Problem with Dorne Dany alliance.

[House_Tony_Stark]

4 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

People on the II don't have to farm much of the islands to make a sustainable living if they have other resources.  The Iron Islands can fish, mine and trade as they always have.  The main difference is they won't be literal parasites leeching off the rest of Westeros.  I never understood this anyway - how can the crown previously have been OK with one of its 7 kingdoms regularly stealing people and goods from the other 6?  Especially when slavery is illegal and punished as such elsewhere.  TBH the Iron Islands as a kingdom never made much sense after the unification of Westeros.

Anyway people are taking things a bit too literally if they think that people living on the II weren't already farming.  The motto of House Greyjoy is "we do not sow" but that's because they are nobles, and "Ironborn", and want to assert that they are above such activities - that they will take what they want, not produce it.  But certainly the noble houses of the II had serfs or slaves that worked the land and this would continue.  Such people are considered a lesser class than "true" Ironborn who make their living on the sea.  They can keep this part of their culture just without the wonton raping and theft.

Technically, the II isn't one of the seven they are more of a collection of like minded people. And I don't recall many references about the Iron Islands having farm-able land. Fishing is only sustainable for periods of time or else you run the risk of over fishing the area. Trying to feed an entire kingdom like that is not a good idea. If you want them to be peaceful then they need to be able to support themselves without having to trade or steal.

If you look at real world history it was typically countries who did not have great farmland that began to raid. (Vikings)

[House_Tony_Stark]

9 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Huh?  Not sure what this has to do with me. I was responding to the post that Dany fans are unwilling to accept that Dany will become a darker character in TWOW.

Continuing the conversation not directly responding to you.

[Pelagie]

On 04/07/2016 at 6:35 PM, khal drogon said:

Dany's war is against people who are "usurpers". Her alliance with Ironborn makes sense because their uncle Euron is an usurper. Tyrells want revenge against the Lannisters so as her. But the Dornish alliance doesn't make sense. Ellaria usurps the ruling family by killing their family members. And which other ruling family was usurped after killing their family members - the Targaryens. Sure they both want revenge against the Lannisters and Dorne brings her an army. But they are and they should be more liability than asset and they shouldn't be her allies. They are kinslaying, usurping bastards who murdered their liege who wasn't even bad and they shouldn't be in power at all. They are in the level of Ramsay and Euron and Cersei in kinslaying and they killed a man who would be her natural ally. They also murdered a child. They are everything Dany is against except their hatred for the Lannisters. And Dany wants the world to be a better place and a better world is a world without these Sand Fakes. I hope she realises what they are and feed them to Drogon. Damn, I hate Ellaria and co.

 

 

 

Dothrakis use slavery...  And they are almost the center of her army !

So, principles : yes ! but with pragmatism...

 

 

[House_Tony_Stark]

1 minute ago, Pelagie said:

 

Dothrakis use slavery...  And they are almost the center of her army !

So, principles : yes ! but with pragmatism...

 

 

Danny is just one huge walking contradiction in my opinion.

She hires slaves as her soldiers. Informs them to eliminate their masters. Partners with the Dothraki who pretty much pillage cities for fun. Partners with the Iron Borne who do the same thing.

I don't think Danny has for one moment thought about what will happen after everyone else gets what they want. Why would the Dothraki support the defense against the White Walkers? Why would the Iron Borne who choose another ruler suddenly abolish their traditions to support Yara under Danny? They are pirates, I would wager that I would rather just sail away and do my own thing.

And if she fights this war that will greatly weaken both sides who will maintain her rule in Westeros? The only group that is truly loyal to her are the Unsullied and they could not even maintain the peace in one city.

[Pelagie]

On 05/07/2016 at 11:05 PM, Trump the Builder said:

do we know for a fact that she only has 200 ships?  it seems given that Yara and Theon brought her 100, but how many did she get from the masters and how many did the Dornish and the Tyrells give her?  According to the wiki, the Reach may have as many as 200 ships.  I can't find anywhere how many ships the Dornish may have or how many the Master's may have had as well.  An internet article estimated that there were 350 ships in the closing shot of season 6, so I'm assuming she must have even more than that.  Those additional ships should help to house those extra bodies!

 

Varys came back at Mereen (it is mission) with ships from Dorne and the Bief. Dany take the ships of all the cities of the bay (of Dragons), and you add the ships of the iron borns...

