Is Dany barren in the show?

[grufolo]

22 hours ago, Shortspear Rick said:

Yeah, I understand the way prophecies work, especially in this story. What I'm saying is what makes Mirri Maz Duur's words to Dany a prophesy? She was a witch with knowledge of blood magic to be sure but who's to say she had the ability to foresee the future.

If there's one topos in fantasy/medieval literature is that a curse uttered by a whitch about to be burned is ALWAYS and invariably going to come true. Always.

[Shortspear Rick]

2 hours ago, grufolo said:

If there's one topos in fantasy/medieval literature is that a curse uttered by a whitch about to be burned is ALWAYS and invariably going to come true. Always.

So what you're saying is that Khal Drogo is coming back? Because that's what her curse or prophesy or whatever you want to call it was pertaining to.

[grufolo]

23 minutes ago, Shortspear Rick said:

So what you're saying is that Khal Drogo is coming back? Because that's what her curse or prophesy or whatever you want to call it was pertaining to.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Maybe Drogo is not the "he" refers to. Maybe it's the son?

Anywho, it would be nice if someone poster a bit more of the previous sentences in the page

[brightflame princess]

On 7/5/2016 at 3:30 AM, grufolo said:

Prophecies are something to be taken very seriously in the world of ice and fire.

Specifically, those uttered by witches, they are the most relevan, hence Daenerys prophecy will come true, as will those that Quaithe has foreseen, and Cersei's (this one's almost completely fulfilled)

But she didn't say it at as prophecy. She said it as a response to a question. When will the khal be like he was? Never...

[brightflame princess]

1 hour ago, grufolo said:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Maybe Drogo is not the "he" refers to. Maybe it's the son?

Anywho, it would be nice if someone poster a bit more of the previous sentences in the page

The sentence right before mirri says this, is as follows..

"When will he be as he was?," Dany demanded.

Then it goes into what mirri says about the sun rising in the west and all that.

And this is from the show..

He lives.
You asked for life, you paid for life.
This is not life.
When will he be as he was? When the sun rises in the west, sets in the east.
When the seas go dry.
When the mountains blow in the wind like leaves.

 

The show mentions nothing about her womb quickening tho.

So it's definitely an answer to a question.. And it pertains to the khal coming back, which isn't going to happen. So yeah, in my opinion she is barren. And that is not a prophecy, because the khal is definitely not coming back, and that's the main point of what mirri says. When all these impossible things happen, drogo will return. They aren't talking about rhaego, because it's drogo laying there not moving or speaking that she is referring to.

[nothatso]

5 minutes ago, brightflame princess said:

The show mentions nothing about her womb quickening tho.

So it's definitely an answer to a question.. And it pertains to the khal coming back, which isn't going to happen. So yeah, in my opinion she is barren. And that is not a prophecy, because the khal is definitely not coming back, and that's the main point of what mirri says. When all these impossible things happen, drogo will return. They aren't talking about rhaego, because it's drogo laying there not moving or speaking that she is referring to.

I'm having difficulty understanding your logic here. What out of what you said points to her being barren? As you said yourself, nothing in that scene is in reference to Dany's fertility. Am I missing something?

[brightflame princess]

19 minutes ago, nothatso said:

I'm having difficulty understanding your logic here. What out of what you said points to her being barren? As you said yourself, nothing in that scene is in reference to Dany's fertility. Am I missing something?

I suppose you are right, but that's still my opinion, probably because of the books.

The examples from book and show that I posted are more to prove that it's not a prophecy than to prove that she is barren. Like I said, that's just my opinion.

It's hard for me to imagine that they would deviate that much from the books. 

[brightflame princess]

2 hours ago, grufolo said:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Maybe Drogo is not the "he" refers to. Maybe it's the son?

Anywho, it would be nice if someone poster a bit more of the previous sentences in the page

 

Here's another quote from a clash of kings, I believe. I know it's from the books, but it would be very off if the show had dany give birth to a living child, and the books didn't. Anything could happen tho.

 

Spoiler

"Gods grant that we have made a son tonight." The words of Mirri Maz Duur rang in her head. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before. The meaning was plain enough; Khal Drogo was as like to return from the dead as she was to bear a living child. But there are some secrets she could not bring herself to share, even with a husband, so she let Hizdahr zo Loraq keep his hopes.

