Literally the son(g) of Ice and Fire.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

We all know how Jon is a son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, the fulfillment of thePact of Ice and Fire and repressent the union between Ice and Fire. But since TWOIAF we have seen that Jon is literally the son between Ice and Fire since he is 50% Stark through his maternal grandparents Rickard Stark and Lyarra Stark and 50% Fire through his paternal grandparents Aerys Targaryen and Rhaella Targaryen.

Could this mean that Jon isn’t only a son of Ice and Fire but also like Rhaegar told Elia “his is the song of ice and fire.” he is the balance between those two elements and the one who will kill both the Others and the Dragons to bring the Song?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Something like that. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Funny I thought Rhaegar was talking to Dany when he said their must be one more... And I thought it was in her chapter... might not there be 2 kids involved in the song of ice and fire... One with a dire wolf and one with dragons... And maybe both share a mix of Stark and Targ blood, just saying... It's possible

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And I thought it was in her chapter...

The Wo5K and the Red Wedding were also in her chapter and had nothing to do with her.

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Funny I thought Rhaegar was talking to Dany when he said their must be one more...

He turns to a place where Dany stands. But since he is talking to Elia and we don't know about Rhaegar watching visions he doesn't talk to Dany.

[Rumy Stark]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

We all know how Jon is a son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, the fulfillment of thePact of Ice and Fire and repressent the union between Ice and Fire. But since TWOIAF we have seen that Jon is literally the son between Ice and Fire since he is 50% Stark through his maternal grandparents Rickard Stark and Lyarra Stark and 50% Fire through his paternal grandparents Aerys Targaryen and Rhaella Targaryen.

Could this mean that Jon isn’t only a son of Ice and Fire but also like Rhaegar told Elia “his is the song of ice and fire.” he is the balance between those two elements and the one who will kill both the Others and the Dragons to bring the Song?

I've thought this for a while, and honestly it was the most compelling argument for R + L = J to me. GRRM kind of goes out of his way to establish that Ned, Lyanna, Brandon, and Benjen are double Starks and Rhaegar was a double Targaryen. It's as pure as the bloodlines get in world, so it becomes a very true meeting of ice and fire. The one thing that always gets me about it though is that Jon doesn't seem to have any fire affinity//dreams of dragons, anything. We don't see even a shred of Targ in him, which is interesting. 

14 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The Wo5K and the Red Wedding were also in her chapter and had nothing to do with her.

He turns to a place where Dany stands. But since he is talking to Elia and we don't know about Rhaegar watching visions he doesn't talk to Dany.

Do we know he's talking to Elia though? We technically don't even know it's Rhaegar. The scene is very, very vague. Dany just tells us the guy looks kind of like Viserys except his eyes are indigo and that a woman is in a bed and there is a baby. The man also has a silver harp so it's easy to assume it's Rhaegar, esp when he names the kid "Aegon," but the woman isn't even close to described and everything is so intentionally vague that it could be anyone and it could even be something that didn't actually happen. 

[Rippounet]

That's certainly one way of reading it...

Of course, this is assuming that Jon is the PtwP and that Rhaegar was right about the song being his.
It's also assuming that the song of ice and fire is about bringing balance between the two elements.
It's even assuming that you need to kill everything to bring about balance.

And everytime I see this kind of theory, I always wonder what's supposed to happen to Dany (or other main characters for that matter) in this kind of scenario.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

20 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The Wo5K and the Red Wedding were also in her chapter and had nothing to do with her.

He turns to a place where Dany stands. But since he is talking to Elia and we don't know about Rhaegar watching visions he doesn't talk to Dany.

First I think you are assuming the vision of he servitors molesting the woman was supposed to be the war of five kings (an analogy I never thought made any sense since as it is pointed out Renly died before Balon crowned himself) and that the king at the feast for the dead with a wolfs head looking at her with SILENT appeal is the red wedding... Again I disagree, the conspicuously quiet wolf is Ghost, and Rob never looked to her with appeal, that her seeing the red wedding doesn't make any sense should be noted too since it had no impact on her or her plot. 