 

We are far above 350 ships

 

Face to that : Lannister and Westeros ships ? Remain me how they were before the Nera battle, and why they stay aside ?

The 1000 ships of Euron ?    Too many people laught at the idea of building 1000 ships in what ? 3 or 4 month ? With what tinder ? From what woods ?  And finaly, men to sail with these ships ? At least 20 men for a ship : 20000 men !!??  

 

Would the shorunners look like killers of the serious of the show ? Really ?

 

 

___________

 

Danny don't think in that sense. She leads, she is plentiful of confidence and it seams infectious ! Even Varys and Tyrion lost mind of consequence !

But, i think that is because they have too much in mind that Dany will never be a queen and/or rule. She is "a conqueror" as Dario said. She will not ends on Westeros but will goes on after learning the final lesson of power and fire during the war to come...

[Lord Lannister]

Come on, you have to respect a group of women so determined to get revenge on the Lannisters for killing some Martells that they kill all the remaining Martells to accomplish this. What possible concerns could Dany possibly have?

[Pelagie]

On 09/07/2016 at 9:41 PM, Zombies That Were Promised said:

Well, the show's logic wasn't very good there... she just burnt all their Khals in their sacred temple in their sacred city.  That's not a show of strength that proves she should rule all the Dothraki, she just proved herself an evil witch in the eyes of Dothraki culture by coming out of the hut unburnt.  (The execution of the scene was laughable btw, the Khals were all going to burn anyway, why didn't anyone strangle her? Or once she pushed over one brazier, why didn't anyone stop her from pushing about ten more? #PlotArmor)

I suspect in the book the way she wins over the Dothraki makes much more sense, like she flies Drogon, he torches a Khal or two, and they all declare her as the Stallion Who will Mount the World.  The Dothraki respect mounts, a dragon rider would have all the horselords bending the knee.

But either way book or show, the Dothraki are loyal to her, just as much as the Wildlings are to Jon, if not more so.

 

Khals pass their time to kill each other to take avantages. She is not a witch but a goddess at their eyes. She didnt use tricks but power, and Dragons !

It's a matter of degrees, but very large degrees 

 

And she learns, make mistakes, flare up sometimes, but listen reason at the end. This is a character who talk to young women who watch the show, not a perfect paladin, unable to make errors !

You can picture her in a simple way, but it is a caricature then, far below the complexity of reality imo. 

[MoreOrLess]

13 minutes ago, Pelagie said:

Khals pass their time to kill each other to take avantages. She is not a witch but a goddess at their eyes. She didnt use tricks but power, and Dragons !

Yes I get that impression as well, Dany isn't simply viewed as a Khal but with religious awe.

I actually felt this season of the show made the way Dany was treated by her small band of Dothraki post funeral pyre earlier on make a bit more sense as well. In both situations we obviously had the significance of rising from the traditional funeral pyre to the Dothraki which in this case also avoids spilling blood in the holy city. Now though we get more of a view on the Dosh Khaleen, they featured a little in season 1 but this time we see them more as a cast of priestesses who have a lot of religious significance but little in the way of actual power.

I think that casts Dany's takeover less as simply savages being awed by a supernatural event and more as a kind of social revolution, the religious class replacing the warrior class, akin to say the Japanese Emporer becoming the(at least nominally)poltical ruler of Japan again in the 19th century rather than just having a ceremonial/religious role under the Shoguns. Beyond titillation as well I think it shows the purpose for having Dany nude in both situations, highlighting the shift from a male warrior class to previously much more covered up female religious class..

[House_Tony_Stark]

19 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said:

Yes I get that impression as well, Dany isn't simply viewed as a Khal but with religious awe.

I actually felt this season of the show made the way Dany was treated by her small band of Dothraki post funeral pyre earlier on make a bit more sense as well. In both situations we obviously had the significance of rising from the traditional funeral pyre to the Dothraki which in this case also avoids spilling blood in the holy city. Now though we get more of a view on the Dosh Khaleen, they featured a little in season 1 but this time we see them more as a cast of priestesses who have a lot of religious significance but little in the way of actual power.

I think that casts Dany's takeover less as simply savages being awed by a supernatural event and more as a kind of social revolution, the religious class replacing the warrior class, akin to say the Japanese Emporer becoming the(at least nominally)poltical ruler of Japan again in the 19th century rather than just having a ceremonial/religious role under the Shoguns. Beyond titillation as well I think it shows the purpose for having Dany nude in both situations, highlighting the shift from a male warrior class to previously much more covered up female religious class..