 

 

[Shortspear Rick]

1 hour ago, grufolo said:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Maybe Drogo is not the "he" refers to. Maybe it's the son?

Anywho, it would be nice if someone poster a bit more of the previous sentences in the page

Omg, you are as stubborn as the people who still refuse to acknowledge Jon is Rhaegar's son. Mirri Maz Duur was clearly answering Dany about Khal Drogo. Like, there is literally no room for misinterpretation yet you stubbornly want to invent some other meaning in your head. It's pointless (yet for some reason I always try) debating people like you because you're so unable to fathom that you might be wrong that you misconstrue or ignore facts that other people give you. In the books, Dany is definitely barren and Mirri Maz Duur didn't prophesies that she would be able to have children once the sun sets in the east and the seas go dry, she was telling Dany that the Drogo she knew was never going to return. These. Are. Facts. That you want to twist the text into something else has no bearing. It's like science, it doesn't need your approval to be true. Now, since the part about her womb was left out of the show there may be a chance that she may one day be able to have another child on HBO but it's not because of some made up prophesy coming to fruition, it would be an adaptive change made by D&D. Intelligent theories are derived from facts leading to a certain conclusion not coming to a conclusion and then twisting the text to make it sound plausible. You are so consumed by the common thematic element in fantasy of a witch making a prophesy or curse before her death that you can't even interpret straight forward text. 

[Shortspear Rick]

4 minutes ago, brightflame princess said:

 

Here's another quote from a clash of kings, I believe. I know it's from the books, but it would be very off if the show had dany give birth to a living child, and the books didn't. Anything could happen tho.

 

"Gods grant that we have made a son tonight." The words of Mirri Maz Duur rang in her head. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before. The meaning was plain enough; Khal Drogo was as like to return from the dead as she was to bear a living child. But there are some secrets she could not bring herself to share, even with a husband, so she let Hizdahr zo Loraq keep his hopes.

 

 

Thank you. I mean, if there was ever any doubt Dany herself reiterates what I've been trying to say on this thread. However, that quote would be from Dance with Dragons. The point is still the same though. Khal Drogo was as like to return from the dead as she was to bear a living child. And by that point Khal Drogo was most certainly and without any controversy dead, burned and scattered to the wind. It's not some prophesy, just long winded shit talking. Some folks can't admit when they're wrong though.

[brightflame princess]

4 minutes ago, Shortspear Rick said:

Thank you. I mean, if there was ever any doubt Dany herself reiterates what I've been trying to say on this thread. However, that quote would be from Dance with Dragons. The point is still the same though. Khal Drogo was as like to return from the dead as she was to bear a living child. And by that point Khal Drogo was most certainly and without any controversy dead, burned and scattered to the wind. It's not some prophesy, just long winded shit talking. Some folks can't admit when they're wrong though.

Thank you for letting me know which book it's from. I will edit it.

[nothatso]

38 minutes ago, brightflame princess said:

I suppose you are right, but that's still my opinion, probably because of the books.

The examples from book and show that I posted are more to prove that it's not a prophecy than to prove that she is barren. Like I said, that's just my opinion.

It's hard for me to imagine that they would deviate that much from the books. 

I don't think they'd deviate that much from the books either... I just don't think she's barren in the books. I think MMD was filling her head with nonsense (I think Dany's misinterpretation and naive belief in prophecy is a central part of her character arc) and that she was having a miscarriage brought on by the consumption of poison berries at the end of ADWD.

[grufolo]

10 hours ago, Shortspear Rick said:

Thank you. I mean, if there was ever any doubt Dany herself reiterates what I've been trying to say on this thread. However, that quote would be from Dance with Dragons. The point is still the same though. Khal Drogo was as like to return from the dead as she was to bear a living child. And by that point Khal Drogo was most certainly and without any controversy dead, burned and scattered to the wind. It's not some prophesy, just long winded shit talking. Some folks can't admit when they're wrong though.

That's the way curses and prophecies are written and told, so that they may appear to mean something, but may also be read differently. You're entitled to what you wish to believe, but chosing to word it that way rather than a simple "never" may have its consequences.
It is no coincidence that GRRM decided to quote it in a different book, several years later.

[Shortspear Rick]

3 hours ago, grufolo said:

That's the way curses and prophecies are written and told, so that they may appear to mean something, but may also be read differently. You're entitled to what you wish to believe, but chosing to word it that way rather than a simple "never" may have its consequences.
It is no coincidence that GRRM decided to quote it in a different book, several years later.

