Problem with Dorne Dany alliance.

[Tolsimir]

Why would Dany be above allying with usurpers? And this goes for books and show. She is literally coming to Westeros with a horde of raping pillagers and a kinslaying dwarf besides her. I think in Twow Dany will become a much darker character and some fans of her are just unwilling to accept it.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Tolsimir said:

Why would Dany be above allying with usurpers? And this goes for books and show. She is literally coming to Westeros with a horde of raping pillagers and a kinslaying dwarf besides her. I think in Twow Dany will become a much darker character and some fans of her are just unwilling to accept it.

In the Show, Tyrion is her Hand, effectively becoming Prime Minister if Dany wins.  He was very fond of Myrcella, and would surely want Ellaria to be punished for her murder, if he became aware of it.  So, Dany would have to choose between her Hand, and Ellaria.  That difficulty aside, I don't think Dany would have any problem allying with Ellaria, if it were simply the case that she'd murdered Doran and Trystane and seized power.

I agree that in both books and Show, one's enemy's enemy is one's friend.  One dilemma that Dany will face in TWOW is how to reward the Tattered Prince for changing sides.  

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I don't think that Dany cares about Myrcella at all, Myrcella was Lannister after all, whom Dany despises. I guess D&D wanted to follow the books' line that Dorne was generally loyal to Targaryans at least to revenge Elia and Oberyn.

I see a potential conflict situation with the Iron Islands, because Dany wants them to give up their pirate lifestyle, which is the main way to survive there. Even if Yara/Asha and Theon kill their uncle (which would  be kinslyaing, by the way), their people won't accept her.

[El Guapo]

5 hours ago, Tolsimir said:

Why would Dany be above allying with usurpers? And this goes for books and show. She is literally coming to Westeros with a horde of raping pillagers and a kinslaying dwarf besides her. I think in Twow Dany will become a much darker character and some fans of her are just unwilling to accept it.

Unwilling to accept it?  I am looking forward to it.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

2 hours ago, AshesOfWesteros said:

I don't think that Dany cares about Myrcella at all, Myrcella was Lannister after all, whom Dany despises. I guess D&D wanted to follow the books' line that Dorne was generally loyal to Targaryans at least to revenge Elia and Oberyn.

There's no evidence books or show that despises Lannisters.  Dany's hand is a Lannister.  Who happens to be this young woman's uncle. Seriously she even accepted without comment that Jaime killed her father with good cause.  

There's a ton of evidence in books and show that Dany is incredibly not ok with child murder.  Mereen crucifixions, for example.  

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I see a potential conflict situation with the Iron Islands, because Dany wants them to give up their pirate lifestyle, which is the main way to survive there. Even if Yara/Asha and Theon kill their uncle (which would  be kinslyaing, by the way), their people won't accept her.

They can be traders and explore what's West of Westeros.  Honestly this would be a more sustainable way to make a living than reaving / raping.  I agree that there will be Iron Islands civil war, but I do think that the II will accept Yarasha and Daenerys, if grudgingly.  

Yarasha don't have to kill Euron if Dany does it. Plus Euron killed his own brother and no one seems to care.  It's not the books.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

9 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Dany's hand is a Lannister.  Who happens to be this young woman's uncle.

Tyrion is Dany's uncle? Why?? There is a theory that Tyrion could be a son Aerys, but it would make him her half-brother. But it's just a theory.

Dany's nephews, the children of Rhaegar were killed at the instigation of Tywin Lannister. Besides that they took Robert's side in the rebellion. I don't remember if Dany said it in the show, but in the books she dislikes Lannisters and Starks the same.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Just now, AshesOfWesteros said:

Tyrion is Dany's uncle? Why?? There is a theory that Tyrion could be a son Aerys, but it would make him her half-brother. But it's just a theory.

Dany's nephews, the children of Rhaegar were killed at the instigation of Tywin Lannister. Besides that they took Robert's side in the rebellion. I don't remember if Dany said it in the show, but in the books she dislikes Lannisters and Starks the same.

The person being discussed is Myrcella.  Tyrion is Myrcella's uncle.

[House_Tony_Stark]

8 hours ago, Tolsimir said:

Why would Dany be above allying with usurpers? And this goes for books and show. She is literally coming to Westeros with a horde of raping pillagers and a kinslaying dwarf besides her. I think in Twow Dany will become a much darker character and some fans of her are just unwilling to accept it.

This, it's foolish to think these people will just change their ways just because they have a mutual enemy for now. If Danny losses her dragons in this war I completely expect Dorne, the Tyrell's, and the Iron Islands to turn on her at the first opportunity.

