Jeyne Westerling: Queen Regent of the North?

[Kytheros]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Jon Snow didn't get out of the Night's Watch and wasn't proclaimed King in the North in the absence of Robb having children of his own body. Robb may have legitimized Jon Snow in his last will but that didn't get him out of the NW. Robb intended to get Jon out of there after he had retaken the North by basically offering the NW a deal they couldn't possibly refuse but nothing came of that.

The idea that Robb would have named a regent for his non-existing son makes no sense at all in any case but especially not Jon who, at this point, would have been unable to take up such an office.

Not to mention that Robb's last will is not very likely to become relevant considering that the Stark loyalists in the North (the Wulls, Manderlys, and Glovers) actually know that Bran and Rickon are still alive, making Robb's entire rationale to legitimize Jon Snow irrelevant.

In such a scenario such a thing could make sense. But not the way it was. Not to mention that it would not work while Jon Snow was still a minor himself. Regents have to be of age, that's the whole point of being a regent.

Because Robb didn't have the time to carry out everything he wanted to do doesn't mean he didn't want Jon out of the Watch as soon as he could get him. Robb wrote the will to stabilize his succession if anything happened to him. Leaving Jon at the Wall as part of the Night's Watch doesn't help stabilize Robb's succession. The only way to stabilize the succession if Robb dies without issue is to have Jon readily available to take up the Crown, and the only to do that is to have Jon already out of the Watch.

It's entirely possible that one of the verbal directives he gives to Maege Mormont and/or Glover include bargaining with Lord Commander Mormont to get Jon out of the Watch.

As far as the relevance of Robb's will goes - Jon is still the only male Stark who is both of age and physical ability to fight. He's the only male Stark who got as much training as Robb did. Bran only saw his first execution - and Rickon's a five or six year old now, who's spent nearly half his life away from the Starks. And, if Robb's will did what it is widely thought to have done - that is, legitimize and explicitly name Jon as Robb's heir following heirs of his body, then Jon, per Robb's will is ahead of both Bran and Rickon in Robb's succession. It doesn't matter that Bran and Rickon aren't actually dead unless Robb actually wrote down "because my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, I name Jon my heir solely after heirs of my body" - all that matters is what Robb actually wrote, which was most likely legitimizing and naming Jon as Robb's heir in the absence of heirs of his body, and doing so clearly and explicitly, without any further conditionals or modifiers. That's why I think if Bran and/or Rickon showed up and Jon knew about Robb's will, Jon would try to apply the succession clauses intended for Robb's children to Bran or Rickon.

A King who can lead men, fight, and rule today is a better option than the child-Kings, one of whom is crippled and missing, the other is a five or six year old child who is also missing, either of whom would require regencies.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Kytheros said:

It's entirely possible that one of the verbal directives he gives to Maege Mormont and/or Glover include bargaining with Lord Commander Mormont to get Jon out of the Watch.

Nothing of that is mentioned, though. Robb academically talks about giving the Watch a lot of men in return for Jon. That is well and good and could have worked if Jon had been willing to leave the Watch. But nobody is going to do that on behalf of a dead king.

1 hour ago, Kytheros said:

As far as the relevance of Robb's will goes - Jon is still the only male Stark who is both of age and physical ability to fight. He's the only male Stark who got as much training as Robb did. Bran only saw his first execution - and Rickon's a five or six year old now, who's spent nearly half his life away from the Starks. And, if Robb's will did what it is widely thought to have done - that is, legitimize and explicitly name Jon as Robb's heir following heirs of his body, then Jon, per Robb's will is ahead of both Bran and Rickon in Robb's succession. It doesn't matter that Bran and Rickon aren't actually dead unless Robb actually wrote down "because my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, I name Jon my heir solely after heirs of my body" - all that matters is what Robb actually wrote, which was most likely legitimizing and naming Jon as Robb's heir in the absence of heirs of his body, and doing so clearly and explicitly, without any further conditionals or modifiers. That's why I think if Bran and/or Rickon showed up and Jon knew about Robb's will, Jon would try to apply the succession clauses intended for Robb's children to Bran or Rickon.
 

Considering that we don't know the wording of the last will this is a moot discussion. But I'm pretty sure that if it contains a legitimization decree it will mention the reason why Jon Snow is supposed to be Robb's heir and also specifies the conditions when exactly that's going to occur. I mean, if Robb would win the war and free Sansa he most likely would not want to have her disinherited, right? And the same goes if he has children of his own at the time of his death.

Thus it is also pretty likely that he mentioned something along the lines of 'Because fate took my beloved brothers Brandon and Rickon from me...' making the whole thing null and void from the start because Bran and Rickon Stark are not dead.