But here is the problem with that, seeing a normal person as a religious symbol comes in phases. You have the amazement phase which is the initial one in which you will do anything for them. You have the content phase where something happens and you begin to question them. And then you have the reality phase when you learn they are just another normal person. At the end of the day a warrior culture only respects strength and tradition.

Let's assume the fight with the WW does not come until later.  If Danny losses her dragons, the Iron Borne go home, how then do you maintain a race of nomadic warrior horsemen in a huge city? Matter fact, how do a small group of pirates go home to a large group of pirates and tell them that they can't be pirates anymore? If something ever happens to her dragons I think she is going to be in for a lot of trouble unless she marries one of the great houses.

[khal drogon]

2 hours ago, Pelagie said:

 

Dothrakis use slavery...  And they are almost the center of her army !

So, principles : yes ! but with pragmatism...

 

 

"Used" slavery will be the right thing.

[House_Tony_Stark]

32 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

"Used" slavery will be the right thing.

Meh making that a past tense is like congratulating a drug addict for giving up drugs for two days while under surveillance.

Let's see how the Dothraki adjust to their new life once they have no Kingdom to topple.

[khal drogon]

28 minutes ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

Meh making that a past tense is like congratulating a drug addict for giving up drugs for two days while under surveillance.

Let's see how the Dothraki adjust to their new life once they have no Kingdom to topple.

 

What makes you think that? Why Dothraki aren't going to change? Is raping and their way of life encoded in their genes that they can't give up that? 

We are witnessing one of the changing times in the Dothraki history. A woman leading a khalasar also riding a dragon and taking them across the narrow sea is a stuff of legends. A turning point in their history like how Nymeria's Rhoynar changed into current Dornishman. At least in the books where I am expecting Dany to be named TSTMTW is going to change the Dothraki culture significantly. Like it's their near mythological figure. And she happens to be a woman and opposes rape. This while does not change their culture overnight it's going to bring a significant change to their culture. Unless you don't think of them as sterotyped dumb barbarians you could see the Dothraki way of life is set to change.

And like it or not the events in the books are the biggest challenge slavery has faced in the entire history.  Slavers bay, the heart of slavery is broken. Dothraki are entering a new era of their civilisation. The way it is happening in the books Essos cannot go to how it was before. So my point of them "used to slavery" is not far from truth.

And stop thinking them as people with hive mind with rape and pillage encoded on them.

[MoreOrLess]

1 hour ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

But here is the problem with that, seeing a normal person as a religious symbol comes in phases. You have the amazement phase which is the initial one in which you will do anything for them. You have the content phase where something happens and you begin to question them. And then you have the reality phase when you learn they are just another normal person. At the end of the day a warrior culture only respects strength and tradition.

Let's assume the fight with the WW does not come until later.  If Danny losses her dragons, the Iron Borne go home, how then do you maintain a race of nomadic warrior horsemen in a huge city? Matter fact, how do a small group of pirates go home to a large group of pirates and tell them that they can't be pirates anymore? If something ever happens to her dragons I think she is going to be in for a lot of trouble unless she marries one of the great houses.

Yes I'd agree there seems like a lot of potential for trouble with Dany if her rule/godhead is questioned by the Dothraki but in terms of how they view her and indeed in how they act but those are problems for the future rather than issues with how she came to rule them in the first place. Indeed I don't think its impossible that season 7 ends up being less a case of tension as Dany takes on an equal opposing miltary force and more a case of tension coming from looking to hold her own force together and conduct the invasion in as humane manner as possible.

As far as the Iron Born go another potential direction for them to go is to become traders, that obviously needs good sea faring ability and indeed the ability to fend of attacks from other pirates, or perhaps to work as protection for other traders? Seems quite in line with Essos sellsword culture.

[House_Tony_Stark]

1 hour ago, khal drogon said:

 

What makes you think that? Why Dothraki aren't going to change? Is raping and their way of life encoded in their genes that they can't give up that? 

We are witnessing one of the changing times in the Dothraki history. A woman leading a khalasar also riding a dragon and taking them across the narrow sea is a stuff of legends. A turning point in their history like how Nymeria's Rhoynar changed into current Dornishman. At least in the books where I am expecting Dany to be named TSTMTW is going to change the Dothraki culture significantly. Like it's their near mythological figure. And she happens to be a woman and opposes rape. This while does not change their culture overnight it's going to bring a significant change to their culture. Unless you don't think of them as sterotyped dumb barbarians you could see the Dothraki way of life is set to change.