The Iron Islands for example, their entire culture is based on pillaging and war. Once the Greyjoy kids get what they want I have a hard time seeing them be loyal to Danny if she can't force them to be. Some with the Dothraki they are enticed by the prospect of War right now, but how do you govern a kingdom with an army that is accustomed to living in plains and raiding cities? They won't just put on knight armor and live in Kings Landing when all is said and done....They will demand to go home and return to their old ways.

At some point Danny is going to have to play politics vs conqueror or there will just be another Robert Baratheon who will displace her at the first chance.

[House_Tony_Stark]

This is why I say.

1. Conquer the Crownlands

2. Conquer the Stormlands which should be very easy.

3. Conquer Casterly Rock.

4. Marry Jon and get the North peacefully. This would also bring the Riverlands in line given their ties to the north.

And then you have an empire that's too powerful for everyone else to resist. The Vale and High Garden would ally with her.

[dancinglion]

Dany's alliance is grotesque. Dothraki, dragons, eunuchs, imps, harridans, bastard sneks, de-ironed Ironborn, oh also a grayscale ridden exiled knight, a flamboyant sellsword leader and the Red God's high priestess in the back... It's like a therapy group that's about to conquer the world.. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

17 hours ago, dancinglion said:

Dany's alliance is grotesque. Dothraki, dragons, eunuchs, imps, harridans, bastard sneks, de-ironed Ironborn, oh also a grayscale ridden exiled knight, a flamboyant sellsword leader and the Red God's high priestess in the back... It's like a therapy group that's about to conquer the world.. 

"Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things"

Big theme of the series, IMO - the meek will inherit the earth.  

Dany's alliance is basically made up of a bunch of groups of underdogs & weirdos who are stronger than anyone else when you put them together.  

[OrcusOfUndeath]

Dorne does not make sense right now in any capacity. First of all what claim do the bastards have on Sunspear, especially since they killed Doran, who was rightful ruler and had connections and friends. The show wants me to believe that everyone will let this usurping just slide? Especially since it came from kinslaying. I don't think so. Dany should have some major problems with this. A bunch of bastards just usurped a major house of Westeros. They (in a cowardly way) killed the Lord of a house (in his own home) that has historically been close to house Targaryen.

And I'm rather inclined to believe that a lot of people would have supported Doran. A lot of people could have been pushing for war, but killing a Lord of the house is straight up cause for a civil war. No region is so united that they will just go along with this kind of thing, even if they all universally hated Doran, which is obviously not the case. Especially since show Doran has been talking about how much he's working on making Dorne a better place to live.

[MoreOrLess]

38 minutes ago, OrcusOfUndeath said:

Dorne does not make sense right now in any capacity. First of all what claim do the bastards have on Sunspear, especially since they killed Doran, who was rightful ruler and had connections and friends. The show wants me to believe that everyone will let this usurping just slide? Especially since it came from kinslaying. I don't think so. Dany should have some major problems with this. A bunch of bastards just usurped a major house of Westeros. They (in a cowardly way) killed the Lord of a house (in his own home) that has historically been close to house Targaryen.

And I'm rather inclined to believe that a lot of people would have supported Doran. A lot of people could have been pushing for war, but killing a Lord of the house is straight up cause for a civil war. No region is so united that they will just go along with this kind of thing, even if they all universally hated Doran, which is obviously not the case. Especially since show Doran has been talking about how much he's working on making Dorne a better place to live.

I big issue I spose is that we've not really seen what the region as a whole thinks about Doran being killed, only that at least some of the Dornish military have gone along with it. I think that's reasonably believable and indeed I don't think Dorne has been painted as a "chivalrous" culture, Oberyn for example has no problem with poisoning the Mountain, in their case "honour" seems to have more to do with the final outcome rather than the method.

I think in retrospect a better way to handle Dorne in season 5 would have been to have had the political situation(with many wanting war) brought up more in place of all the sand snake silliness then have had Doran killed at the climax after Jamie had left.

That said I do strongly suspect that Dany's alliance with Dorn will not be a smooth one, maybe she has a falling out with Ellaria and co or perhaps she has to fight bannerman who haven't gone along with her and instead ally with the crown. I suspect the latter will be an issue in season 7 and potentially even things up, especially in the Reach where I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Tarly's side with Cersei with the promise of lordhship of Highgarden.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

3 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said:

I big issue I spose is that we've not really seen what the region as a whole thinks about Doran being killed, only that at least some of the Dornish military have gone along with it. I think that's reasonably believable and indeed I don't think Dorne has been painted as a "chivalrous" culture, Oberyn for example has no problem with poisoning the Mountain, in their case "honour" seems to have more to do with the final outcome rather than the method.

