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War Amongst The Starks


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7 hours ago, GravyFace said:

Sansa finishing LF wouldn't be shocking though. It's almost expected. What would be shocking would be Sansa betraying Jon.

It may be somewhat shocking, but Sansa has already played the judas role, albeit unwittingly, when she tells cersei about her fathers plan to send the girls home after he finds out about joffery being a bastatd. The theme of sansa being older and smarter because of her terrible experiences goes out the window if she does the same again-and she ends the show right were she started. Your right that isnt terribly hard to figure this out though, thats why all the behind the scenes allusions to the contrary.

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7 hours ago, GravyFace said:

Sansa finishing LF wouldn't be shocking though. It's almost expected. What would be shocking would be Sansa betraying Jon.

There is shocking and there there are things that just don't make sense. She has to have a motivation to betray Jon. She didn't tell him about the Vale Army, but she didn't use it against him either. If she was going to betray him, she should have moved quickly after the battle to get rid of him. She should not have warned him at the war council. When she is in the Godswood, she says she was stupid for only thinking about what she wanted not about what she had. There were lots of opportunities for the writers to clue us into an upcoming betrayal. I think the season trailer had a line from her that said something like all she thinks about is what was taken from her. I never heard that line in the show. If she had said that in the Godswood then I could see an upcoming betrayal. As things stand, I don't see it. 

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1 hour ago, Masha said:

I don't think that Sansa will betray Jon that much enough to divide the North or drive him off. 

At this point its obvious that Sansa will end up with Winterfell. If Sansa is weak-willed enough to allow LF discord to manipulate her and drive Jon off, it will take off the good will from Sansa character and D&D want Sansa to keep that if she ends up with WF.

Its clear that neither Bran nor Arya will end up inheriting WF, Bran will be 3d Raven if he survives, and whatever Arya ends up as (if not dead), it will not be the Lady of Wintefell. 

Jon will have 3 ways out at the end of the show, its either die in final battle, end up with Iron Throne as Targ, or drop everything and just chill, but I am pretty sure he willingly leaves WF for Sansa and leaves on good-terms with her, which will not happen if she drives him off or gets half of North against him.

This is not the first time Sansa "accidentally betrayed" her family. If she knows that Jon isn't her brother, she might feel cheated and maybe even mad towards him (all those years her mother was so desperate because her father wanted to protect just a nephew, and so many people in the family died because of Jon). If LF knows of this, there is huge chance he will use it to divide Sansa and Jon. After all even if Jon is a Targ, he is still a bastard and Northern people dislike Targ anyway. 

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13 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

This is not the first time Sansa "accidentally betrayed" her family. If she knows that Jon isn't her brother, she might feel cheated and maybe even mad towards him (all those years her mother was so desperate because her father wanted to protect just a nephew, and so many people in the family died because of Jon). If LF knows of this, there is huge chance he will use it to divide Sansa and Jon. After all even if Jon is a Targ, he is still a bastard and Northern people dislike Targ anyway. 

In the show, she only did it once by staying quiet and paid for it with her wolf's life. There was no blabbing to Cersei there as in the books. 

No, there will be no "accidental" or otherwise her betraying Jon that badly. She will not go that far. Otherwise D&D will risk loosing sympathy for her from the fans, as regards to her being weak and easily manipulated by LF, when she is not supposed to be anymore.

Secondly, North really doesn't hate or dislike ALL Targs that much. Only Mad King. I never got that feelings from them in the books or in the show. I mean we have that speech by GreatJon Umber from the first KofN crowning for Robb saying, that we only bowed for dragons and dragons are now gone. Thats not saying that North hates dragons, just that the only one who North will bow to are dragons.

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1 hour ago, Masha said:

In the show, she only did it once by staying quiet and paid for it with her wolf's life. There was no blabbing to Cersei there as in the books. 

No, there will be no "accidental" or otherwise her betraying Jon that badly. She will not go that far. Otherwise D&D will risk loosing sympathy for her from the fans, as regards to her being weak and easily manipulated by LF, when she is not supposed to be anymore.

Secondly, North really doesn't hate or dislike ALL Targs that much. Only Mad King. I never got that feelings from them in the books or in the show. I mean we have that speech by GreatJon Umber from the first KofN crowning for Robb saying, that we only bowed for dragons and dragons are now gone. Thats not saying that North hates dragons, just that the only one who North will bow to are dragons.

