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Is Jaime a good jouster or not?


Eiko Dragonhorn

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It seems like he always loses...

- Lost to Loras when dagger changes hands.

- Lost to Sandor during "The Hand's Tourney" of book 1.

- Lost to Jorah the Explorer.

Cersei mentions him "ruling the lists"... but I can't think of any he actually won.

Anyone got some evidence for Jaime actually being a good jouster rather than just a good swordsman?

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I personally don't think he's an extraordinary  jouster, like you mentioned, in the book he lost quite a lot and i don't believe Cersei that much, After all she also mentioned that Robert won a joust against Rhaegar and crowned her. Many thinks he's a great swordsman though that's why i think that good jouster does not always equal good swordsman

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Guest jasonothegreat
45 minutes ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

It seems like he always loses...

- Lost to Loras when dagger changes hands.

- Lost to Sandor during "The Hand's Tourney" of book 1.

- Lost to Jorah the Explorer.

Cersei mentions him "ruling the lists"... but I can't think of any he actually won.

Anyone got some evidence for Jaime actually being a good jouster rather than just a good swordsman?

He still seems to make it to the semifinals in many of his jousts, I think he just lost his jousting glory with age while younger more sharper Knights came to outclass him

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I think that Jamie is a pretty good jouster and among the better ones in Westeros. Given that, from what we know according to the wiki, won the one at the Robert-Cersei wedding, came to the final at Lannisport after the Greyjoy Rebellion and came semi-final in the Hand's Tourney. Only in the tourney in 298 AC did Jaime go out early. As such of four tourneys where we know Jamie rode, he won one, went to final joust in one, semi-final joust in one and was knocked out earlier in one. That's a pretty good record as far as I can tell.

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One small thing, Jorah did not beat Jaime. Robert gave the win to Jorah.

"In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion’s laurel." - ACoK - p.198

It could have just been spite from Robert towards Jaime. Or Robert being caught up in the moment of some northern lout doing well at a joust. Or some combination of both.

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I think Jaime's swordsmanship is meant as a symbol for Lannisters: not as "golden" as their reputation. 

In addition to the examples above, Jaime can barely stay on his feet when fighting Brienne, who he's just spent a great deal of time deriding.

The biggest legends are also humble, while Jaime is not.

Jaime being an only average swordsman fits well into his overall arc of leaving behind an uncomfortable identity that he inhabited since being named to the Kingsguard.

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41 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I think Jaime's swordsmanship is meant as a symbol for Lannisters: not as "golden" as their reputation. 

In addition to the examples above, Jaime can barely stay on his feet when fighting Brienne, who he's just spent a great deal of time deriding.

The biggest legends are also humble, while Jaime is not.

Jaime being an only average swordsman fits well into his overall arc of leaving behind an uncomfortable identity that he inhabited since being named to the Kingsguard.

Jaime was just out of prison, where he'd been chained and underfed, and he was shackled while fighting Brienne, and he nearly beat her. In good condition, not shackled, he would have easily defeated her, and she's an excellent fighter. 

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1 hour ago, cgrav said:

I think Jaime's swordsmanship is meant as a symbol for Lannisters: not as "golden" as their reputation. 

In addition to the examples above, Jaime can barely stay on his feet when fighting Brienne, who he's just spent a great deal of time deriding.

The biggest legends are also humble, while Jaime is not.

Jaime being an only average swordsman fits well into his overall arc of leaving behind an uncomfortable identity that he inhabited since being named to the Kingsguard.

It doesn't fit well with what the author has said and what's in the text

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1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Jaime was just out of prison, where he'd been chained and underfed, and he was shackled while fighting Brienne, and he nearly beat her. In good condition, not shackled, he would have easily defeated her, and she's an excellent fighter. 

 I considered those circumstances, but I think that scene is there for a reason: to show us that Jaime's pride and reputation are not earned. Add to that that he's in the situation because he was captured.

Contrast to Tyrion, who manages to stumble into valor at Green Fork the same day that Jaime is captured, and then leads a charge during Blackwater. 

Jaime is continually confronted with a reality that does not match what he thinks of himself or what he wants others to think of him. Losing a fight to a "wench", even with mitigating circumstances, is near the bottom of his identity loss arc (of which losing his hand is the rock bottom). It's ptetty shortly after his fight with Brienne that he goes back to Harrenhall to save her. I think we're supposed to understand their fight as putting a big dent in his pride.

Given the events listed and the direction of his plot, I think there's no reason to believe that Jaime is as good at war as he's reputed to be, and that we readers are in fact meant to see the wide gap between his pride and his accomplishments.

