Jon, Sansa and the Battle Prep

[Wilnova]

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I came across this piece by Laura Hudson on Wired recently. It's part of a full episode wrap-up, so you'll have to scroll about halfway down, but here is the salient quote:

"There’s been some criticism of Sansa for not sharing strategic information with her brother, which misses one very important point: Jon might be a great paladin, but he’s a terrible commander, a man who always telegraphs his moves, because his move will always be to do the Right Thing. Not sharing the linchpin secret of their only chance at victory with the Leeroy Jenkins of Westeros wasn’t just a defensible choice for Sansa, it was a borderline brilliant one; the best way to take down Ramsay Bolton was to make him think that Jon was falling into his trap, and since Jon has consistently proven that he’s too Lawful Good to effectively scheme against anyone, tricking Jon was the only way to get it done. Sansa apologizes anyway, because apparently she has to do everything around here, get no credit for it, and still say she’s sorry for hurting Jon’s fee-fees."

 

Typical Sansa Stan BS. If one goes on tumblr this is all we get. Along with complaints about Jon stealing Sansa's birth right.

9 hours ago, Lady Knows Nothing said:

 He understands battle and knows how to work with what he's got while Sansa understands politics and how the game of thrones works and the people involved in the game.

Sansa may understand southern politics but she is a novice when it comes to the North. She got burned by Glover. Lyanna Mormont joined in only for Jon after Davos mentions Jeor's support for Jon. Sansa actually suggests that the Karstarks would support them despite Robb's actions and Davos has to explain some facts to her. The same Davos whom she constantly disparages to Jon.

The Northern army is Jon's. The Vale army is LF and Sansa's. Sansa has no understanding of Northern politics.

Sansa gave just one good piece of advice: Ramsay plays mind tricks. And that's about it. And what use is that advice when someone sees their little brother running towards them trying to evade arrows.

[Chib]

1 hour ago, Wilnova said:

Typical Sansa Stan BS. If one goes on tumblr this is all we get. Along with complaints about Jon stealing Sansa's birth right.

Sansa may understand southern politics but she is a novice when it comes to the North. She got burned by Glover. Lyanna Mormont joined in only for Jon after Davos mentions Jeor's support for Jon. Sansa actually suggests that the Karstarks would support them despite Robb's actions and Davos has to explain some facts to her. The same Davos whom she constantly disparages to Jon.

The Northern army is Jon's. The Vale army is LF and Sansa's. Sansa has no understanding of Northern politics.

Sansa gave just one good piece of advice: Ramsay plays mind tricks. And that's about it. And what use is that advice when someone sees their little brother running towards them trying to evade arrows.

 

 

 

Lol I remember those "feminist posts" by those tumblr posts. No logic whatsoever and most of them don't even care, they just think that their female idol was robbed and they react stupidly. As a woman myself, I am so fed up with this kind of reaction to support any female character just because they appeal to the mass. Most of them still ignore the fact that Sansa is still listed as Lady of Winterfell which is her birthright on HBO's OFFICIAL website.

What D&D did to Sansa's characterization is not feminism writing.  If drama is what they want, they're portraying a Sansa who makes use of her family and eventually might betray her own family instead. 

And I am also fed up with the kind of "birthright" argument. This is the time of war. There is almost no law in the time of war. If there has been anything we call the rule of war, then it's the rule of who comes first who claims it first. 

[Future Null Infinity]

D&D made a lot of confusion by not telling in the episode that KitN is not the same thing as Lord of Winterfell, it pushed the people to check for the answer from the website, same thing happened with the father of Jon, they didn't put it in the scene, and put the confirmation in their website, so what is the purpose of the show if we need an external confirmation for everything?

[GravyFace]

1 hour ago, Wilnova said:

Typical Sansa Stan BS. If one goes on tumblr this is all we get. Along with complaints about Jon stealing Sansa's birth right.

To be fair, I read several reviews from major sites/magazines that basically agree with the original post. The NY Daily News, Variety, Slate, they all called Jon a terrible leader/commander after episode 9. It's not just Sansa stans on tumblr.

[Chib]

18 minutes ago, GravyFace said:

To be fair, I read several reviews from major sites/magazines that basically agree with the original post. The NY Daily News, Variety, Slate, they all called Jon a terrible leader/commander after episode 9. It's not just Sansa stans on tumblr.

 

The way D&D wrote him does make him stupid. But it does not make Sansa better.