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "

It is pretty unclear who he is talking to but if you think that is Aegon he is talking about then either Young Griff really is Aegon, or Rhaegar was wrong again... The point is it is Dany who sees the vision and it sure seems like Rhaegar is directing at least some of his speech at her...

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Rumy Stark said:

Do we know he's talking to Elia though?

IIRC GRRM had confirmed that the woman is Elia.

3 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

.It's also assuming that the song of ice and fire is about bringing balance between the two elements.

The song is the balance between the silence and noise. It's only natural that it's about balance.

5 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

It's even assuming that you need to kill everything to bring about balance.

So you believe that there in no need to kill or at least defeat the Others?

1 minute ago, Rippounet said:

I always wonder what's supposed to happen to Dany

Dany represents the Fire and when she may not be a villain she has nothing to do with balance.

2 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

(or other main characters for that matter)

Who are the other characters that are involved in the Others' storyline? Mel and Bran who are involved with Jon's storyline, one is a God in training who hangs out with a God who happens to also be a union close to the union of Jon's parents and is Jon's great uncle. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

as it is pointed out Renly died before Balon crowned himself

Mance was alive tho and even if he wasn't involved in the War he was planning to attack the North.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Again I disagree, the conspicuously quiet wolf is Ghost, and Rob never looked to her with appeal, that her seeing the red wedding doesn't make any sense should be noted too since it had no impact on her or her plot. 

The wolf is silent because like the man he is dead and dead men don't make noises.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It is pretty unclear who he is talking to but if you think that is Aegon he is talking about then either Young Griff really is Aegon, or Rhaegar was wrong again...

GRRM has already confirmed that the woman is Elia and since no one ever told that Rhaegar was watching visons doesn't explain how he could look at Dany.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The point is it is Dany who sees the vision and it sure seems like Rhaegar is directing at least some of his speech at her...

If she is looking at a *blue-eyed king who casts no shadow* and *a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice* there is no reason why she couldn't see something about a Prince who isn't herself.

I've thought this for a while, and honestly it was the most compelling argument for R + L = J to me. GRRM kind of goes out of his way to establish that Ned, Lyanna, Brandon, and Benjen are double Starks and Rhaegar was a double Targaryen. It's as pure as the bloodlines get in world, so it becomes a very true meeting of ice and fire. 

This is why in my opinion GRRM hadn't mentioned who Ned's mother was, even if he had told that she was Lady Stark.

The one thing that always gets me about it though is that Jon doesn't seem to have any fire affinity//dreams of dragons, anything. We don't see even a shred of Targ in him, which is interesting. 

There are many Targs that didn't had dragon dreams or aren't pyromaniacs. That doesn't mean that they were not Targs. Jon does have *walking the dragon* moments and he does seems to personalitywise be very similar to Rhaegar.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Mance was alive tho and even if he wasn't involved in the War he was planning to attack the North.

The wolf is silent because like the man he is dead and dead men don't make noises.

GRRM has already confirmed that the woman is Elia and since no one ever told that Rhaegar was watching visons doesn't explain how he could look at Dany.

If she is looking at a *blue-eyed king who casts no shadow* and *a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice* there is no reason why she couldn't see something about a Prince who isn't herself.

All fair, but in my opinion...

The servitors molesting the woman are in fact the shape in the shadows and not a metaphor for anything, the parallels between the House of he Undying and the Children of the Forrest's hole where we meet Bloodraven are too numerous to seem like coincidence to me (plus none of the other rooms seem like grand metaphors)

we see multiple people have visions of feasts of the dead, I don't think there are any others described as silent...and Lady Stoneheart sure isn't silent. But there are other visions of wolf headed boys that aren't dead yet (Bran) in Mel's fire for example... In addition the crown is described as iron, which may or may not differentiate it from Robs Iron and Bronze crown.

Ya it seems GRRM sent an email once that said it was Elia Martell... Though it hasn't ever been confined in official print, soo I won't fight that fight but it's kinda meh. Anyway none of the visions are necessarily exactly what happened or even true so there's no reason to think Rhaegar saw Dany for real, though odd time stuff might be a possibility in the series, but I'd rather ignor that possibility while I can.