And like it or not the events in the books are the biggest challenge slavery has faced in the entire history.  Slavers bay, the heart of slavery is broken. Dothraki are entering a new era of their civilisation. The way it is happening in the books Essos cannot go to how it was before. So my point of them "used to slavery" is not far from truth.

And stop thinking them as people with hive mind with rape and pillage encoded on them.

No one said the Dothraki are gene coded to abuse women. But being a nomadic people is their literal culture. All of the buildings and traditions for the most part involve horses. They have never lived in cities despite having the chance to live in them or capture them at any time. They are a culture of warriors and she is giving them an exciting battle.

But again the question is, who in the right mind thinks that the Dothraki are going to get of their horses once all the fighting is over and walk around Kings Landing with the rest of the peasants? Do you also think they are going to give up their gods to worship the seven?

It's easy to abolish slavery but it's not easy to ask a people to abolish their way of life. Visit the culture that the Dothraki are built on the Mongolians. They never had a problem fighting anyone but what they struggled with and what caused their downfall was trying to integrate with the people they conquered. You had some of them who did not mind becoming city folk and then you had some of them who refused to give up their traditions are being a free nomadic people who roam the plains.

The pillaging part comes from being a culture of warriors. They don't train fighting so they can have arm wrestling matches with their brother.

[House_Tony_Stark]

1 hour ago, MoreOrLess said:

Yes I'd agree there seems like a lot of potential for trouble with Dany if her rule/godhead is questioned by the Dothraki but in terms of how they view her and indeed in how they act but those are problems for the future rather than issues with how she came to rule them in the first place. Indeed I don't think its impossible that season 7 ends up being less a case of tension as Dany takes on an equal opposing miltary force and more a case of tension coming from looking to hold her own force together and conduct the invasion in as humane manner as possible.

As far as the Iron Born go another potential direction for them to go is to become traders, that obviously needs good sea faring ability and indeed the ability to fend of attacks from other pirates, or perhaps to work as protection for other traders? Seems quite in line with Essos sellsword culture.

 

Yeah, but again here is the problem I see like with some of her other groups. It's easy to support someone's cause when you are getting a direct benefit. The Greyjoy kids ran knowing their uncle was going to hunt them down and Danny was the only person they could ally with. They don't want to destroy their people, they want to kill their uncle and get control back.

The people however, choose their Uncle because he is the embodiment of their culture, talented pirates. Now if the Greyjoy kids show up with a fleet of outsiders to take on their own people that wont go well. They may very well win the battle but anyone with a ship will leave and become independent pirates or sellswords.

Lol, I'm just trying to picture the British empire sailing into the Caribbean and telling all the pirates that have to start fishing for a living.

[House_Tony_Stark]

This is all the biggest weakness of this alliance. People are allied because of specific self interests.

The Reach for example, what happens of Cersei tells one of the Tarly that House Tyrell has no heirs and once granny dies there will be civil war among the houses. If says that since all the male heirs are dead the crown now names House Tarly the news rulers of high garden there goes that alliance and the tide is suddenly shifted against Danny. 

[Morgana Lannister]

On 7/13/2016 at 3:16 PM, SeanF said:

Murdering Joffrey?  No problem.  Everyone hated the little shit, including Tyrion.

Framing Tyrion?  In a way, I think that would be easier to forgive than the murder of  Myrcella. Framing Tyrion was always business, never personal.  Plenty of dynasts will work, at least cautiously, with people who have tried to have them killed in the past, in order to pursue their ends.

But murdering Myrcella?  No one could say that was a business matter.

However, unless I have missed something (which I might have done) neither in the books nor in the show does he know who killed Joffrey; he might suspect LF's involvement, especially if he ever finds out that he was behind Sansa's disappearance, hence I think him and Sansa have to compare notes at some stage, but I just don't think he will find out about Olenna's direct involvement until much later...

[Morgana Lannister]

On 7/14/2016 at 3:22 PM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

There's no evidence books or show that despises Lannisters.  Dany's hand is a Lannister.  Who happens to be this young woman's uncle. Seriously she even accepted without comment that Jaime killed her father with good cause.  

