Jon, Sansa and the Battle Prep

[King Jon Snow Stark]

8 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Actually if Ramsay heard that 10.000 knights have arrived from Vale, he might have let Rickon live a bit longer for some negotiation. 

Yes maybe. My point is I would be questioning if they really brought back Jon if he stood on the hill and say let Rickon get at arrowed I have a castle to win back. Jon was always going to rush in. Maybe they would have delayed their march to Windfell if they knew the Vale was coming. But Jon would rushed in to save Rickon I don't see that changing. 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

17 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Ramsey would of not gotten what he wanted which is Jon charging to save his brother.

He may as well just kill him or still try to goad Jon and send cavalry to run him down and that would of worked into Jon's battle plan.

Jon is still part of House Stark. Why wouldn't he be there? Sansa is technically the head of their house. She could have pick a commander. She would have had leverage to do so with the vale at her side. Jon didn't have to be in command. Besides Davos lead the army anyway while Jon was chopping heads and getting buried. 

[TheKitttenGuard]

49 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Rickon was a goner no matter what Jon did. Ramsey knew what he was doing. He knew how good his aim was. Sansa knew he would never let Rickon live. Jon couldn't have done anything.

What I want to know is why Smalljon Umber betrayed the Starks?

Jon actually not doing anythinf would of been better for Rickon though is most likely extremely slim.

It really looks the seven kingdoms have an incredible and irrational  hatred of the Wildlings considering Ryandall Tarly and YohnRoyce reactions.

[Bear Claw]

48 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

 

Sansa's decision to withhold info had no effect on the outcome of the battle. Hopefully her reason for her decision will be explained in S7.

 

I really doubt we will ever get a reason. There was such an under reaction/explanation  from Jon and Sansa  in the last episode that it seems like it was meant to be unimportant. If it was suppose to be a big deal that could have saved lives, it seems like it would have come up in the King in the North scene too. Everyone seemed very satisfied with how the battle played out except us viewers. 

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 minute ago, King Jon Stark Targaryen said:

Jon is still part of House Stark. Why would he be there? He wouldn't in command. Davos lead the army anyway while Jon was chopping heads and getting buried. 

Davos is less qualified then Jon, and Tormund more so. I

do not think the Wildlings would of joined if Jon was not the leader, and Davos was a loyal follower of the man who burned Mance Ryder.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

15 minutes ago, Bear Claw said:

I really doubt we will ever get a reason. There was such an under reaction/explanation  from Jon and Sansa  in the last episode that it seems like it was meant to be unimportant. If it was suppose to be a big deal that could have saved lives, it seems like it would have come up in the King in the North scene too. Everyone seemed very satisfied with how the battle played out except us viewers. 

 

 

[Lady Ren]

1 hour ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

In fact, it's D&D who make Sansa look worse. As a female, I should have feel more towards female characters but this kind of "forceful feminist writing" makes me mad. How come it's good writing about female when She whines and whines like: "I don't know anything about battle, I just have this feeling..." Stop, tell me exactly what you think it will happen!! 

thebolded: lol I think that is what Jon's reaction is in a nutshell. I defended Sansa a lot throughout the season. Then 4x10 happened - and she didn't even defend herself. Ultimately she did feel like she was wrong (not 100% right anyway) in not telling him, and she took responsibility. She didn't list a bunch of scenarios. She didn't even have to. It helps if you view her actions the same way Jon does - I forgive you, but I still don't get you.

It's interesting that you think Sansa is "forceful feminist writing". I get that vibe from Dany circa season 4 onwards. From that point on her tumblr-y moments (which pretty much make up all her screen time) made me smile and cringe in equal measure. I've often thought tha tD&D's execution is very "lifetime original movie" when it comes so-called 'female power' scenes. And, they can't help themselves, having grown up on Wonderwoman ideals of "feminine strength". But I can't help but wonder if sometimes it is just the imagery and my own internalized misogyny that's talking and not D&D.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

37 minutes ago, Lady Ren said:

thebolded: lol I think that is what Jon's reaction is in a nutshell. I defended Sansa a lot throughout the season. Then 4x10 happened - and she didn't even defend herself. Ultimately she did him wrong, and she took responsibility. She didn't list a bunch of scenarios. She didn't even have to. It helps if you view her actions the same way Jon does - I forgive you, but I still don't get you.

It's interesting that you think Sansa is "forceful feminist writing". I get that vibe from Dany circa season 4 onwards. From that point on her tumblr-y moments (which pretty much make up all her screen time) made me smile and cringe in equal measure. D&D's execution is very "lifetime original movie" when it comes 'female power' scenes. They can't help themselves. They grew up on Wonderwoman ideals of "feminine strength". I'll forgive them. 