Be careful now, Dany seeing a blue flower in the Wall connects her to Lyanna, who else is seeing blue roses, it's just your predisposition to R+L=J that makes you see Jon and no other possibility... Of course in this case it could easily be both, remember that Dany has fond memories of sweet flower smells that don't seem to fit with Braavos at all.

The blue eyed king without a shadow, again hard to know at this point, Jon? Stannis? Nights King?  it's also worth noting that the triplets at the end are seemingly more specific prophesies than the rooms she passes on the way in... 3 mounts, treasons, and fires... Of course the order they are in is anyone's guess.

But I guess I'd still expect the things she sees to be relevant to her, and not some event totally unconnected to her... In fact I'd suggest all the things she sees are either her experiences or her family...

 

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The song is the balance between the silence and noise. It's only natural that it's about balance.

That's an interesting interpretation.

Perhaps, we should start by discussing the meaning of "song,", though I believe this has been done on the forum before, and surely, you have read such a thread at least once.

I made my own selection of interesting uses of the word "song" in the books:

Quote

"Old Nan says the children knew the songs of the trees, that they could fly like birds and swim like fish and talk to the animals," Bran said. "She says that they made music so beautiful that it made you cry like a little baby just to hear it."
AGoT, Bran VII

Quote

The Drowned God had made them to reave and rape, to carve out kingdoms and write their names in fire and blood and song. [...]
His father was old now, and so too his uncle Victarion, who commanded the Iron Fleet. His uncle Euron was a different song, to be sure, but the Silence did not seem to be in port.
ACoK, Theon I

Quote

As for burning the letters, to what point? The song is sung, the wine is spilled, the wench is pregnant.
ACoK, Tyrion III

Quote

When Tyrion shrugged, Littlefinger burst into laughter. "I thought not. You're a dangerous little man, Lannister. Yes, I could sing this song to Lysa." Again the sly smile, the mischief in his glance. "If I cared to."
ACoK, Tyrion IV

Quote

The eunuch handed him a scroll. "So much villainy, it sings a sad song for our age. Did honor die with our fathers?"
ACoK, Tyrion XI

Quote

Away off, she could hear the sounds of battle. The singing almost drowned them out, but the sounds were there if you had the ears to hear: the deep moan of warhorns, the creak and thud of catapults flinging stones, the splashes and splinterings, the crackle of burning pitch and thrum of scorpions loosing their yard-long iron-headed shafts . . . and beneath it all, the cries of dying men.

It was another sort of song, a terrible song.
ACoK, Sansa V

 

Quote

"Them. Three hundred of them." Whatever is asked, the Halfhand said. So why do I feel so craven? "Two hundred from Castle Black, and one hundred from the Shadow Tower."

"There's a truer song than the one you sang in my tent."
ASoS, Jon II

Quote

"No?" Symon Silver Tongue put his harp aside and took a sip of wine. "A pity. Still, each man has his song, as my old master used to say when he was teaching me to play. Others might like my tune better. The queen, perhaps. Or your lord father."
ASoS, Tyrion IV

Quote

"Prince Rhaegar's prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister.
ASoS, Dany IV

Quote

Arya took a step backward as the long steel song began. The Tickler came off the bench with a shortsword in one hand and a dagger in the other. Even the chunky brown-haired squire was up, fumbling for his swordhilt. She snatched her wine cup off the table and threw it at his face. Her aim was better than it had been at the Twins.
ASoS, Arya XIII

Quote

Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. "Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?" It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords. "Warrior defend me," he groaned, "now I know how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt."
ASoS, Jon XII

Quote

When he heard the name Hollard, the maester frowned with irritation. "How often must I sing this song?" Her face must have given her away. "Did you think you were the first to come seeking after Dontos? More like the twenty-first. The gold cloaks were here within days of the king's murder, with Lord Tywin's warrant. And what do you have, pray?"
AFfC, Brienne II

Quote

Ser Ilyn raised his blade in reply, and Jaime moved at once to the attack. Payne was as rusty as his ringmail, and not so strong as Brienne, yet he met every cut with his own blade, or interposed his shield. They danced beneath the horned moon as the blunted swords sang their steely song.
AFfC, Jaime III

The peasants denied seeing them, but when questioned sharply they sang a different song. They spoke of a one-eyed man and another who wore a yellow cloak . . . and a woman, cloaked and hooded."
AFfC, Jaime IV