I think in retrospect a better way to handle Dorne in season 5 would have been to have had the political situation(with many wanting war) brought up more in place of all the sand snake silliness then have had Doran killed at the climax after Jamie had left.

That said I do strongly suspect that Dany's alliance with Dorn will not be a smooth one, maybe she has a falling out with Ellaria and co or perhaps she has to fight bannerman who haven't gone along with her and instead ally with the crown. I suspect the latter will be an issue in season 7 and potentially even things up, especially in the Reach where I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Tarly's side with Cersei with the promise of lordhship of Highgarden.

Yeah, the whole Dorne storyline should have been fleshed out more and probably should have started earlier. Its like the writers bailed on the storyline half way through.

[MoreOrLess]

2 hours ago, OrcusOfUndeath said:

Yeah, the whole Dorne storyline should have been fleshed out more and probably should have started earlier. Its like the writers bailed on the storyline half way through.

I suspect what happened was that Dorne kind of fell inbetween for the show runners. You had the basic story with Jamie, Myrcella and Elleria that probably had enough meat to it to cover say 3 episodes but the alternative introducing a lot of politics into Dorne likely would have taken up a good deal more time than they gave it. Instead we ended up with that simpler story carrying on for rather too long, hence the questionable extra material with the Sand Snakes(although the extra Bronn stuff was decent I thought).

You potentially have a problem as well that season 5 featured a lot of slow burning plots that climaxed in the last three episodes where as Dorne as we saw it featured more action earlier and then was more sidelined in favour of the other climaxs at the end.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

7 hours ago, OrcusOfUndeath said:

Dorne does not make sense right now in any capacity. First of all what claim do the bastards have on Sunspear, especially since they killed Doran, who was rightful ruler and had connections and friends. The show wants me to believe that everyone will let this usurping just slide? Especially since it came from kinslaying. I don't think so. Dany should have some major problems with this. A bunch of bastards just usurped a major house of Westeros. They (in a cowardly way) killed the Lord of a house (in his own home) that has historically been close to house Targaryen.

There's a special feature in the season 5 DVD's about the founding of Dorne narrated by Ellaria (and told from her own very biased perspective like all of the history of Westeros vignettes are) that I think makes this a little more clear.  

Ellaria sees herself and the Sandsnakes as the figurative and literal heirs of Nymeria, who founded Dorne as it is today.  Yes, Nymeria married some Martell to unite Dorne, and took his name following their traditions, but he was never important - she was.  She who had no claim to Dorne other than what she brought by conquest and marriage came to rule it uncontested, with several husbands over her long life, none of them of any major significance.  And her daughter inherited from her when SHE died, not when her Martell husband died, or any of her many sons either.  

The Sandsnakes may be bastards, but Nymeria's blood runs through their veins.  And from Ellaria's perspective the Martell name never mattered - only Nymeria's lineage, both literally and in "spirit".  She believed that Doran and Trystane had demonstrated they were "undeserving" of that lineage.  The final straw was the marriage arrangement with Myrcella who she considered the inhuman spawn of her enemies (like Robert and his "dragonspawn").  

Now, all of that is of course Ellaria's biased perspective.  From MY perspective and the perspective of most objective viewers is that she is a cruel and blood thirsty usurper, who murdered the voice of reason in Dorne.  Who kills children to start wars and has no honor or any real strength.  But many in Dorne probably do agree with Ellaria's views - and are just as bloodthirsty as her.  

7 hours ago, OrcusOfUndeath said:

And I'm rather inclined to believe that a lot of people would have supported Doran. A lot of people could have been pushing for war, but killing a Lord of the house is straight up cause for a civil war. No region is so united that they will just go along with this kind of thing, even if they all universally hated Doran, which is obviously not the case. Especially since show Doran has been talking about how much he's working on making Dorne a better place to live.

I think there will be a civil war in Dorne.  But it will be triggered by Tyrion learning of Mycella's demise by Ellaria's hand, and (likely) Dany's execution of Ellaria.  Obviously the reason that Ellaria killed Trystane was to ensure there was no one with a better claim to Dorne than the Sandsnakes.  

One possibility is that we could finally have a conflict between the 'snakes, or the introduction of other Dornish nobles with some against the Targaryens and some choosing to stay with them.  Staying with Dany would allow them to pursue their goal of war against the Lannisters.  Breaking with Dany would allow them to declare independence but rob them of their ability to get vengeance for Oberyn and Elia's children.  Certainly whichever one of them is Ellaria's daughter will break the alliance with the Targaryens. 

[House_Tony_Stark]

On 7/14/2016 at 9:01 AM, El Guapo said:

Unwilling to accept it?  I am looking forward to it.