And whether a legitimized Jon has a better claim as Bran and Rickon is open to debate. There might be lords in the North who would prefer Lord Rickon or Lord Brandon, especially if those guys end up marrying their daughters.

[Nevets]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That makes little sense because Robb's will was supposed to make preparations for the case that he died without an heir of his own body. Jon Snow was a precaution for that case, not somebody he would get out of the NW if he had an infant son - in the name of said son could rule some lord.

That makes no difference. The Westerlings were rewarded by the Lannisters for their role in the demise of Robb Stark. And Catelyn knows that now.

Sure she knows that. Tom will tell her that the Westerlings were pardoned and rewarded for their part in everything.

Podrick Payne is still a child and had nothing to do with Ned's execution. Not to mention, you know, that Ilyn Payne is just doing his job. He is a headsman. It makes no sense to blame the king's headsman for executions the king commanded.

The fact that Cat don't cares about not killing innocents is a strong sign that Jeyne is not going to get away. 

LSH would have to get hold of Jeyne before she could actually do anything.  Jeyne is being taken to the Westerlands under very heavy guard.  It is very doubtful that the Blackfish or anyone else could muster sufficient forces to launch a successful rescue before they enter friendly territory.  My guess is that her appearance in the Prologue is her arrival at Casterly Rock, told from the POV of someone at CR.

The Westerlings were pardoned for their role supporting Robb, just like everyone else that supported him.  The only reward they have been given publicly at this point is Rolph Spicer being named Lord of Castermere, and Catelyn never trusted him anyway.  The Blackfish seemed to be under the belief that the Westerlings would be in danger from the Lannisters at his parley with Jaime.

As for Podrick, he was Tyrion's squire and is claiming to be Brienne's squire as well.  LSH and the BwB have good reason to think Brienne is an enemy, and Podrick's status as her squire takes him out of the realm of innocence. 

Not that it really matters.  LSH isn't getting her hands on Jeyne in any case.  Jeyne could potentially fade away, or could become a symbol of Lannister treachery as Robb's widow.  It's hard to say.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Nevets said:

LSH would have to get hold of Jeyne before she could actually do anything.  Jeyne is being taken to the Westerlands under very heavy guard.  It is very doubtful that the Blackfish or anyone else could muster sufficient forces to launch a successful rescue before they enter friendly territory.  My guess is that her appearance in the Prologue is her arrival at Casterly Rock, told from the POV of someone at CR.

That is a very unlikely scenario, actually. We have Tom at Riverrun and effective confirmation that he is passing on information (he certainly helped arranged the murder of Ryman Frey and his escort). It should be difficult for the Brotherhood to attack the escort under Ser Forley Prester, but not impossible. And who knows? Perhaps Catelyn also knows that Prester has command to kill the prisoners in case of an ambush and wants to cause the deaths of Edmure and Jeyne so that she can then use this as fuel to cause a general uprising of the Riverlords. At this point that wouldn't be beyond her.

But we have to keep in mind that Cat's people should know the Riverlands very well and thus be able to stage some sort of ambush that could actually free the prisoners.

The idea that we'll get a Prologue at Casterly Rock is intriguing but I don't see who could be there right now that could feature prominently in the story, especially not some person that would then be introduced via the Prologue. Not to mention that this would necessitate a new POV at Casterly Rock to continue that story.

 

[Michael Mertyns]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that we'll get a Prologue at Casterly Rock is intriguing but I don't see who could be there right now that could feature prominently in the story, especially not some person that would then be introduced via the Prologue. Not to mention that this would necessitate a new POV at Casterly Rock to continue that story.

The prologue has to leave its story relatively finished or pass the major players onto characters we've seen because the prologue POV isn't going to be around afterwards. If the rescue is successful, we possibly could see the aftermath if Jaime and/or Brienne are still around.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Lady Stoneheart would be an interesting prologue POV... although there's other stories that need to be resolved before she can die. But there's no reason a prologue POV can't live, just because the other ones didn't.

Anyway, Jeyne Westerling - probably not, but I do think there's the possibility of something unexpected being in Robb's will, and he could've made some provision for his Queen, i.e. that she be regent or that the Westerlings be transplanted north or something. There are some theories that Robb actually makes Catelyn his heir; whether that's true or not, it is interesting that we never actually see the contents of the will.

As for Lady Stoneheart killing Jeyne, I agree she probably would, but I'd disagree that Jeyne knew she was being used in a honey trap. There were hints about love potions, but beyond that, it's two horny teenagers shut in a room together. Hell, maybe Jeyne was a slut and her mother knew it and expected Jeyne to bang any half good-looking lad she introduced her to.

[Michael Mertyns]

30 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Lady Stoneheart would be an interesting prologue POV... although there's other stories that need to be resolved before she can die. But there's no reason a prologue POV can't live, just because the other ones didn't.