[illinifan]

1 hour ago, Future Null Infinity said:

D&D made a lot of confusion by not telling in the episode that KitN is not the same thing as Lord of Winterfell, it pushed the people to check for the answer from the website, same thing happened with the father of Jon, they didn't put it in the scene, and put the confirmation in their website, so what is the purpose of the show if we need an external confirmation for everything?

People really should not need to be told that Rhaegar is Jon's daddy.  That has been telegraphed unless you think that Lyanna was sleeping with everybody.

[Wilnova]

2 hours ago, GravyFace said:

To be fair, I read several reviews from major sites/magazines that basically agree with the original post. The NY Daily News, Variety, Slate, they all called Jon a terrible leader/commander after episode 9. It's not just Sansa stans on tumblr.

So they are saying that Sansa was holding back Vale info because Jon was a terrible commander?

This is Sepinwall's take on the matter:

Quote

And it was incredibly frustrating to see our hero go full Stupid Jon Snow even after Sansa had warned him that Ramsay would try something exactly like what he did to Rickon.  Had Jon and his allies managed to actually outmaneuver the greater Bolton army, rather than simply hanging on long enough for the knights of the Vale to arrive and even the odds, my apathy for all things Ramsay might have been overwhelmed by my appreciation for what Jon the tactician accomplished. Instead, Jon has almost nothing to do with his own victory, other than proving handy with a shield (and his fists) in the final showdown with his fellow bastard. And Sansa's refusal to tell Jon in advance that Littlefinger's arrival was even a possibility makes no sense. Yes, she looks particularly satisfied sitting next to Lord Baelish as his forces destroy what's left of Ramsay's army, knowing that she was ultimately responsible for arranging her tormentor's defeat, but she's not selfish enough at this stage of things that she would risk the lives of her brother and his forces — who likely would have planned things very differently had they known (or even just hoped) that the fight wasn't going to be so lopsided — just so she could have that feeling.
 

http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-did-battle-of-the-bastards-on-game-of-thrones-live-up-to-the-hype

So yes, he criticized Jon for making a stupid decision which allows the Vale to get the victory. But he is also criticizing Sansa for endangering her brother and other Northerners so that she could sit there smugly and savor the victory. Sepinwall is saying that if Sansa had told Jon about the Vale, then the results would have been different.

The OP's posted review from Laura Hudson is actually praising Sansa for being so intelligent that she kept back Vale info for using Jon as bait because dumb Jon is a terrible commander. Not so. Jon's strategic planning was good. His stupidity was being emotionally manipulated into trying to save his little brother.

That review is typical Sansa stan comments. Jon should apologize and grovel before Sansa, but why should Sansa apologize for lying about something so important - " Sansa apologizes anyway, because apparently she has to do everything around here, get no credit for it, and still say she’s sorry for hurting Jon’s fee-fees." - This is the way tumblr Sansa Stans write things including the stupid baby talk.Her lying has led to a large loss of life, but apparently she should not apologize and instead be praised. This shit is clearly written by a Sansa stan. There is no way any credible reviewer would write this nonsense.

3 hours ago, Chib said:

And I am also fed up with the kind of "birthright" argument. This is the time of war. There is almost no law in the time of war. If there has been anything we call the rule of war, then it's the rule of who comes first who claims it first. 

 

Actually Bran is the Lord of Winterfell. Jon and Sansa know he is alive and he is currently at the wall. Sansa is not even Lady of Winterfell. Winterfell belongs to Bran. For all their SJW preaching, Sansa stans are incredibly ableist against characters like Bran and Tyrion. They think Bran cannot be Lord of Winterfell because he cannot have children. What nonsense.

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, Einheri said:

If Sansa had come up with a plan which involved using the Stark army as bait for Ramsay, and then have Knights of the Vale sweep in, why didn't she just tell Jon about it? I mean, it's a good plan, so I can't see why he wouldn't have agreed to go through with it.

 

Well, if I were a military commander, I don't think I would be too keen on a plan that went: "you and your men go in and fight and die for hours, and then when 90 percent of you are dead, me and my men will ride in and score a smashing victory."