Quote

"She is to be tried as well, by the same court that conducts your trial. I had the Blue Bard delivered to the High Septon, as Your Grace commanded. He is here now, somewhere down below us. My whisperers tell me that they are whipping him, but so far he is still singing the same sweet song we taught him."
AFfC, Cersei X

Quote

Outside the armory, Iron Emmett was still urging on his charges in the yard. The song of steel on steel woke a hunger in Jon.
ADwD, Jon VI

Quote

"Smitten?" Bolton laughed. "Did he use that word? Why, the boy has a singer's soul … though if you believe that song, you may well be dimmer than the first Reek.
ADwD, Reek III

Quote

The moon was fat and full. Stars wheeled across a black sky. Rain fell and froze, and tree limbs snapped from the weight of the ice. Bran and Meera made up names for those who sang the song of earth: Ash and Leaf and Scales, Black Knife and Snowylocks and Coals. Their true names were too long for human tongues, said Leaf. Only she could speak the Common Tongue, so what the others thought of their new names Bran never learned. [...]
"Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."
ADwD, Bran III

Quote

They emerged from the storm like a troop of wraiths, big men on small horses, made even bigger by the bulky furs they wore. Swords rode on their hips, singing their soft steel song as they rattled in their scabbards.
ADwD, The Sacrifice

Quote

Near the end, before the smoking ketch was swallowed by the sea, the cries of the seven sweetlings changed to joyous song, it seemed to Victarion Greyjoy. A great wind came up then, a wind that filled their sails and swept them north and east and north again, toward Meereen and its pyramids of many-colored bricks. On wings of song I fly to you, Daenerys, the iron captain thought.
ADwD, Victarion I

Quote

So once again she turned her back upon the distant hill and closed her ears to the song of flight and freedom that the wind sang as it played amongst the hill's stony ridges.
ADwD, Dany X

 

From this I would say that apart from the obvious meaning of "song" the word is also very often used as a synonym for "story" throughout the books: "to sing a song" is a poetic way of saying "to tell a story."
A few times, fighting is described as being a "song" : the "song of steel/swords."

Only once is the idea of balance ever mentioned in relation to songs, in ADwD, Bran III. This raises many questions as to the definition of "balance." After all, now that winter has come, "Ice" is dominant ; how balance will be restored is anyone's guess.

Based on the books, I would say the title of the series is most likely to mean two things:
"A Story of Ice and Fire", or perhaps even "A Story of Starks and Targaryens."

One might argue it's about "A Conflict between Ice and Fire" but I kind of doubt it, because so far, Ice and Fire haven't really been at war. And the problem is knowing whether "Ice" refers to the Others or to the Starks. Some have theorized that they are linked somehow, but there is barely any textual evidence of that so far.

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So you believe that there in no need to kill or at least defeat the Others?

I don't hold any specific belief today, but I would be careful about assuming anything.

It's possible that both the Others and the dragons are destined to die, but I think that's a huge task for a single individual.

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Dany represents the Fire and when she may not be a villain she has nothing to do with balance.

Methinks it's too soon to be certain about that. Dany's inner conflict has yet to be resolved, and she seems to be learning the same lesson that Stannis did: that conquering is not enough to rule.

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Who are the other characters that are involved in the Others' storyline? Mel and Bran who are involved with Jon's storyline, one is a God in training who hangs out with a God who happens to also be a union close to the union of Jon's parents and is Jon's great uncle. 

Bloodraven is also a parent of Dany's, and Dany also has some Blackwood blood. This isn't exactly relevant.

The point is that this isn't a story in which we have a single hero. One might even argue that there isn't any "hero" in the story, merely individuals who at times may act heroically -or not. I don't think the last five books suggest that Jon will restore balance to the world on his own .

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

From this I would say that apart from the obvious meaning of "song" the word is also very often used as a synonym for "story" throughout the books: "to sing a song" is a poetic way of saying "to tell a story."

I had never thought about that. I suppose it does make sense for a song to be a story, like ballads from the Medieval world.