It seems unlikely the trend of prologue POVs dying is going to break now.

IIRC GRRM has said there will be no new POVs (excluding prologue and possible epilogue), but technically LS is a character with a previous POV. It would probably read pretty strangely...

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

28 minutes ago, Michael Mertyns said:

IIRC GRRM has said there will be no new POVs (excluding prologue and possible epilogue), but technically LS is a character with a previous POV. It would probably read pretty strangely...

That's why I'm curious - how much sentience is going on behind those eyes - and how different is the personality?

[Agent 326]

I personally believe that Jeyne Westerling is pregnant and with the Blackfish.

Here's my evidence:

The hip size and physical description Jaime and Cat give do not match, even if we accept the hip size as a mistake, Cat thinks that Jeyne is pretty and Jaime thinks Jeyne was not a girl to risk a kingdom for. And so one might say well Jaime only has eyes for Cersei, and while this was true at the beginning of the books, at one point he has an erection in the bath scene in Harrenhal, while looking at Briene. Also Jeyne is around 17 when Jaime "meets her" and yet he thinks her to be no older than 15 or 16.

The fact that Sybell Spicer's grandma is Maggy the Frog, who Cersei very likely had killed.

The Blackfish wasn't willing to trade in 2 girls, a woman, and a boy, for his nephew, and yes he didn't trust the Freys or Jaime, but he could give them one and then make them give over Edmure and then give up the rest of the hostages. Also Blackfish then just leaves her their then when they surrender the castle.

If this isn't the case and Rickon dies, house Stark becomes extinguished through the male line. Bran is paralyzed from the waste and below, Sansa and Arya are female, and Jon is a Targaryen.

Also one of the big themes that we have had is people taking on other's identities. Arya, Sansa, Mance, Mance again at Winterfell, Jeyne Poole, Ramsay as Reek, Barristan as Arstan, Tyrion as Hugor Hill, Jon Con as Griff, Aegon as Young Griff, potentially Myrcella and her hand maid switched identities, The Mountain as Robert Strong, The Hound as the Grave Digger, Catelyn as Lady Stoneheart, whoever is actually the hooded man, Jared, Rhaegar and Symond as pies, etc;.

Also people lie in Westeros, a lot. Jeyne's mom could've been lying about lying to Robb telling him that he was giving his wife fertility herbs. Also for what its worth Greywind didn't show much distrust towards Sybell, and we do know that he knows who can and can't be trust, remember how he freaked out when they got to the Twins.

In odd number prologues the POV is north of the Wall, and in even number prolouges the two POVs we have gotten where a Maester and a studying at the Citadel to become a Maester. So I think that the prologue POV for TWOW will be a Maester traveling with the Blackfish and Jeyne Westerling, because it seems like a Maester would be helpful because he would help as a healer and I'm not sure the Blackfish knows how to deliver a baby.

This would also parallel another escape from a castle held by people responsible for The Red Wedding, yes you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Also Jeyne Westerling was likely the person Bran saw in the Godswood somewhere praying for a son to avenge her.

Of course their may be another Westerling that they run into, who supposedly died at the Red Wedding, but then again they couldn't identify the corpses that where found in the riber because after a few days they all look alike.

Another thing that makes this fun is it makes the Northern Politics even more messy, with now five different teams, Team Jon (notable members likely include: Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont, Howland Reed? we do know several witnesses of Robb's will are in the Neck, the Greatjon, Jason Mallister and lord knows which team Edmure will be on), Team Rickon (notable members including: Wyman Manderly the Umber Castalleans, Barbery Dustin and Robett Glover), Team Stannis the Mannis (notable members include: Davos, Melisandre and not too many others), Team Jeyne Westerling's baby (notable members include: Blackfish, Raynald Westerling?, Edmure?), and team Roose (notable members including Walder Frey and the Crown).

Also what kind of a mother poisons their own child? (oh wait, sorry Martin I didn't mean to say that).

[Danelle]

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If this isn't the case and Rickon dies, house Stark becomes extinguished through the male line. Bran is paralyzed from the waste and below, Sansa and Arya are  female, and Jon is a Targaryen.

Not necessarily.

Jon might be Rhaegar's son but he is still a Stark. Robb who belived that Jon was Ned's bastard, when faced with the fact that Bran and Rickon were dead, Arya MIA and Sansa a Lannister, while Jeyne was not pregnant, considered Jon as his heir.

Quote

“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”

“If Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.”

“So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”

“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”

It is not impossible for Robb to have named Jon a Stark and his legal heir. 

Also regarding Sansa and Arya Stark, if they marry, there is the possibility for them to keep the name Stark, since their House is one of the oldest and most influential Houses in Westeros and the most powerful in the North. 