16 hours ago, Einheri said:

Furthermore, this knowledge would probably have convinced him to delay his advance on Winterfell, something Sansa was clearly trying to accomplish in her conversation with him in the command tent, and he could have sent some riders out to locate the Valemen in order to inform them of Sansa's plan. Letting his own men in on the plan would also have boosted morale. Heck, if the whole thing had been executed properly we might have avoided a situation where the Stark forces were almost completely decimated before help arrived, and even though Jon would probably have fallen for Ramsay's trap anyway (which Sansa warned him about, i.e. more evidence against the analysis in the article), hundred of lives might still have been saved.

 

Disagree. If the Vale men hadn't arrived when they did, they would have met either a still-organized and still-mounted Bolton army that could pivot to engage the new army, or a convoluted mess on the battlefield in which horse would be nearly useless since no one can tell friend from foe. The only way it could have worked for certain is if Jon's army was nearly wiped out and the Vale men were basically closing in for the kill.

 

16 hours ago, Einheri said:

Finally, if Jon is such a shitty commander that she thought he would somehow screw up everything if she shared the info with him, then why did she even bother asking him shaming him into leading their army in the first place?

 

Jon was the only choice. Who else could rally even a single northman or get wildlings to risk their lives for Winterfell? Davos? Tormund?

 

 

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

10 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, if I were a military commander, I don't think I would be too keen on a plan that went: "you and your men go in and fight and die for hours, and then when 90 percent of you are dead, me and my men will ride in and score a smashing victory."

Disagree. If the Vale men hadn't arrived when they did, they would have met either a still-organized and still-mounted Bolton army that could pivot to engage the new army, or a convoluted mess on the battlefield in which horse would be nearly useless since no one can tell friend from foe. The only way it could have worked for certain is if Jon's army was nearly wiped out and the Vale men were basically closing in for the kill.

Jon was the only choice. Who else could rally even a single northman or get wildlings to risk their lives for Winterfell? Davos? Tormund?

Wrong. Had Sansa told him, Jon might have known that the Vale would come and told Davos to set up some retreat when Ramsay's army came near.

the only reason they made Sansa keeping secret is just to make some shocking effect to the audience and to empower Sansa whose characterization has been thrown out of the window once they messed up her story arc by throwing her to Boltons. 

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, Frejac said:

snip

 

I'm not convinced that she is thinking this way either, it was just an interesting idea that I had not considered before. I'm not even convinced that she knew the Vale army was even in the area. For that matter, it's hard to believe Ramsey did not know. He had plenty of scouts capable of spotting an army that is still days away, but apparently he did not even know they left Moat C.

I would not say he is a terrible commander either, but he is still very young and very inexperienced. I wonder if someone like Tywin Lannister or Stannis Baratheon would allow themselves to be manipulated that way.

No Sansa cannot outguess Ramsey, but she does know that Rams isn't the type to go straight-up mano y mano. He'll pull some trick to throw Jon off balance. It's what he does. The question is, does she know enough about Jon's character to think he can avoid the trap? That's what their conversation was about.

15 hours ago, Frejac said:

Sidenote Rant. People are giving Ramsay waaay too much credit for the effectiveness of his traps.  The first one, with Rickon, is fine.  He lures Jon out, which lures Jon's army out of their position and forces them to engage in a way they wanted to avoid.  Ramsay gets points for this.  He does not get points for the shield wall.  Without the mountain of bodies creating half of his encirclement, he did not have enough men left for that shield wall to work, and there is no way in hell anyone will ever get me to believe that Ramsay (or anyone else for that matter) could possibly have planned that mountain.  Battle is much too chaotic for anyone to do that on purpose, let alone plan for it to act as half of your encirclement of your opponent's army.  It was a thing that happened on the battlefield that Ramsay used the forces he'd kept in reserve to take advantage of, but there is no way in hell that it was his plan from the beginning.  I've seen way too many people than I can understand giving him credit for having planned that whole thing out.  /Sidenote Rant Off.

 

I'm thinking that there is no way bodies would pile that high during the normal course of battle. I suppose there would be an advantage to being higher up than your enemy, but as we saw with Jon, it's too unstable to make an effective high-ground. The bodies would more likely pile waist-high and then spread out, not up.

Yes, the end of the post was a little harsh, but that's the kind of thing that gets your post shared.

 

[John Suburbs]

11 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Besides all of the reasons stated already, Sansa thinking on this level would mean that d$d would of had to as well. Instead of their normal approach of writing a character's motivations as Must get from plot y to plot x, they would have had to actually think through what a character would be thinking and motivated by, and I just don't see that as very plausible.