The North declared for Jon because they thought he's Ned's son. He looks like Ned, he acts like Ned. Now if they find out Jon is just a Targ bastard, they (including Sansa) might feel cheated and betrayed. I don't think Sansa will betray Jon in the sense of selling him to LF or so. But once she knows Jon isn't her brother, even half, her attitude will change drastically. Sansa and most of Westeros still believe that Lyanna was kidnapped and because of that her grandfather and uncle were killed, ten thousands of people died in that war just because Rhaegar chose Lyanna. If they still believe Jon is the result of rape, there will be some hostility towards Jon. And Sansa might come to think that she deserves more than her cousin. 

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In terms of the time it takes for things to happen, what do you guys think would be faster: 1) the entire north being told and being convinced that Jon is a Targaryen or 2) a spoiled traumatized princess finding a reason to hate her bastard brother?

I´m not asking because they´re exclusive or anything, just to understand the assumptions being made throughout the thread. Because the first seems completely certain to happen, and the second completely certain not to, and I just don´t see it. Unless things happen(or don´t), like people apparently hate, because the plot says so.

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44 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

But once she knows Jon isn't her brother, even half, her attitude will change drastically. 

If that happens, it will be a magnificent example of lazy writing and poor character development.  

She grew up with Jon. He's family. She isn't going to suddenly hate him because of a lie that Ned told, literally everyone who wasn't at the ToJ to know better.  

I just don't buy it, and have faith that they won't use this cheap CW gimmick in order to inject needless drama into the show.  

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9 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

If that happens, it will be a magnificent example of lazy writing and poor character development.  

She grew up with Jon. He's family. She isn't going to suddenly hate him because of a lie that Ned told, literally everyone who wasn't at the ToJ to know better.  

I just don't buy it, and have faith that they won't use this cheap CW gimmick in order to inject needless drama into the show.  

I don't say Sansa will turn to hate Jon. The thing is, what connects her to Jon is only "half". Once she knows he is not even half of a brother to her, she might feel cheated. Like, "the North should belong to the Stark, not a Targ bastard", not to mention she might assume that Jon was the result of a kidnap case which led to thousands death. She always thinks of Jon as having lower born than her. So what if she finds out that he is a Targ, royal bastard is still bastard anyway. Sansa might demand that she should get more support from the North over a Targ bastard. Unless Bran suddenly appears with proof that jon's parents did get married... Now if that happens the attitude of people will change a lot. 

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24 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

If that happens, it will be a magnificent example of lazy writing and poor character development.  

She grew up with Jon. He's family. She isn't going to suddenly hate him because of a lie that Ned told, literally everyone who wasn't at the ToJ to know better.  

I just don't buy it, and have faith that they won't use this cheap CW gimmick in order to inject needless drama into the show.  

She grew up not being very fond of him, mirroring her mother who flat out despised him.

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3 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I don't say Sansa will turn to hate Jon. The thing is, what connects her to Jon is only "half". Once she knows he is not even half of a brother to her, she might feel cheated. Like, "the North should belong to the Stark, not a Targ bastard", not to mention she might assume that Jon was the result of a kidnap case which led to thousands death. She always thinks of Jon as having lower born than her. So what if she finds out that he is a Targ, royal bastard is still bastard anyway. Sansa might demand that she should get more support from the North over a Targ bastard. Unless Bran suddenly appears with proof that jon's parents did get married... Now if that happens the attitude of people will change a lot. 

That would undermine every inch of character development in Sansa's storyline that has had her mature from a spoiled little brat princess into someone who sees the world more clearly and has the scars to prove it.  

They're also playing up the similarities that Jon has with Ned, and I believe that is specifically to give Sansa a form of second chance.  She said it herself that she was stupid and worried more about what she wanted instead of what she had. 

You don't have a character come to that kind of epiphany only to discard it moments later for "reasons".  

She was the first to lose her wolf, but at the end of episode 9 I believe she found it again and I think she's going to do some serious damage in defense of Jon Snow and the rest of her family.  

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1 minute ago, NutBurz said:

She grew up not being very fond of him, mirroring her mother who flat out despised him.

She was kind of horrible all around, but in the show there isn't really any evidence of that relationship aside from their reunion scene.  

That came across more like a "life's been shitty since we left Winterfell in season 1, we should have been nicer to each other because we're family and everyone else sucks."