Quote

Also Jeyne Westerling was likely the person Bran saw in the Godswood somewhere praying for a son to avenge her.

There is a possibility that the woman is Jeyne but also there is a chance that the visions are in reverse chronological order. In that case the incident takes place years before Jeyne was born and probably during the period when Dunk visited Winterfell. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 7/6/2016 at 11:18 AM, House Beaudreau said:

If it turns out that Jeyne Westerling is in hiding and the Jeyne we see at Riverrun with Jamie was a fake... and if she is pregnant with Rob's child(or even a child that could pass for Robs child) Would Northern House and River lords rise up to defend the Heir to the King in the North and the King of the Trident?  

No. Jeyne having never been north of the riverlands would be a stranger. The future lies with Sansa and Jon 

[PCK]

There could be about 5-6 different claims to the North. If Martin really wanted to, he could make that situation a huge shitshow. 

Bran, Harry/Sansa, Arya, Jon (could have two), and Jeyne. Even Rickon could be argued for succession purposes.

 

 

[Luddagain]

Robb will have cast his will in this way if he was sensible and well advised.:

1. I name any child of mine via Jeyne  Westerling/Starkas my immediate heir.

2. I name  Maester Luwin and Jon Snow/Stark as joint  regents for any underage heir. (I think after the release of Jaime, Robb could not have named Catelyn as there would have been too much resentment)

3. In the my death and their being no living heir via Jeyne I name my sister Arya Stark as heir provided she is found alive within X years of the my death or that of any of my children AND provided she is still unwed and able to return to Winterfell

4. The same regency conditions apply to Arya until she reaches the age of 16

5. I exclude my sister Sansa Lannister and her heirs from succession to the position as Lord of Winterfell or King in the North

6. In the event that I have no living heirs and Arya Stark is not alive or able to return to Winterfell I name Jon Stark as heir to the kingdom in the North.

There would be a separate decree legitimizing Jon

[Luddagain]

Pck

There are in fact MANY claimants to the North each with armies to back them

1. A child of Jeyne Westerling - support from Lannisters and the IT and most of the South.  The vale would also support such a child eg Blackfish

2. Bran - the legitimate heir if their is no child by Jeyne, HOWEVER by Celtic tradition (which is pretty much how GRRM sees the North, a severely disabled child cannot inherit. He would probably have the support of Bloodraven and perhaps some in the riverlands and a few Northern Lords but not too many

3. Rickon - the choice obviously of the Manderlys and his Northern friends

4. Ramsay - supposedly married to Arya - his claim is strong assuming that Bran and Rickon are dead

5. Sansa - supported by the Vale  and of course LF in the absence of a child by Jeyne. Lady Stoneheart will support this claim - she loves  LF

6. The descendant of Edwin Stark's sister - who I think will prove to be a FREY once of the descendants of Perra Royce who was probably the third daughter - the one Catelyn could not remember who she married. - So many Freys are dead or soon to die - probably killing each other so the one likely to succeed is unclear but Black Walder is my bet as he will kill his brother Edwyn. Other possible heirs are young Byran, young Steffon, two young girls (walda and Perra) and three young Vances

7. Real Arya - not married to anyone

8. Jon Snow - obviously supported by Stannis and the NW and the Mormants. Strongly opposed by the Vale and Blackfish

9. Decedents of older Starks - especially Rodrik (who may be alive anyway along with his daughters, one of whom is of course Grandma). My guess is they they will support Rickon or Jon (or a regency between the two so that Jon can keep his vows but still manage the North)

10. The return of the descendants of the exiles who refused to bend the knee to dragons

[weirwoodface]

Although with his incredible, once-in-a-thousand-years magical talents, Bran is really not as severely disabled as all that. Naming just three of of his potential abilities as a skinchanger, he'd be able to spy on the enemy, wreak havoc with some sweet espionage, and go along on marches with his army -- and fight, if necessary.

 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Now that would be an interesting end for Lord Baelish- killed by Lady Stoneheart.

I think that is actually much more likely than Littlefinger being killed by Sansa or anyone else, really. Cat is the one who has been wronged by him the most. At least as of yet.

[Prof. Cecily]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think that is actually much more likely than Littlefinger being killed by Sansa or anyone else, really. Cat is the one who has been wronged by him the most. At least as of yet.

I eliminated my post because it's technically off-topic, but not before you reacted to it.

What reflexes, Lord Varys.

Killed by LSH.

Or choking on a piece of a 12 foot high lemon cake?

[Luddagain]

WWF

By today's standards Bran would be a wheelchair athlete and riding a tank to battle, but in GRRM's medieval world a paraplegic cannot lead a war band.

Now personally I think Bran would (will?) make a fine ruler but I was just listing all the claimants and the possible supporters/detractors.