LOL, very true. I always find myself thinking of how the characters should be thinking, while D&D, apparently, do not; ie Arya's entire behavior this season.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

The OP's posted review from Laura Hudson is actually praising Sansa for being so intelligent that she kept back Vale info for using Jon as bait because dumb Jon is a terrible commander. Not so. Jon's strategic planning was good. His stupidity was being emotionally manipulated into trying to save his little brother.

I'm still not convinced that Sansa did that intentionally or that she even knew the Vale army was in the area. If I had to guess, I would say that was LF's call and Sansa couldn't do anything about it either way. His orders from the crown, after all, were: Let Stannis and Bolton bash each other to bits, then swoop in and depose the now-weakened victor. That's pretty much what he did, except then he didn't go in and slaughter the remnants of Jon's army. And then, lo and behold, he's surprised and annoyed that they elect Jon as KotN (and really, where were these former Ramsey loyalist lords while their men were being cut down on the battlefield?), which means he cannot become Warden of the North as directed by the crown, which forces him to declare himself in open opposition to the crown before he even had to. And I doubt highly that he is aware of all that has happened in King's Landing.

And yes, the terrible commander part is unfair. I think it would be more accurate to say that Sansa knew Jon did not have the savvy to resist Ramsey's psycho games, so if she told him about the Vale ahead of time he might have lost that as well. In this way, she keeps a piece off the board from Jon's perspective, so Ramsey cannot use it, even unwittingly, to achieve victory.

All I'm saying is that if, and it is still a big if, Sansa is thinking on this level, she is a much better player than I gave her credit for.

[House_Tony_Stark]

I think that just shows how much people do not know about battles. Jon was brilliant in defense of the Wall against a much larger force and he was the reason they won.

Jon was the only reason any people survived Hardhome.

The whole BotB was on Sansa not Jon. He rallied all the forces that he thought he could while facing a time limit in that the longer his brother was being held captive the more likely he would to be killed or worse.

Sansa on the other hand KNEW that the Vale was willing to help them but choose not to tell the commander of the army this. Had he known he would have choose to draw the soldiers out of Winterfell and have the Knights of the Vale flank them from the rear. Hundreds of people would have survived that battle.

[House_Tony_Stark]

9 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm still not convinced that Sansa did that intentionally or that she even knew the Vale army was in the area. If I had to guess, I would say that was LF's call and Sansa couldn't do anything about it either way. His orders from the crown, after all, were: Let Stannis and Bolton bash each other to bits, then swoop in and depose the now-weakened victor. That's pretty much what he did, except then he didn't go in and slaughter the remnants of Jon's army. And then, lo and behold, he's surprised and annoyed that they elect Jon as KotN (and really, where were these former Ramsey loyalist lords while their men were being cut down on the battlefield?), which means he cannot become Warden of the North as directed by the crown, which forces him to declare himself in open opposition to the crown before he even had to. And I doubt highly that he is aware of all that has happened in King's Landing.

And yes, the terrible commander part is unfair. I think it would be more accurate to say that Sansa knew Jon did not have the savvy to resist Ramsey's psycho games, so if she told him about the Vale ahead of time he might have lost that as well. In this way, she keeps a piece off the board from Jon's perspective, so Ramsey cannot use it, even unwittingly, to achieve victory.

All I'm saying is that if, and it is still a big if, Sansa is thinking on this level, she is a much better player than I gave her credit for.

Sansa knew and she was FOOLISH for turning him down the first time without even asking Jon what he thought.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Wrong. Had Sansa told him, Jon might have known that the Vale would come and told Davos to set up some retreat when Ramsay's army came near.

the only reason they made Sansa keeping secret is just to make some shocking effect to the audience and to empower Sansa whose characterization has been thrown out of the window once they messed up her story arc by throwing her to Boltons. 

Well, how would it have played out then? Jon and his army holed up behind some hastily erected barrier, with Ramey outside. Then along comes the Vale and instead of fighting a weakened army with scattered lines and broken chains of command, they face an organized army with horse and lance of its own. Maybe the Vale would still win, but maybe not. In this way, Sansa is certain of victory no matter what Jon does because she has a piece on the board that neither Jon nor Ramsey are aware of.

But again, are we even certain that the battle played out the way it did because Sansa wanted it this way? Littlefinger commands the knights of the Vale, so it should have been his decision when and how to enter the field, no?

