What do the Others want?

[BricksAndSparrows]

4 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I suppose it is possible but the freehold stood for a very long time and the Targaryen family was a very minor Dragonlord family. There was a lot of resources in Westeros, it was easily accessible and not protected by a centralized power the way they were after Aegon I welded the kingdoms together.

Yeah. I'm sure they were going to get to it.

Maybe some of the Dragon Lords considered how long and difficult the Andal's struggle in Westeros was and it gave them pause. Or maybe the political climate and infighting was so much that nobody wanted to chance any portion of their power or resources in Westeros. Who can say?

 

[pride of the 7 kingdoms]

Hug?

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Yeah. I'm sure they were going to get to it.

Maybe some of the Dragon Lords considered how long and difficult the Andal's struggle in Westeros was and it gave them pause. Or maybe the political climate and infighting was so much that nobody wanted to chance any portion of their power or resources in Westeros. Who can say?

 

What I was wondering was if they understood the power that was north of the wall, knew how the long night could be brought on and realized that dragons should not be anywhere near there because of the danger in bringing down the wall

[BricksAndSparrows]

17 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

What I was wondering was if they understood the power that was north of the wall, knew how the long night could be brought on and realized that dragons should not be anywhere near there because of the danger in bringing down the wall

Oh. sorry for the tangent.

Hm. That's interesting. If it was an issue, I would assume it wasn't widely known. It didn't stop Aegon...

Are you thinking that Dragonflame could dispell the the magic that keeps the others from crossing the Wall?

 

[YOVMO]

9 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Oh. sorry for the tangent.

Hm. That's interesting. If it was an issue, I would assume it wasn't widely known. It didn't stop Aegon...

Are you thinking that Dragonflame could dispell the the magic that keeps the others from crossing the Wall?

 

Aegon might just have been nutty. Remember, targs had been on dragonstone for a while and never made a move. Aegon was a special case.

 

i feel like the Valyrians has a much more intense understanding of magic and as such may not have forgotten the lessons of the long night and what the reason for the wall was the way the westerosi seem to have.

I don't know if dragon flame can undo the ice magic in the wall, but it isn't the craziest thing right?

 

[Duncan_The_Short]

6 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I don't know if dragon flame can undo the ice magic in the wall, but it isn't the craziest thing right?

On the contrary, I think it's rather reasonable.  Since the making of Valyrian Steel has been lost in the aftermath of the doom it could well be that Dragonfire is a necessary component.  And since Valyrian Steel is the only known metal that is deadly to the WW it makes since that Dragonfire is what makes it so.

[YOVMO]

2 minutes ago, Duncan_The_Short said:

On the contrary, I think it's rather reasonable.  Since the making of Valyrian Steel has been lost in the aftermath of the doom it could well be that Dragonfire is a necessary component.  And since Valyrian Steel is the only known metal that is deadly to the WW it makes since that Dragonfire is what makes it so.

Yes, and Valyrians, as a slaving culture, wouldn't even have needed to hold westeros. Just going there and rounding up slaves would have been easy and good business. There had to be a serious reason they didn't 

[BricksAndSparrows]

4 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I don't know if dragon flame can undo the ice magic in the wall, but it isn't the craziest thing right?

Not crazy at all. Dragonglass and Dragon Steel seems to have unique interactions with Ice Magic. Why not Dragon flame.

[princess_snow]

12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I always leaned more to the idea he first tried to rid himself of a son and heir who could one day grow to contest his arrangements with his daughters/wives and it stemmed from there. I'm not sure it was a planned deal with the Others from the get go, but it certainly grew to be one.

Yeah this makes a lot of sense actually.

[Duncan_The_Short]

6 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Yes, and Valyrians, as a slaving culture, wouldn't even have needed to hold westeros. Just going there and rounding up slaves would have been easy and good business. There had to be a serious reason they didn't

Actually, I always assumed that the Valyrians did make slave raids into Westeros and that was the reason that slavery was so strongly prohibited there.   But since AHoW makes no mention of it, I guess it didn't occur.

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, tugela said:

I would guess that he is leaving the babies as sacrifices to the gods, not specifically for the white walkers. Normally they would be taken by wolves, but I guess the WW realized that he was doing this, so starting taking the babies for their own purposes instead. Craster may not actually know what happens to the babies. If he did, you would think that his daughters would also know. But if Gilly knows, she is being very quite about it.

Craster and All the daughters/wives know exactly what is happening by the time the story reaches Crastets keep and likely known for a long time before that. 

Gilly is far from quiet about it, she gives Jon a full on detailed account of Crasters gods collecting the sons and they are white shadows with icy blue eyes. The Others basically. And if a young girl knows, then everybody knows. 