There's a ton of evidence in books and show that Dany is incredibly not ok with child murder.  Mereen crucifixions, for example.  

They can be traders and explore what's West of Westeros.  Honestly this would be a more sustainable way to make a living than reaving / raping.  I agree that there will be Iron Islands civil war, but I do think that the II will accept Yarasha and Daenerys, if grudgingly.  

Yarasha don't have to kill Euron if Dany does it. Plus Euron killed his own brother and no one seems to care.  It's not the books.

Well, in the books, judging by the TWOW Aeron's chapter Euron appears as sympathetic as Ramsay and Joffrey added together so, even if he won the moot I can see civil war for there for sure.  Also in the show Euron wins the moot by promising his people the Iron Throne via Dany, which now he has been outwitted at.  Yara/Asha was always respected by her men... even if she is a woman, so I can't see Euron being very popular for long.  Now, is it going to be hard to persuade them to give up their ways?  Well, it has to be, so yes the problems that the Iron Islands own civil war might create (possibly by some factions seeking other allies - Cersei and Euron has been suggested by some) could be one of the problems that Dany will have to face.

As for Myrcella's death, yes there is going to be an issue there.  Show Tyrion will be enraged and even book Tyrion (even in his worse moments) ranted a lot about revenge on Cersei but whatever means if that would hurt her the most but I really think that was just a desperate rant when he was pretty much a nervous wreck and I can certainly see him coming out of it before the end of the next book so, even if that had happened in the book as it did in the show, I don't think he would be that happy either.  As for Dany herself, no she will not approve of a total unnecessary young person's killing plus if anyone reasons with her at the end of the day, as it has also been pointed out, Oberyn decided out of his own volition to fight the Mountain, so whatever his motives, noble or not, nobody can be deemed responsible but his own desire for revenge.

[Morgana Lannister]

3 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

This is all the biggest weakness of this alliance. People are allied because of specific self interests.

The Reach for example, what happens of Cersei tells one of the Tarly that House Tyrell has no heirs and once granny dies there will be civil war among the houses. If says that since all the male heirs are dead the crown now names House Tarly the news rulers of high garden there goes that alliance and the tide is suddenly shifted against Danny. 

Good point actually

[khal drogon]

4 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

No one said the Dothraki are gene coded to abuse women. But being a nomadic people is their literal culture. All of the buildings and traditions for the most part involve horses. They have never lived in cities despite having the chance to live in them or capture them at any time. They are a culture of warriors and she is giving them an exciting battle.

But again the question is, who in the right mind thinks that the Dothraki are going to get of their horses once all the fighting is over and walk around Kings Landing with the rest of the peasants? Do you also think they are going to give up their gods to worship the seven?

It's easy to abolish slavery but it's not easy to ask a people to abolish their way of life. Visit the culture that the Dothraki are built on the Mongolians. They never had a problem fighting anyone but what they struggled with and what caused their downfall was trying to integrate with the people they conquered. You had some of them who did not mind becoming city folk and then you had some of them who refused to give up their traditions are being a free nomadic people who roam the plains.

The pillaging part comes from being a culture of warriors. They don't train fighting so they can have arm wrestling matches with their brother.

That all depends on what fate Martin has planned for Dothraki. What will happen to the Dothraki that will cross the sea? Are they going to stay there or return to Essos? I am leaning towards the later. And how many of them will survive? We had 100000 wildlings attacking the wall and there may be just 4000 or something left. A similar fate for Dothraki will bring sea change. It all depends. 

Of course they are not going to change overnight. Pillaging is the way they survive and I don't expect them to suddenly go to farming. And their culture sees rape as a price of victory. But slavery is not something that is associated with their religion and culture. It was because some Dothraki khal thought it will be be an easy way for money if they sold slaves. It depends on khals really. We see khals like Drogo using threats to extort money from great cities like pentos and them showering them with 'gifts'. He even owns a big house there. And we see he decides to pillage Lhazareen only after he decides to attack Westeros as a way to raise money. This at least shows selling people in to slavery isn't their only option.

And there is a possibility that we are actually seeing the downfall of Dothraki like the Mongols and that depends on how it will all play out. As of now we don't have a clue. We have to see how the culture shock of seeing the snowy land across the poison water going to affect them. Whatever it maybe things are happening for Dothraki which has never happened in their thousand years of history. And we really don't know what will happen to their civilisation but we know they are set to change. For glory or for doom remains to be seen.