed out as long as dragons are loyal to danny they will follow her. they are not loyal to danny.. the moment she looks weak they will abandon her.

[Addam Velaryon]

On 7/5/2016 at 6:06 AM, SeanF said:

I'm commenting exclusively about Show Dany who is a selfish, amoral, dynast.

 

yeah right....nothing screams "selfish" and "amoral" like someone freeing slaves from ancient bondage.

As far as her being a dynast, that is more ridiculous, since she said to Jorah in season 2 that the dragons are the only children she'll ever have, and even D&D have repeated this several times. So much for establishing a dynasty.

I find it interesting how people view show-Daenerys as someone horrible even though she's taking time from her busy schedule of trying to conquer Westros to free slaves. The show has not given the audience any glimpse of Daenerys showing vulnerability since season 2 or 3, & so Emilia Clarke's portrayal gives a wrong impression. 

Quote

 

 

[SeanF]

19 hours ago, Addam Velaryon said:

yeah right....nothing screams "selfish" and "amoral" like someone freeing slaves from ancient bondage.

As far as her being a dynast, that is more ridiculous, since she said to Jorah in season 2 that the dragons are the only children she'll ever have, and even D&D have repeated this several times. So much for establishing a dynasty.

I find it interesting how people view show-Daenerys as someone horrible even though she's taking time from her busy schedule of trying to conquer Westros to free slaves. The show has not given the audience any glimpse of Daenerys showing vulnerability since season 2 or 3, & so Emilia Clarke's portrayal gives a wrong impression. 

 

"Dynast" - a contender for power.  The term was used for the various people who fought for dominance in the final years of the Roman Republic.

The freeing of slaves is years past.  I don't deny that in the past, Daenerys (as portrayed in the Show) was a more sympathetic character.  Now, we get someone who feeds a man to her dragons, and jokes about it;  weds a man at swordpoint, (whose father was an innocent man that she crucified)  and then insults him;  twice has to be talked out of carrying out genocide against her opponents (once by Daario, once by Tyrion); burns a group of Khals alive and destroys their sacred temple;  gives a "motivational" speech to an army with a reputation for extreme brutality in which she urges them to slaughter her enemies and destroy their homes;  casts aside a man who was not just her lover, but also a very competent and loyal commander, and cuts him off from any mark of royal favour or friendship;  and now plans to bring fire and blood to Westeros, solely in order to win the Iron Throne for herself, and allies herself to a bunch of child-murderers in Dorne.

Selfish amoral dynast?  I'd say that's case closed.

 

 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

They are setting it up for Dany to have to choose between having an ally in Dorne or keeping Tyrion's loyalty (because Myrcella).  One person, and the clearly moral choice, versus a Fresh 30k+ army led by 4 power-hungry psychopaths who will declare war on her or poison her to death if she crosses them. 

The most likely outcome - if it comes up - is that Dany sentences Elaria to death for Myrcella's murder, & Dorne rebels under one or more of the Sandsnakes (Obara I would guess), and Dany loses at least half the army.  They swear to resist the Targaryens as long as their ancestors did and probably kill several people on the way "out".  Perhaps one of the other SS will see the writing on the wall and defect to Dany, so she retains some of the Dornish army.  

[House_Tony_Stark]

On 7/8/2016 at 7:10 PM, Zombies That Were Promised said:

Even if there is infighting between Dany's Tyrell-Martell-Greyjoy forces, Dany still has a core army solidly loyal to her enough to crush anyone that will challenge her (the Dothraki, the Unsullied, and her dragons).  The 3 Houses are frankly a boon.

No she doesn't, the Tyrell-Martell-Greyjoy forces make up the majority of her forces. The unsullied when she first got them numbered about 8,000 and since then they have had heavy losses against the Son of the Harpies. So they unsullied can't number more than 5000 being generous and unrealistic. The second son's are staying in Slavers Bay. And the Dothraki which are a large army only have around 55k soldiers. So while her core army is formidable keep in mind that House Tyrell alone has a 60k army.

[House_Tony_Stark]

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

They are setting it up for Dany to have to choose between having an ally in Dorne or keeping Tyrion's loyalty (because Myrcella).  One person, and the clearly moral choice, versus a Fresh 30k+ army led by 4 power-hungry psychopaths who will declare war on her or poison her to death if she crosses them. 

The most likely outcome - if it comes up - is that Dany sentences Elaria to death for Myrcella's murder, & Dorne rebels under one or more of the Sandsnakes (Obara I would guess), and Dany loses at least half the army.  They swear to resist the Targaryens as long as their ancestors did and probably kill several people on the way "out".  Perhaps one of the other SS will see the writing on the wall and defect to Dany, so she retains some of the Dornish army.  

I doubt the last part of that, they seem pretty dedicated to revenge regardless of whether they live or die. I think like you said Danny will try to bring her Essos politics of "I'm the boss do what I say" and declare the Sandsnakes to eliminated on behalf of Tyrion. The people of Dorne don't just hate Cersei and Jamie, they literally want the extinction of House Lannister.

Call it speculation but I personally don't think Tyrion exactly wants that to happen. He may dislike his sister but he does not hate his brother. And I'm sure he does not hate every member of House Lannister. As we have seen the Sandsnakes even want the Lannister children dead...Do you think they will all the sudden want to spare those such as Damion Lannisters children who is the current ruler of Casterly Rock?