Also one of the other wives later tells Sam the brothers will soon arrive for the boy, Crasters sons will come. She also knows what's been happening to the boys and even goes as far as to assume the boys are turning into these creatures and coming back to claim their brother to add to their numbers.

Basically, they all know exactly what's going on, including Craster. 

[Macgregor of the North]

7 hours ago, Duncan_The_Short said:

And since Valyrian Steel is the only known metal that is deadly to the WW it makes since that Dragonfire is what makes it so.

Of course the books will go this route I agree, but it's not confirmed yet, only confirmed in the other version of the story that appears on the animated screen most people keep in their homes. 

It will happen though for sure and it makes perfect sense it's the Dragonflame forging that is the main ingredient that will do the Others serious harm.

[Duncan_The_Short]

11 hours ago, Duncan_The_Short said:

But since AHoW makes no mention of it

Please forgive the nonsensical reference I had a brain fart and forgot the name of AWoIaF and thought it was A History of Westeros.  Apologies

[House Beaudreau]

I think the others are a lot like men. They are chasing a stupid prophecy... The Long Night. It no different then the price that was promised or the stallion that mounts the world. 

[Maia]

 

On 7.7.2016 at 0:30 AM, tugela said:

The problem with them allways being there is that they vanished for thousands of years, only to reappear now for no apparent reason. Man had already moved beyond the wall ages ago, so if the wall was there to keep the two sides apart you would have thought that the others would have been decimating the wildlings over all that time.

 

NW and people south of the Wall thought that they have vanished. Meanwhile, per TWoIAF some tribes of the Frozen Shore have been worshipping "gods of snow and ice", who are pretty clearly the Others for ages, Craster has been sacrificing his baby sons to them for 3 decades or so, and IIRC there is a mention of a sighting by the rangers a few centuries ago, which was, ofcourse, disbelieved, somewhere in the series. Oh, and the wildlings are religious about burning their dead for some reason - something that nobody south of the Wall normally does, except for Targaryens.   From Coldhands in ADwD we also learned that the Others are great at camouflage, so people don't usually see them unless they want to be seen. And according to Leaf, Coldhands was killed by the Others "long ago". There is the Night's King's story as well. So, yea, all in all there is a growing amount of evidence that the Others weren't really gone all this time, just discreet. 

 

Quote

So why now? The most reasonable conclusion is that the current crop of white walkers did not exist until fairly recently, and that means that someone had to have been making them for some unknown reason.

 

No, IMHO the most reasonable conclusion is that they kept track of signs foreshadowing the impending Long Night better than humans and possibly even the CoTF and that now that it is imminent, they are preparing to take the best advantage of it. Increasing their numbers may be one of ways that they are doing it, or maybe what we see is just more of their numbers coming south from their usual haunts beyond the polar circle. 

Re: Mance, yes, I am sure that his host wasn't seriously attacked, just nipped on the edges here and there, on purpose. They were intended as a battering ram that would punch through the Wall and allow the Others to follow. That is why the wildlings weren't eradicated, but terrorrized into organizing  and herded towards the Wall.  Only, it didn't work. Or maybe didn't work entirely, because who knows what those tribesmen from the Frozen Shore, who were part of the Tormund's group smuggled through when they crossed over? If wights can be brought through the Wall and remain fully operational, the Others likely can be, too.

I agree that Jon was somewhat too trusting of the wildlings and that Mance may have plans of his own, but he is no Rhaegar - after all, men of NW remember him growing up from a young boy. And his presence didn't provoke the Others into anything, on the contrary, their  increased activity is the reason why he felt  that he had to unite the wildlings and strike south.

 

On 7.7.2016 at 2:19 AM, Muggle said:

Perhaps the Gods Eye more specifically the Isle of Faces. That place hold a lot of interest for me as a reader. Some people think that's where the rituals for the Hammer of the Gods was preformed. Also the Andals were never able to conquer the island and the "Green Men". Something special is going on there.

I can only speculate but I would think if the others are in fact intelligent with goals, hopes, and dreams. This place would be of interest to them. Maybe enough to go to war. 

 

Indeed. I am sure that there is a reason why the rituals were performed there and why magical protections held there against the Andals, when they ultimately didn't anywhere else. We know from Melisandre and TWoIaF that there are places in the world where magic is more powerful than elsewhere. And that's why the Others want to reach it, IMHO, and to perform their own ritual there. Something that would allow them to transform the climate in Westeros and on Planetos as a whole into something more congenial to themselves, maybe? Maybe something that would make the Long Night a permanent condition, if they are indeed OK with all other higher life dying out. Of course, we don't know if LN is really a period of total darkness, it could be more like perpetual twilight, with no direct sunlight. In this case, something might still survive in the warmest regions...  