They can't accept it, because the Iron Islands are just that Islands....Now if she decides to grant them Harrenhal and the surrounding territories which would give them farm-able land that would be another story. But I'm not sure Little Finger would be quite happy about that or the people of the Riverlands in general.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

10 minutes ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

They can't accept it, because the Iron Islands are just that Islands....Now if she decides to grant them Harrenhal and the surrounding territories which would give them farm-able land that would be another story. But I'm not sure Little Finger would be quite happy about that or the people of the Riverlands in general.

People on the II don't have to farm much of the islands to make a sustainable living if they have other resources.  The Iron Islands can fish, mine and trade as they always have.  The main difference is they won't be literal parasites leeching off the rest of Westeros.  I never understood this anyway - how can the crown previously have been OK with one of its 7 kingdoms regularly stealing people and goods from the other 6?  Especially when slavery is illegal and punished as such elsewhere.  TBH the Iron Islands as a kingdom never made much sense after the unification of Westeros.

Anyway people are taking things a bit too literally if they think that people living on the II weren't already farming.  The motto of House Greyjoy is "we do not sow" but that's because they are nobles, and "Ironborn", and want to assert that they are above such activities - that they will take what they want, not produce it.  But certainly the noble houses of the II had serfs or slaves that worked the land and this would continue.  Such people are considered a lesser class than "true" Ironborn who make their living on the sea.  They can keep this part of their culture just without the wonton raping and theft.

[House_Tony_Stark]

14 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

There's a special feature in the season 5 DVD's about the founding of Dorne narrated by Ellaria (and told from her own very biased perspective like all of the history of Westeros vignettes are) that I think makes this a little more clear.  

Ellaria sees herself and the Sandsnakes as the figurative and literal heirs of Nymeria, who founded Dorne as it is today.  Yes, Nymeria married some Martell to unite Dorne, and took his name following their traditions, but he was never important - she was.  She who had no claim to Dorne other than what she brought by conquest and marriage came to rule it uncontested, with several husbands over her long life, none of them of any major significance.  And her daughter inherited from her when SHE died, not when her Martell husband died, or any of her many sons either.  

The Sandsnakes may be bastards, but Nymeria's blood runs through their veins.  And from Ellaria's perspective the Martell name never mattered - only Nymeria's lineage, both literally and in "spirit".  She believed that Doran and Trystane had demonstrated they were "undeserving" of that lineage.  The final straw was the marriage arrangement with Myrcella who she considered the inhuman spawn of her enemies (like Robert and his "dragonspawn").  

Now, all of that is of course Ellaria's biased perspective.  From MY perspective and the perspective of most objective viewers is that she is a cruel and blood thirsty usurper, who murdered the voice of reason in Dorne.  Who kills children to start wars and has no honor or any real strength.  But many in Dorne probably do agree with Ellaria's views - and are just as bloodthirsty as her.  

I think there will be a civil war in Dorne.  But it will be triggered by Tyrion learning of Mycella's demise by Ellaria's hand, and (likely) Dany's execution of Ellaria.  Obviously the reason that Ellaria killed Trystane was to ensure there was no one with a better claim to Dorne than the Sandsnakes.  

One possibility is that we could finally have a conflict between the 'snakes, or the introduction of other Dornish nobles with some against the Targaryens and some choosing to stay with them.  Staying with Dany would allow them to pursue their goal of war against the Lannisters.  Breaking with Dany would allow them to declare independence but rob them of their ability to get vengeance for Oberyn and Elia's children.  Certainly whichever one of them is Ellaria's daughter will break the alliance with the Targaryens. 

Not trying to make this a girls vs boys debate but this seems rather easy to get behind as a female. But being on the other side to me it just seems a little silly. It would be nice if we could get more details on what the people actually think because it seems to me as if the soldiers were just following who was winning the fight at that time.

Man or Woman they way she got to power was just treacherous though. It was despicable that she killed a little girl who had never done anything to her with poison as she was leaving and despicable that they killed the prince without even offering him a fair fight. I have no problem with the coup, I have a problem with how they did it. I can't imagine wanting to call someone who would resort to such despicable methods my ally.

It's a pity that there are no brave and strong women like Brienne in power on this show.

[El Guapo]

13 minutes ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

They can't accept it, because the Iron Islands are just that Islands....Now if she decides to grant them Harrenhal and the surrounding territories which would give them farm-able land that would be another story. But I'm not sure Little Finger would be quite happy about that or the people of the Riverlands in general.

Huh?  Not sure what this has to do with me. I was responding to the post that Dany fans are unwilling to accept that Dany will become a darker character in TWOW.