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4 hours ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

It seems like he always loses...

- Lost to Loras when dagger changes hands.

- Lost to Sandor during "The Hand's Tourney" of book 1.

- Lost to Jorah the Explorer.

Cersei mentions him "ruling the lists"... but I can't think of any he actually won.

Anyone got some evidence for Jaime actually being a good jouster rather than just a good swordsman?

Well, Loras defeating Jaime at Joffrey's name day tournament appears to have been an upset, since so many people lost their bets that day, and Loras is no slouch at jousting. Sandor Clegane is massive and incredibly strong, and clearly skilled enough to win his other jousts (in comparison to Dunk, who was also massive and strong but did not have the training/finesse to translate his size into wins). And, as others have pointed out, Jaime and Jorah technically tied that day, and Jorah himself admits he was having a ridiculously good day. 

The problem is we have really only heard of Jaime's losses, we do not have a record of every joust Jaime has entered. These losses are notable because Jaime lost, which says (at least to me) Jaime losing is out of the ordinary, so yeah, Jaime is probably a pretty good jouster, in addition to his swordsmanship skills.

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@Eiko Dragonhorn: "Lost to Loras when dagger changes hands. "

But this, as far as we know, never happened. It was a fabrication by Petyr Baelish to frame Tyrion. The dragonbone/valerian steel dagger that Baelish claimed had been his and had been won by Tyrion (betting against his older brother, yeah sure), was never in the possession of Littlefinger. It was Robert Baratheon's, from start to finish.

Given the dagger "bet" was a fabrication, I think there's also doubt that Loras beat Jaime, or that that tourney even occurred. Remember, Littlefinger was talking to Cat and Ned, neither of whom had been in King's Landing for a decade or so, and didn't keep up with the tourney circuit. So don't hold this "loss" as recounted by a known and near-legendary liar and manipulator against the Kingslayer!

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6 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

The problem is we have really only heard of Jaime's losses, we do not have a record of every joust Jaime has entered. These losses are notable because Jaime lost, which says (at least to me) Jaime losing is out of the ordinary, so yeah, Jaime is probably a pretty good jouster, in addition to his swordsmanship skills.

But this is what the author had chosen to show us. Do we have any record of Jaime winning? We have many examples of other characters defying odds in battle, or other dangerous situations. 

 

So why only present Jaime's losses? It's in clear contrast to his arrogance and reputation. I doubt that GRRM intended for us to think of Jaime as a great warrior and just forgot to include any scenes that would prove it.

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19 minutes ago, cgrav said:

But this is what the author had chosen to show us. Do we have any record of Jaime winning? We have many examples of other characters defying odds in battle, or other dangerous situations. 

 

So why only present Jaime's losses? It's in clear contrast to his arrogance and reputation. I doubt that GRRM intended for us to think of Jaime as a great warrior and just forgot to include any scenes that would prove it.

Jaime winning would not be defying odds, Jaime losing would. We do not have a listing of all the great deeds of Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne, and we know Barristan lost to Rhaeghar (and Jaime) and Arthur lost to Ned and Howland Reed, yet their greatness is still accepted. Loras defeated Gregor Clegane using what most consider an underhanded trick, and would have been murdered by Gregor had Sandor not stepped in. Do you question Loras's abilities? 

We do have a record of Aerys withholding Jaime from the tournament when he was named to the Kingsguard, perhaps he was withheld from other tournaments as well, as a way to deny him (and by extension Tywin) as much glory as possible. Jaime made it to the semifinals of the joust in the Hand's Tourney, which takes either considerable skill or exceptional luck. Seeing as we are told Jaime is one of the most talented Knights in the realm, the more reasonable explanation is Jaime is quite skilled. Humility does not guarantee truth, and arrogance does not indicate falsehood.

But most importantly, what does it add to the story if Jaime is not "as good at war as he is reputed to be?"

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45 minutes ago, cgrav said:

But this is what the author had chosen to show us. Do we have any record of Jaime winning? We have many examples of other characters defying odds in battle, or other dangerous situations. 

 

So why only present Jaime's losses? It's in clear contrast to his arrogance and reputation. I doubt that GRRM intended for us to think of Jaime as a great warrior and just forgot to include any scenes that would prove it.

There is the whole part about him cutting through Robb's bodyguards and nearly killing him at the Whispering Wood, Barristan implying he's the most naturally gifted swordsman he's ever seen, and if he was such a fraud you'd think his fellow KG or peers would notice it and not be so afraid of him.

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