3 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

One might argue it's about "A Conflict between Ice and Fire" but I kind of doubt it, because so far, Ice and Fire haven't really been at war. And the problem is knowing whether "Ice" refers to the Others or to the Starks. Some have theorized that they are linked somehow, but there is barely any textual evidence of that so far.

Well if Mel is right the Great Other and R'hllor are in an eternal war and the Wall is made from fire magic among other in order to stop the Ice zombies.

3 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

It's possible that both the Others and the dragons are destined to die, but I think that's a huge task for a single individual.

3 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

The point is that this isn't a story in which we have a single hero. One might even argue that there isn't any "hero" in the story, merely individuals who at times may act heroically -or not. I don't think the last five books suggest that Jon will restore balance to the world on his own .

I am not claiming that there will be only one man who will singlehandedly won the war. I believe that the united humanity will won but it will be under one man's authority and leadership.

3 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Bloodraven is also a parent of Dany's

Wut?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

17 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Well if Mel is right the Great Other and R'hllor are in an eternal war and the Wall is made from fire magic among other in order to stop the Ice zombies.

When is Mel ever right about anything? Lel

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, LiveFirstDieLater said:

When is Mel ever right about anything? Lel

Yes she was, she may had been wrong sometimes but the results were the same. Stannis may not had been AAR, but he was her way to Jon. There is no reason why someone shouldn't believe that R'hllor and Great Other are enemies.

[Free Northman Reborn]

And born beneath a bleeding Star(k)...

By the way, thanks for pointing out that Jon's parents were both as pure blooded representatives of their lineages as you are likely to get. I forgot that Ned's mom was also a Stark. Certainly puts an added spin on things.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

26 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Yes she was, she may had been wrong sometimes but the results were the same. Stannis may not had been AAR, but he was her way to Jon. There is no reason why someone shouldn't believe that R'hllor and Great Other are enemies.

Haha I was kinda kidding, I mean she clearly has some sort of power, the shadow babies prove that... But you have to admit her track record for interpreting her visions is really bad... I for one am not entirely convinced that R'hllor and the Great Other really exist any more than the Seven or the Drowned God or the Many Faced God even exist as rational thinking entities

[MostlyMoody]

Hell yeah! I hate grey characters, intricate plotlines and ambiguous, bitter-sweet endings. 

Jon Snow, the hero we want, but the hero we don't deserve.

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I had never thought about that. I suppose it does make sense for a song to be a story, like ballads from the Medieval world.

There's also Robert Frost's poem as an inspiration (though it doesn't seem very relevant to me).

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Well if Mel is right the Great Other and R'hllor are in an eternal war and the Wall is made from fire magic among other in order to stop the Ice zombies.

Sure. But on which side of this great war are the Starks supposed to be? 

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I am not claiming that there will be only one man who will singlehandedly won the war. I believe that the united humanity will won but it will be under one man's authority and leadership.

Oh. Then sure, if there is such a man, Jon might be him.

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Wut?

Bloodraven was Aegon IV's son who was Dany's great-great-great-great-grandfather, so they are distantly related. Of course, Jon is just as distant a relative to Bloodraven anyway so it's not that big a deal.
And Dany's great-grandmother was Betha Blackwood.

[300 H&H Magnum]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

We all know how Jon is a son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, the fulfillment of thePact of Ice and Fire and repressent the union between Ice and Fire. But since TWOIAF we have seen that Jon is literally the son between Ice and Fire since he is 50% Stark through his maternal grandparents Rickard Stark and Lyarra Stark and 50% Fire through his paternal grandparents Aerys Targaryen and Rhaella Targaryen.

Could this mean that Jon isn’t only a son of Ice and Fire but also like Rhaegar told Elia “his is the song of ice and fire.” he is the balance between those two elements and the one who will kill both the Others and the Dragons to bring the Song?

Not likely.  He might lead the North against the Others.  I agree, he is important to the story.  Jon is the second most important character in the story, right behind Daenerys. 

Jon will fail to defend the North.  He actually fucked up at the Wall already when he got involved in Ramsay Bolton's family business.  Many northerners will get turned to wights.  Dany and Drogon will roast the walking ice zombies at The Trident.  Perhaps Jon will be one of those zombies that get roasted, perhaps not. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Sigh.