 

 

[Victor Newman]

On 7/6/2016 at 2:29 PM, BricksAndSparrows said:

The general assumption is that the Others mean to cross the Wall, or bring it down, but is there any indication of what they want?

The main reason I ask is, if we don't even know what they want south of the Wall, it may be premature to assume that their recent increase in activity is an indication of Southern intentions.

The Others just want to fulfill their purpose, to get rid of the First Men.  It just so happens the First Men are on the other side of the wall. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

On 7/9/2016 at 1:42 PM, Take Me 2 Your Leader said:

The Others just want to fulfill their purpose, to get rid of the First Men.  It just so happens the First Men are on the other side of the wall. 

But why is that their "purpose?" I'm not trying to be facetious.

My position is that the "mystery" of the Others extends beyond their origin. We don't yet know their intentions or motivations. Not completely anyway.

[tugela]

Their purpose, in the sense of what motivates them, is going to be the same as anyone else's, which is to say that their lands have been invaded and they want to throw the invaders out. They would be like aboriginal tribes, fighting back with the tools at their disposal.

The reason for them being active now and not before will have to do with the peace that was brokered 8 thousand years ago, and what is happening now that could threaten it. Specifically, someone is doing something different that they perceive as upending the status quo. The only obvious thing of that nature that we can see is Mance Raydars efforts to unite the wildlings so that he can take them south. It would be similar to the plains Indians uprising when prospectors found gold in the Black hills and started moving in. They did not know why, or really understand why, all they knew was that shit was going down that they didn't like and that something was going to be stolen from them as a result. Mance has his own agenda, and it likely has nothing to do with the others, but they see whatever he is doing as a threat. Their reaction to that in turn has prompted a reaction from the Nights Watch, who don't understand the others, or know anything about them. The wildings are known to them however, and are not too dissimilar, so they react as any human would, siding with the known and fighting the unknown irrespective of right and wrong, even though the source of all their problems are actually the "good guys". That is what I meant earlier as this being Martins social commentary on the politics of fear. Jon doesn't know what the others want, or anything about them for that matter, so he reacts based on the myths and stories told about events that happened 8 thousand years ago. Myths and stories which are probably grossly inaccurate.

Just remember, while Jon and co don't understand what the others are doing, the others equally likely don't understand what he (and Mance, for that matter) are doing either, so they react to Jon and the NW as though they are just more of Mance's people. Both sides fight because of deep cultural ignorance of each other. Both think that they are right and good, and that the other side is evil and wrong. So they kill each other out of fear of the darkness, with the darkness being each other.

[Anthony Pirtle]

A winter to last forever? The death of Men? A beach house in Dorne? Who knows?

[MinotaurWarrior]

34 minutes ago, tugela said:

Their purpose, in the sense of what motivates them, is going to be the same as anyone else's, which is to say that their lands have been invaded and they want to throw the invaders out. They would be like aboriginal tribes, fighting back with the tools at their disposal.

The reason for them being active now and not before will have to do with the peace that was brokered 8 thousand years ago, and what is happening now that could threaten it. Specifically, someone is doing something different that they perceive as upending the status quo. The only obvious thing of that nature that we can see is Mance Raydars efforts to unite the wildlings so that he can take them south. It would be similar to the plains Indians uprising when prospectors found gold in the Black hills and started moving in. They did not know why, or really understand why, all they knew was that shit was going down that they didn't like and that something was going to be stolen from them as a result. Mance has his own agenda, and it likely has nothing to do with the others, but they see whatever he is doing as a threat. Their reaction to that in turn has prompted a reaction from the Nights Watch, who don't understand the others, or know anything about them. The wildings are known to them however, and are not too dissimilar, so they react as any human would, siding with the known and fighting the unknown irrespective of right and wrong, even though the source of all their problems are actually the "good guys". That is what I meant earlier as this being Martins social commentary on the politics of fear. Jon doesn't know what the others want, or anything about them for that matter, so he reacts based on the myths and stories told about events that happened 8 thousand years ago. Myths and stories which are probably grossly inaccurate.

Just remember, while Jon and co don't understand what the others are doing, the others equally likely don't understand what he (and Mance, for that matter) are doing either, so they react to Jon and the NW as though they are just more of Mance's people. Both sides fight because of deep cultural ignorance of each other. Both think that they are right and good, and that the other side is evil and wrong. So they kill each other out of fear of the darkness, with the darkness being each other.

I think another obvious thing is that this has been the longest warm period in the history of the world, in a world where GRRM has confirmed the seasons are magic and that their funkiness will be explained, and where we know of at least two religions that actively seek to bring about an eternal summer.