[Zombies That Were Promised]

4 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

No she doesn't, the Tyrell-Martell-Greyjoy forces make up the majority of her forces. The unsullied when she first got them numbered about 8,000 and since then they have had heavy losses against the Son of the Harpies. So they unsullied can't number more than 5000 being generous and unrealistic. The second son's are staying in Slavers Bay. And the Dothraki which are a large army only have around 55k soldiers. So while her core army is formidable keep in mind that House Tyrell alone has a 60k army.

We're arguing logistics which the show often ignores, I'm sure we can use a scale of 1 dragon = 100,000 soldiers.

[Samson]

The absolute worst part about Dorne was that they killed the best things going for it -- 

 

Oberyn Martell was one of the best characters on the show, albeit so briefly on-screen (and understandably so, he croaks , what are you gonna do about it?)  But I firmly believe Alexander Siddig was SUPERB -- he was PERFECT as Prince Doran and he deserved the *REAL* role of Prince Doran -- not that stupid shtuff they did as "Dorne".

 

D&D should slap themselves in the forehead with a palm full of Vaseline saying 'WE F'D UP!!!' 7 times a day for 7 days.  As their Facepalm of Atonement.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

5 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

I doubt the last part of that, they seem pretty dedicated to revenge regardless of whether they live or die. I think like you said Danny will try to bring her Essos politics of "I'm the boss do what I say" and declare the Sandsnakes to eliminated on behalf of Tyrion. The people of Dorne don't just hate Cersei and Jamie, they literally want the extinction of House Lannister.

Call it speculation but I personally don't think Tyrion exactly wants that to happen. He may dislike his sister but he does not hate his brother. And I'm sure he does not hate every member of House Lannister. As we have seen the Sandsnakes even want the Lannister children dead...Do you think they will all the sudden want to spare those such as Damion Lannisters children who is the current ruler of Casterly Rock?

I agree with most of what you're saying.  But I think that desire power and contempt for Dorans inaction is the best explanation for the coup.  Killing Myrcella was not only for personal vengeance but mostly to start a war.  

The Dornish want to bring down Cersei and restore the Dornish to influence and glory.  And they realize after talking to Varys that Dany is the only route to that.  

So, in view of that I believe the Dornish would accept pretty much any alliance Dany proposes - especially since they likely already know about Tyrions involvement (and he's a Lannister).  However Tyrion (and Dany) are going to reconsider once they find out about Myrcella.

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

They are setting it up for Dany to have to choose between having an ally in Dorne or keeping Tyrion's loyalty (because Myrcella).  One person, and the clearly moral choice, versus a Fresh 30k+ army led by 4 power-hungry psychopaths who will declare war on her or poison her to death if she crosses them. 

The most likely outcome - if it comes up - is that Dany sentences Elaria to death for Myrcella's murder, & Dorne rebels under one or more of the Sandsnakes (Obara I would guess), and Dany loses at least half the army.  They swear to resist the Targaryens as long as their ancestors did and probably kill several people on the way "out".  Perhaps one of the other SS will see the writing on the wall and defect to Dany, so she retains some of the Dornish army.  

Myrcella means nothing to Dany.  But, I agree that having to choose between a competent Hand and Dorne will be hard. 

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Myrcella means nothing to Dany.  But, I agree that having to choose between a competent Hand and Dorne will be hard. 

I think @A spoon of knife and fork's explanation of how a Dorne and Dany conflict might come about is interesting, as in the books I've always considered a Dany & Dorne conflict to be highly likely. But since the character of Aegon is gone, D & D will have to engineer a plot to bring their conflict about.

And the fact is that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, as portrayed in the show, are a bunch of psychopathic nut jobs. There is going to be a question here whether Dany really wants to associate herself with such people.

Also, Ellaria's excuse for murdering Myrcella is no better than Tywin's excuse for ordering the murder of Targaryen children.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

I think @A spoon of knife and fork's explanation of how a Dorne and Dany conflict might come about is interesting, as in the books I've always considered a Dany & Dorne conflict to be highly likely. But since the character of Aegon is gone, D & D will have to engineer a plot to bring their conflict about.

And the fact is that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, as portrayed in the show, are a bunch of psychopathic nut jobs. There is going to be a question here whether Dany really wants to associate herself with such people.

Also, Ellaria's excuse for murdering Myrcella is no better than Tywin's excuse for ordering the murder of Targaryen children.

It would actually be rather a good plotline.  It would be a convincing way of showing Dany receiving a setback during her invasion. 

[House_Tony_Stark]

On 7/9/2016 at 2:50 AM, Chib said:

" dothraki?? danny burned their last leaders with fire and they were all like " LOOK A BURNING NAKED LADY".. I wouldn't count on their loyalty when shit hit the fan. only one loyal to danny are unsullied and dragons. "

well as long as the dragons listen to Dany, her army will listen to her

Don't be so sure about that I think many of you guys forget that dragons are not as cool as you think they are. When they first came to Westeros they numbered in the thousands and there were dragons so large that they could burn entire cities. The Dothraki followed her because they were temporarily amazed and they are accustomed to raids in Essos that has cities full of slaves, peasants, and refugee's.

We will see how loyal they are when arrows are raining down on them from castle walls, they fall victim to traps, and have to fight trained soldiers, and realize just how large the armies in Westeros are.

I think right now they are under the impression like many fans that they are just about to roll up and storm through unchallenged.