I actually love cowardly Sansa who bends the knee every chance she gets, and is just a stupid little girl. I thought D&D were trying to make her more likeable, but I think I was wrong. They wouldn't be teasing a potential conflict with Jon if they wanted the audience to like her. Let's hope she continues to annoy the crap out of Jon. I want them to stay friends for those moments alone. 

And this is exactly why I find it so annoying. D&D seem to think that stereotype female is that "we have strong sense but we have no idea about the precision and details!" Wut???? This is what happened to Sansa. She felt this and that because she has been through those political games... But she doesn't give the exact and coherent example of how to avoid and how to get away from it. Just "I have this feeling but I can't tell" wut?? Please, people have died, please be straight. This is not the time to play politics! Let use politics in other times when it's more useful. 

The issue with forceful feminist writing is that they're potraying females either as forceful and bossy demand in some whiny style like "I should have some input in this". Like... Ew, you know, you're right there, just speak loudly and clearly even if they don't ask you, why stay back and whine afterwards. Dany is the typical bossy girl who's spoiled and so entitled. But given that people around her keep calling her by all those magical titles, it's nor such a surprise that she buys her own hype. Change Dany into a man and I expect the same kind of attitude. 

The thing is, Sansa this season has been potrayed so illogical because they messed up her story arc entirely. Sansa isn't the kind who is bossy and forceful and aggressive (like she's behaving in this season towards Jon, Davos and even LF). They forced her into Ramsay's arms and changed her character drastically. She lies when there's no need to lie. She's resentful, aggressive and insecured and inconsistent. The reason for her lies and ambiguous smirks in this season might be that the show writers are leading her towards some kind of power hunger character who could ditch anything just for her purpose. Sansa in the book isn't like that, or she is still not at that level. Or It might be that they're forcing the role of vengeful Lady Stone Heart on Sansa.  

[Lost Time]

Sansa was a complete fool. She should have told Jon and co. about the Vale forces being in the North back in episode 5. She, Jon, and Davos could have then negotiated with Royce and the real Vale military leaders and completely sidestep LF if they wanted to. If Sansa was so astute at 'the game', she could have used her close relations with the Vale (her cousin, the Royces, and the fact that the Vale does like the Starks and distrust LF) to her complete advantage to take hold of that army and neutralize whatever schemes she feared that LF might have been up to. Instead, she lets pride and feelings get in her way. The fact that she still refused to tell Jon and his battle commanders about this giant force just south of them in episode 9 was merely adding insult to injury.

No need to make excuses for her. She clearly screwed up and admitted it. People trying to paint her as some 11th dimensional chess master of battle strategy just comes off as reaching that would make Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four jealous.

[Winter's Cold]

2 hours ago, King Jon Stark Targaryen said:

Sansa is technically the head of their house.

The Head of House Stark was technically Rickon not Sansa. That's why Jon abandoning him to die in front of his entire army would probably be one of the worst things he could do.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

You are right. Rickon was the only known living trueborn Stark male. 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

28 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

The Head of House Stark was technically Rickon not Sansa. That's why Jon abandoning him to die in front of his entire army would probably be one of the worst things he could do.

You are right he was the head

[House_Tony_Stark]

6 hours ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

No, she simply couldn't tell exactly what Ramsay would do. All she said just implied that Ramsay is a psychopath which doesn't tell much what exactly they should do to win the battle except having more number as much as possible. This is the same as a girlfriend gets mad at her boyfriend for not giving her a choice for dinner, then "where do you want to eat, darling?" The reply "I don't know, just not somewhere I dislike" ??? 

she wanted to wait for larger army but she refused to give Jon the information that there would be a large army come. This is the utterly ridiculous point. As a woman I would want to slap any woman who give any kind of "advice" like this in battle field. You tell me to wait you must give me a reason to wait. This is just utterly stupid and doesn't make sense in anyway at all. Or simply she could have said, "I have sent mail to Vale but I can't tell if they will come. Don't hope too much, I am sorry. Etc" 

withholding such important information in such life and death situation doesn't make any sense at all, even if she doesn't trust Jon, she must have known that he is on the same boat as her, If he died, she died. 

In episode 9, Sansa simply looks bitchy and bossy and whiny to me. There is no way I would not get angry if my sister acted that way. If I were Jon, I would have told her: "Thank you for saving my life. This fxxxxx is yours. I am going south after all of this. You should handle all by yourself. Bye!"

Thank goodness a lady who is not blinded by girl power. If Jon were the one who made those decisions I would say he is foolish, as would everyone else.  

[House_Tony_Stark]

4 hours ago, ThePukwudgie said:

You can't say I'm wrong when you literally can't even defend your position. Don't talk to me about facts when you know you're just speculating.

