NBA Offseason: Oklahoma! Where the MVP Free Agents Come Falling From the Sky

[Jaime L]

3 minutes ago, Fez said:

Davis has the potential to become the best player in the league, and last season didn't change that, but he's not close to there yet. Putting him over Durant, or even in the top 10, doesn't seem warranted based on what he's actually done yet.

I wouldn't put Kawhi there either. Kawhi's great, but his numbers are lower than Durant's in every standard statistical category (points, FG%, FT%, rebounds, assists, blocks) except for steals. And the extra stuff Kawhi can do on defense don't make for it.

IMO the players you can justify putting above Durant would be LeBron, Curry, and Westbrook; depending on the night.

I would also put Durant over Davis as the latter is still more potential and former is actualized.

I think if you ask GMs who they'd build a team around between Durant and Westbrook, just about all would give the slight edge to Durant. Kawhi's really close IMO - Kawhi's got the perfect skillset to fit on any team. Just not sure he'll ever be a guy to carry a team when the chips are down in the way we just saw Lebron do. 

Durant's definite top 3 for me. And maybe ahead of Curry when you count his defensive potential. 

[Slurktan]

8 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

I would also put Durant over Davis as the latter is still more potential and former is actualized.

I think if you ask GMs who they'd build a team around between Durant and Westbrook, just about all would give the slight edge to Durant. Kawhi's really close IMO - Kawhi's got the perfect skillset to fit on any team. Just not sure he'll ever be a guy to carry a team when the chips are down in the way we just saw Lebron do. 

Do you think Durant can do that? I'm not sure.  Westbrook for example I'm much more comfortable saying could do that.

[Jaime L]

4 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Do you think Durant can do that? I'm not sure.  Westbrook for example I'm much more comfortable saying could do that.

I think the biggest edge Westbrook has over Durant is his "rip your heart out" mentality. He seems far more willing to deploy his considerable athletic gifts at all times than Durant is. But he also struggles to rein it in. 

The moment is lost to time now but there was a moment in Game 4 of the Thunder-Spurs series where the Thunder were down 2-1 and coming apart at the seams and it was Durant who put the team on his back and wouldn't let them lose. He's had moments like that, but granted he still has a way to go to be like what Lebron has become. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

Looking over that 50,40,90 club history really leaves me in awe of just how extraordinary Steve Nash's career really was. Especially before he lost a step and the injuries those last few years. Shame him and Malone never got the rings.

In other news Silver announced the league is changing the rules on the hack-a-shaq strategy, not eliminating it, but making it much more difficult to employ as an advantage for teams trying to handle poor FT shooting rim protectors like Drummond, DeAndre Jordan, etc 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

In other news Silver announced the league is changing the rules on the hack-a-shaq strategy, not eliminating it, but making it much more difficult to employ as an advantage for teams trying to handle poor FT shooting rim protectors like Drummond, DeAndre Jordan, etc 

 Seems to me this is such an easy fix. If you foul a guy without the ball, and that team is in the bonus, the team that was fouled gets to choose their shooter from whoever is on the floor. Just put an end to this shit.

[briantw]

2 hours ago, Fez said:

I wouldn't put Kawhi there either. Kawhi's great, but his numbers are lower than Durant's in every standard statistical category (points, FG%, FT%, rebounds, assists, blocks) except for steals. And the extra stuff Kawhi can do on defense don't make for it.

IMO the players you can justify putting above Durant would be LeBron, Curry, and Westbrook; depending on the night.

I think you can at least make an argument for Leonard.  Durant is a better offensive player, but Kawhi is a much, much better defender.  They're pretty even in most of their advanced stats as well.  I'd also say that Durant's raw stats are better because he uses over 5% more of his team's possessions than Leonard does.  They're similarly efficient.  I'd give the edge to Durant prior to the Golden State move (his stats might suffer next year and impact his standing), but it's really close.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

50 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Seems to me this is such an easy fix. If you foul a guy without the ball, and that team is in the bonus, the team that was fouled gets to choose their shooter from whoever is on the floor. Just put an end to this shit.

Actually the easiest way is to follow the rules and call it flagrant 1.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Andriy Czarchenko said:

Actually the easiest way is to follow the rules and call it flagrant 1.

? Not sure how a deliberate, off-the-ball foul would automatically be considered a flagrant. Unless it is flagrant (A foul that involves excessive or violent contact that could potentially injure).  

[James Arryn]

23 minutes ago, briantw said:

I think you can at least make an argument for Leonard.  Durant is a better offensive player, but Kawhi is a much, much better defender.  They're pretty even in most of their advanced stats as well.  I'd also say that Durant's raw stats are better because he uses over 5% more of his team's possessions than Leonard does.  They're similarly efficient.  I'd give the edge to Durant prior to the Golden State move (his stats might suffer next year and impact his standing), but it's really close.

Not sure which way you're using his usage, but generally speaking where 2 players of similar efficiency are separated by usage, that's a definite credit to the high usage player; in this case Durant. Being able to maintain efficiency while carrying more of the load has definite value, and again speaking generally, once you pass a median point efficiency tends to decrease as usage increases. 