[Desert Fox]

I really think Davos has to take some blame here too. Jon never ordered a charge, Davos did. I get there is a huge risk letting your battle commander get killed, but that was the choice Jon made. This doesn't absolve Jon, since he should have ridden back to his men after Rickon. But still, Davos pretty much lost the battle with the charge. Also Davos running in with his archers was stupid since it allowed the Bolton men to surround Jon completely. Him and Jon got lucky as shit.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, how would it have played out then? Jon and his army holed up behind some hastily erected barrier, with Ramey outside. Then along comes the Vale and instead of fighting a weakened army with scattered lines and broken chains of command, they face an organized army with horse and lance of its own. Maybe the Vale would still win, but maybe not. In this way, Sansa is certain of victory no matter what Jon does because she has a piece on the board that neither Jon nor Ramsey are aware of.

But again, are we even certain that the battle played out the way it did because Sansa wanted it this way? Littlefinger commands the knights of the Vale, so it should have been his decision when and how to enter the field, no?

Vale has double the amount of Ramsay's force, if they couldn't win they're shitty Knights which they're definitely not. The best way is that Jon and the Wildings know beforehand they will have an aiding army so they would try to save time as much as possible.

Sansa admitted she doesn't have a clue about battlefield. I highly doubt that she knew when to call the battle end. Mostly the battle was that way because the Vale army was running on their way with top speed (which it does look like in the video) and the main reason why... Because she called them a bit late. 

[John Suburbs]

26 minutes ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

I think that just shows how much people do not know about battles. Jon was brilliant in defense of the Wall against a much larger force and he was the reason they won.

Jon was the only reason any people survived Hardhome.

The whole BotB was on Sansa not Jon. He rallied all the forces that he thought he could while facing a time limit in that the longer his brother was being held captive the more likely he would to be killed or worse.

Sansa on the other hand KNEW that the Vale was willing to help them but choose not to tell the commander of the army this. Had he known he would have choose to draw the soldiers out of Winterfell and have the Knights of the Vale flank them from the rear. Hundreds of people would have survived that battle.

Well, forgetting for the moment that Ramsey should have known that the Vale army was that close to the field, I think the point that others have made on this thread is valid here: Sansa is no military strategist, so she would have no idea how the Vale would be used in the battle. All she knows is that she doesn't trust Jon to withstand Ramsey's psycho games.

Also note that Jon would be in no position to have the KotV do anything. If they had linked up ahead of time and devised a plan, it would be LF and Royce calling the shots, not Jon.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, forgetting for the moment that Ramsey should have known that the Vale army was that close to the field, I think the point that others have made on this thread is valid here: Sansa is no military strategist, so she would have no idea how the Vale would be used in the battle. All she knows is that she doesn't trust Jon to withstand Ramsey's psycho games.

Also note that Jon would be in no position to have the KotV do anything. If they had linked up ahead of time and devised a plan, it would be LF and Royce calling the shots, not Jon.

With a huge number of men, double the size of Ramsay, I am sure LF and Royce wouldn't need Jon's input much. 

[John Suburbs]

4 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Vale has double the amount of Ramsay's force, if they couldn't win they're shitty Knights which they're definitely not. The best way is that Jon and the Wildings know beforehand they will have an aiding army so they would try to save time as much as possible.

Sansa admitted she doesn't have a clue about battlefield. I highly doubt that she knew when to call the battle end. Mostly the battle was that way because the Vale army was running on their way with top speed (which it does look like in the video) and the main reason why... Because she called them a bit late. 

I'm not sure what the numbers are, or whether we saw all of the Vale army, but comparing the Bolton army at the beginning of the battle (and the one that slaughtered Stannis last season), including the horse that took the field in each case, with the KotV that appeared on screen, I would say it looked pretty even.

But still, the calculus that Sansa is using here is not which army is bigger and who is likely to win the battle, but how can she herself remove Ramsey and retake Winterfell. As she said, "no one can protect me. no one can protect anyone." So right there she is putting herself at No. 1, and everyone else, even Jon, is secondary. So in that light, what is the best way to beat Ramsey when you don't know a thing about fighting and battles? Have a piece on the board that he doesn't know about. Telling Jon about that piece would diminish its value because it would then be part of his plan and he will likely fall prey to whatever psych warfare tactic that Ramsey is bound to employ.

In this way, she is virtually guaranteed to come out the winner, even if Jon does not.