Davos would have done the exact same thing. He wanted to protect Jon. If Davos was more interested in preserving the army and the original plan they came up with, he wouldn't have directed nearly 2000 soldiers to charge in the first place. Ironically, Davos made the same mistake Jon did.

Sansa told Jon all the information he needed to know about Ramsey. She told him what type of person he is. She even told him that Ramsey wouldn't let Rickon go alive. Put these two things together and Jon could have easily predicted what Ramsey was going to do, but you know what? Jon would have done the exact same thing even knowing what was coming. Charge foolishly to try and save his brother(cousin).

Bro, did you even watch it? Jon did something any man or big brother would have done. If I had even a small chance to save my son regardless if it meant losing mine I would not even hesitate. The wind could have blown and Ramsey could have missed with his arrows at that distance, he took a big risk there. His hope is that he would kill Jon before the battle even started.

Davos charged in because he HAD TO. Lose Jon and the battle was over..and to be honest they still were doing fine until Ramsey started shooting arrows at his own men which no one could have predicted even he would do.

There are only two types of people that would watch their brother die without doing anything. Someone to weak to move like Sansa or someone who is heartless. There is a reason people do want to follow either of those types and why Jon now has the power and not Sansa.

[House_Tony_Stark]

3 hours ago, Lady Ren said:

thebolded: lol I think that is what Jon's reaction is in a nutshell. I defended Sansa a lot throughout the season. Then 4x10 happened - and she didn't even defend herself. Ultimately she did feel like she was wrong (not 100% right anyway) in not telling him, and she took responsibility. She didn't list a bunch of scenarios. She didn't even have to. It helps if you view her actions the same way Jon does - I forgive you, but I still don't get you.

It's interesting that you think Sansa is "forceful feminist writing". I get that vibe from Dany circa season 4 onwards. From that point on her tumblr-y moments (which pretty much make up all her screen time) made me smile and cringe in equal measure. I've often thought tha tD&D's execution is very "lifetime original movie" when it comes so-called 'female power' scenes. And, they can't help themselves, having grown up on Wonderwoman ideals of "feminine strength". But I can't help but wonder if sometimes it is just the imagery and my own internalized misogyny that's talking and not D&D.

Feminist writing or not..Danny makes sense. She is a strong woman who actually uses the talents that she has as a woman. Battles, physical labor, ruthlessness, leading by example, those are all things that men are simply usually going to be biologically better at on average. But being a symbol and getting people to fight for you is something women are much better at.

Example, Danny could step right in front of 300 men and say fight I will marry the last man standing and I promise you it would turn bloody quick. Sansa could do the same thing and people would laugh at her.

[Lady Ren]

4 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

Feminist writing or not..Danny makes sense. She is a strong woman who actually uses the talents that she has as a woman. Battles, physical labor, ruthlessness, leading by example, those are all things that men are simply usually going to be biologically better at on average. But being a symbol and getting people to fight for you is something women are much better at.

Example, Danny could step right in front of 300 men and say fight I will marry the last man standing and I promise you it would turn bloody quick. Sansa could do the same thing and people would laugh at her.

Yes, but see that's where our opinions differ. I don't agree at all. Dany's rewarded by her world and by the audience for being a certain way.  She stands removed - "do not presume to touch me" (tied for best line with Bron's "I'll impregnate the bitch"). She is admired for being, a symbol for freedom, beauty, fire, the widow of a great Khal, and the "mother of dragons". 

She's become a caricature for so-called "female strength". Which is odd. People don't fight for her because "girl power". They fight for her because she uses her dragons to inspire fear and awe.  

I watched season 1 almost solely for Dany, but now I can go half a season having barely noticed her absence. Hopefully all her "let me make you quake in your boots" nonsense has a point in the long run. Because what we see currently is the opposite of empowering. It works against her as a person.

thebolded: Jon Snow

[Bear Claw]

1 hour ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

 

Example, Danny could step right in front of 300 men and say fight I will marry the last man standing and I promise you it would turn bloody quick. Sansa could do the same thing and people would laugh at her.

Sansa had thousands of men fighting for her (the Vale) and she didn't promise or deliver them a thing. 

[Bear Claw]

You know what Sansa's strength is? She has connections. She is related to the Vale, North, and the Riverlands.

[Lady Ren]

7 hours ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

And this is exactly why I find it so annoying. D&D seem to think that stereotype female is that "we have strong sense but we have no idea about the precision and details!"