[briantw]

23 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Not sure which way you're using his usage, but generally speaking where 2 players of similar efficiency are separated by usage, that's a definite credit to the high usage player; in this case Durant. Being able to maintain efficiency while carrying more of the load has definite value, and again speaking generally, once you pass a median point efficiency tends to decrease as usage increases. 

I was saying that his raw stats (PTS, REB, AST, etc) are higher in part because he uses more of his team's possessions.  And Kawhi is a high usage player as well and incredibly efficient, so it's not as if he's a glorified role-player here.  He uses a quarter of his team's possessions.  Durant uses 30%.  It's not some vast gulf, but it does explain why Durant's raw stats are higher.  I'd also credit OKC's iso-heavy offense compared with the Spurs' focus on ball movement.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

7 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

? Not sure how a deliberate, off-the-ball foul would automatically be considered a flagrant. Unless it is flagrant (A foul that involves excessive or violent contact that could potentially injure).  

Deliberate off-the-ball foul isn´t the same as hack-a-shaq. You can deliberately foul off-the-ball within the game (screens, post-ups etc.)

Definition of flagrant 1 from nba.com, bolding and underlining mine.

Flagrant "1" (FFP1) - unnecessary contact committed by a player against an opponent. The opposing team is awarded two (2) free throws and possession.

Excessive or violent is flagrant 2.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

The issue with Kawhi is do you trust him with the ball in his hands at the end of a close game? Because I absolutely want the ball in Durant's hands, but I can't say with a ton of confidence that I want it in Kawhi's. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The issue with Kawhi is do you trust him with the ball in his hands at the end of a close game? Because I absolutely want the ball in Durant's hands, but I can't say with a ton of confidence that I want it in Kawhi's. 

No, but I want Kawhi on that guy, pretty much over anyone else in the league. those two things kind of balance out, methinks. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

No, but I want Kawhi on that guy, pretty much over anyone else in the league. those two things kind of balance out, methinks. 

I agree with the first part, but I don't think it's a wash. I want my star to be able to take over a late game, and while Kawhi is a solid, efficient scorer, he doesn't strike me as the type of player that can consistently dominate a game. 

[briantw]

23 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The issue with Kawhi is do you trust him with the ball in his hands at the end of a close game? Because I absolutely want the ball in Durant's hands, but I can't say with a ton of confidence that I want it in Kawhi's. 

Based on the Western Conference Finals, Durant doesn't even want the ball in his hands at the end of a close game.  

[DunderMifflin]

KAT might be better than Anthony Davis, he had a better rookie year than Davis did.

I think those two are going to be the NBA ambassadors after KD peaks. Return of the Big Man.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, briantw said:

Based on the Western Conference Finals, Durant doesn't even want the ball in his hands at the end of a close game.  

And LeBron shrunk a whole lot worse in 2011 Finals. It happens, even to great players.

Sometimes, and I know this is blasphemous, I wish Jordan didn't exist, or had his own failings in the Finals (he did have his struggles earlier on though). He's set a nearly impossible standard for anyone else to live up to and the players that came before him don't seem to get judged in the same way current players do. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I agree with the first part, but I don't think it's a wash. I want my star to be able to take over a late game, and while Kawhi is a solid, efficient scorer, he doesn't strike me as the type of player that can consistently dominate a game. 

Yeah, I agree with that. In the scenario you described though, I think being able to stop that shot is as good as being able to make it. Two sides of the same coin, kinda.

[Fez]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

And LeBron shrunk a whole lot worse in 2011 Finals. It happens, even to great players.

Sometimes, and I know this is blasphemous, I wish Jordan didn't exist, or had his own failings in the Finals (he did have his struggles earlier on though). He's set a nearly impossible standard for anyone else to live up to and the players that came before him don't seem to get judged in the same way current players do. 

Jordan still had bad big games, even in the '90s. It was just that he was fortunate enough to always have teammates step up or he would out of nowhere put up a really great 4th quarter to wash it away. Game 6 of the '96 Finals, Jordan was 5 for 19 shooting with 5 turnovers. The Bulls still won pretty easily thanks to Rodman having an amazing game, but if not for that it wouldn't have been too hard to imagine Seattle winning that game. Jordan probably would've then had a legendary Game 7 performance to rip out Seattle's heart, but who knows?

But almost no one even remembers how Jordan played in that game anymore and that even he didn't always live up to his standard.

[Jaime L]

1 hour ago, Fez said:

Jordan still had bad big games, even in the '90s. It was just that he was fortunate enough to always have teammates step up or he would out of nowhere put up a really great 4th quarter to wash it away. Game 6 of the '96 Finals, Jordan was 5 for 19 shooting with 5 turnovers. The Bulls still won pretty easily thanks to Rodman having an amazing game, but if not for that it wouldn't have been too hard to imagine Seattle winning that game. Jordan probably would've then had a legendary Game 7 performance to rip out Seattle's heart, but who knows?

But almost no one even remembers how Jordan played in that game anymore and that even he didn't always live up to his standard.

He was also 6/19 shooting two games before that. Gary Motherfucking Payton!