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19 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I don't say Sansa will turn to hate Jon. The thing is, what connects her to Jon is only "half". Once she knows he is not even half of a brother to her, she might feel cheated. Like, "the North should belong to the Stark, not a Targ bastard", not to mention she might assume that Jon was the result of a kidnap case which led to thousands death. She always thinks of Jon as having lower born than her. So what if she finds out that he is a Targ, royal bastard is still bastard anyway. Sansa might demand that she should get more support from the North over a Targ bastard. Unless Bran suddenly appears with proof that jon's parents did get married... Now if that happens the attitude of people will change a lot. 

I can just see Sansa yelling at Drogon, why are you letting him ride you, he's only my cousin.... 

The starks have been through their inter-family drama. Half of em are dead, and real enimies are in abundance. There are maybe 20 episodes left, sansa is not going to start a queen in the north movement. The dragons will chose Jon, then Dany will. Sansa will protect jons back from Littlemember. Then the big finale, watch the end of Hardhomme if you cant see where this is all going.

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3 minutes ago, KingInTheBay said:

I can just see Sansa yelling at Drogon, why are you letting him ride you, he's only my cousin.... 

The starks have been through their inter-family drama. Half of em are dead, and real enimies are in abundance. There are maybe 20 episodes left, sansa is not going to start a queen in the north movement. The dragons will chose Jon, then Dany will. Sansa will protect jons back from Littlemember. Then the big finale, watch the end of Hardhomme if you cant see where this is all going.

LOL. I can definately see Arya (and even Sansa) getting jealous of Dany because she might co-opt Jon, like he is my family not yours! 

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4 minutes ago, KingInTheBay said:

I can just see Sansa yelling at Drogon, why are you letting him ride you, he's only my cousin.... 

The starks have been through their inter-family drama. Half of em are dead, and real enimies are in abundance. There are maybe 20 episodes left, sansa is not going to start a queen in the north movement. The dragons will chose Jon, then Dany will. Sansa will protect jons back from Littlemember. Then the big finale, watch the end of Hardhomme if you cant see where this is all going.

If she show waste time on some silly talks at Meeren... I'm not surprised if they somehow get more civil war in the north for season 7.

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3 hours ago, King Onion Knight said:

No it is not shocking to us. To the common viewer, if they tease Jon and Sansa fighting one another, will fall for it. 

I started re-watching again from season one, and it was particularly in Blackwater episode that a thought occured to me.  Joffrey said something and Sansa said that she was stupid, a stupid little girl.  Later on, when she was being grabbed by her aunt Lysa, she also said that she was stupid.  In both scenes, she was trying to deflect the other person.  I rewatched the godswood scene with Littlefinger, and she refers to herself as a stupid little girl again.  I would like to think that she was already subtly trying to get Littlefinger to reveal his plans to her, and start to use him, but I'm actually afraid that hoping for this is giving the writers too much credit.  I hope so though, because I do not want any Stark in-fighting in the next two seasons.

 

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29 minutes ago, Masha said:

LOL. I can definately see Arya (and even Sansa) getting jealous of Dany because she might co-opt Jon, like he is my family not yours! 

Oh yes. but the way i see it is Arya and Sansa fighting for the attention of Jon, and it would be glorious for me. This is how i see things happening. Arya finds out Jon has taken the north, if she decides to go there, she'll meet sansa first. When it come to meeting Jon again, i believe that she'll have some problems with it because she has changed so much. She's a killer now and she loved him so much that she might feel that seeing him might weaken her, might bring her back to her happiness in the past and might weaken her resolve. In any case i feel that after the feelings of meeting him again are resolved, she and sansa are gonna fight for his attention.

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51 minutes ago, tormond said:

Oh yes. but the way i see it is Arya and Sansa fighting for the attention of Jon, and it would be glorious for me. This is how i see things happening. Arya finds out Jon has taken the north, if she decides to go there, she'll meet sansa first. When it come to meeting Jon again, i believe that she'll have some problems with it because she has changed so much. She's a killer now and she loved him so much that she might feel that seeing him might weaken her, might bring her back to her happiness in the past and might weaken her resolve. In any case i feel that after the feelings of meeting him again are resolved, she and sansa are gonna fight for his attention.

So Bran won't fight for Jon's attention? Jon and Bran also need some bro time.  

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