The thing is, Sansa this season has been potrayed so illogical because they messed up her story arc entirely. Sansa isn't the kind who is bossy and forceful and aggressive (like she's behaving in this season towards Jon, Davos and even LF). They forced her into Ramsay's arms and changed her character drastically. She lies when there's no need to lie. She's resentful, aggressive and insecured and inconsistent. The reason for her lies and ambiguous smirks in this season might be that the show writers are leading her towards some kind of power hunger character who could ditch anything just for her purpose. Sansa in the book isn't like that, or she is still not at that level. Or It might be that they're forcing the role of vengeful Lady Stone Heart on Sansa.  

See I don't have a problem with Sansa's portrayal though. Sansa wasn't exactly flooding with self-awareness in early seasons. Season 6 Sansa is not illogical. She is completely in line with who she was (insecure and conflicted) and what she's been though (major trauma and constant fear).

Sansa wasn't exactly calm and placid as a child. At first her schooling required her to constrain herself, and then situations required her to act with restraint. She's finally free of repression for the first time in her life. Let her whine to her heart's content. Who cares. Jon doesn't seem to. Well it looks like it hurts his ears a bit, but other than that he's cool with it. (Men whine too fyi. Women don't have that quality trademarked.)

I get that she's just not very admirable to some. She didn't have an answer for Jon the one time he "asked" for her opinion. Her smirks are arrogant. And her strut doesn't help.  But that's fine. Because it is not D&D's job to think about how they're portraying females every time they sit down to write her. They're not trying to make statements about femininity or women or teenage girls or whatever. Also, I think they've realized that they just can't make Sansa likeable. So now they're just going to shove her at the audience.

---

I'm just going to put this out there for everyone - 

If there's something I say thats particularly eye-brow raising (sometimes I'm being sarcastic and just assume people are going to know), please feel free to ask me for an explanation. 

[ThePukwudgie]

3 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

Bro, did you even watch it? Jon did something any man or big brother would have done. If I had even a small chance to save my son regardless if it meant losing mine I would not even hesitate. The wind could have blown and Ramsey could have missed with his arrows at that distance, he took a big risk there. His hope is that he would kill Jon before the battle even started.

Davos charged in because he HAD TO. Lose Jon and the battle was over..and to be honest they still were doing fine until Ramsey started shooting arrows at his own men which no one could have predicted even he would do.

There are only two types of people that would watch their brother die without doing anything. Someone to weak to move like Sansa or someone who is heartless. There is a reason people do want to follow either of those types and why Jon now has the power and not Sansa.

Everything you just said did not contradict anything I said.

6 hours ago, Lost Time said:

Sansa was a complete fool. She should have told Jon and co. about the Vale forces being in the North back in episode 5. She, Jon, and Davos could have then negotiated with Royce and the real Vale military leaders and completely sidestep LF if they wanted to. If Sansa was so astute at 'the game', she could have used her close relations with the Vale (her cousin, the Royces, and the fact that the Vale does like the Starks and distrust LF) to her complete advantage to take hold of that army and neutralize whatever schemes she feared that LF might have been up to. Instead, she lets pride and feelings get in her way. The fact that she still refused to tell Jon and his battle commanders about this giant force just south of them in episode 9 was merely adding insult to injury.

No need to make excuses for her. She clearly screwed up and admitted it. People trying to paint her as some 11th dimensional chess master of battle strategy just comes off as reaching that would make Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four jealous.

Again with this nonsense about Sansa's info changing Jon's planning. First of all, there was nothing wrong with Jon's original plan. Second of all, their backs were against the wall. They were pressed for time. They had to act as quickly as possible. Who the hell has time to negotiate anything with the Vale when they were days, if not hours away from starvation. It started snowing right after the battle, so they had that to fear as well.

No one is trying to make her out to be a genius, but in the end she was right, and she won the day. Stop reaching to make her look worse.

1 hour ago, Lady Ren said:

See I don't have a problem with Sansa's portrayal though. Sansa wasn't exactly flooding with self-awareness in early seasons. Season 6 Sansa is not illogical. She is completely in line with who she was (insecure and conflicted) and what she's been though (major trauma and constant fear).

Sansa wasn't exactly calm and placid as a child. At first her schooling required her to constrain herself, and then situations required her to act with restraint. She's finally free of repression for the first time in her life. Let her whine to her heart's content. Who cares. Jon doesn't seem to. Well it looks like it hurts his ears a bit, but other than that he's cool with it. (Men whine too fyi. Women don't have that quality trademarked.)

I get that she's just not very admirable to some. She didn't have an answer for Jon the one time he "asked" for her opinion. Her smirks are arrogant. And her strut doesn't help.  But that's fine. Because it is not D&D's job to think about how they're portraying females every time they sit down to write her. They're not trying to make statements about femininity or women or teenage girls or whatever. Also, I think they've realized that they just can't make Sansa likeable. So now they're just going to shove her at the audience.

Don't speak for others. Many people like Sansa. She's the most relatable Stark. Everyone else is special in some form or another.