This is you, refusing to accept reality. Seriously dude, I feel sorry for you. I'm washing my hands of this thread because you have absolutely no capability of listening to reason. Now you're saying that it couldn't possibly as simple as it is because of its verbosity. Sigh. I'd accuse you of just being a troll but I'm certain you actually believe your inane postulating. 

 

[CaliWolf]

On 7/5/2016 at 1:18 PM, Shortspear Rick said:

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.”

I think you can only take this as a prophecy if you've read the books. But still, it's about when Khal Drogo will return, not whether or not Dany is barren. But as far as the show is concerned, she certainly believes she's barren, but there is no reason to actually believe her. Cersei is convinced Tyrion killed Joffrey, it doesn't make it true.

But if we do take it as a prophecy, there are many things that happen in quick succession at the end of aDwD:

Spoiler

 

Sun rises in the west and sets in the east -  If you read aDwD you know that the Sun is directly used in prophecy by Quaith to refer to the Martells. It just so happens that Prince Quentin Martell starting in Dorn (west) before setting off to Meereen (east), where he recently died. Also Prince (f)Aegon is trying to get Dorns help, which could also easily qualify as the "Sun rises in the West".

Seas go Dry - In a prophecy back in Winterfell, Jojen sees the sea coming over the walls, which ends up refering to Theon Greyjoy. So Seas going dry could just refer to a Greyjoy going on land. It just so happens that the beginning of tWoW will be Victarion landing at Meereen and fighting the Yunkai. Or this could be as simple as when Dany notices that the dothraki sea (grass) is dying (turning yellow).

Mountains blow in the wind like the leaves - A few great pyramids of meereen are burned down into ash (which can blow in the wind) by her other two dragons. 

When your womb quickens again - at the end of aDwD she gets here period after a while. I'm pretty sure it never mentions her having a period after she gets pregnant, and she doesn't remember the last time she got it.

When you bear a living child - She already has bared a living child, in fact she has bared 3 of them. However, since it seems all this happens in quick succession, I think "bear a living child" might refer to her being able to direct Drogon when she's flying (like she's bearing Drogon due north).

 

 

But even knowing this is referring to Drogo returning, I don't believe that this means he is coming back from the dead. It probably means that she will return to the Dothraki and get herself a new Khalasar; with DrogoN, who is named after Drogo, so It's like he's returning.The Khal that finds here was one of Drogo's Ko's. "He will be as he was". Which is the head of the Khalesar.

 

[MoIaF]

On 7/5/2016 at 3:26 AM, Chib said:

I remember someone said that in some commentaries after the show, D&D actually said Dany's barren or so. Does that mean Dany will never have a child again? 

I don't remember that commentary video, anyone give me a link?

D&D, never said that Dany was barren. What they said at the end of 6x06 (Blood of My Blood) was that  “Daenerys talks about the dragon being her children and that the dragons will be the only children she’ll have.”  D&D are clearly stated what Dany BELIEVES. I firmly believe that Dany is not barren . She will have a child before the end. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Dany, like other characters can be whatever the show runners want her to be so.....

[Winterstars]

I hope she is not.

I don't really like her, but to see Targaryen features will be extinct, just nooo! Because I love silver hair! Haha.

Jon is targaryen, but his appearance is all Stark, so...yeah 

[TheKnightOfJests]

Jorah joins the faith of Rhillor to cure his greyscale, he comes back, Dany sleeps with him, and she dies giving birth to a shadow dragon.

The End.

[Darksky]

She should be. Logically speaking. And not because of some mumbo jumbo magic but because of being heavily inbred. Same goes for Rhaegar, but he was able to produce issue with ease because reasons. Rhaego likely died because of Dany's messed up weakened genetic background and not Maz Duur's magic. All of the inbred Targaryens are said to be perfect looking which is another headscratching thing. most should have some deformities, like incest-produced King Tutankhamun. ASOIAF is full of irrational situations but it doesn't matter, it's fantasy fiction. It's only Game of Thrones which is unexplicably expected to adhere to realism in most cases.

Daenerys could be like Maria I of Portugal, who has gone down in history as The Mad Queen. She was inbred.

Daenerys as Queen is worthless if she's unable to continue the line. Her only option would be naming another Targ (hopefully non-inbred) her heir who would do so in her stead.