How could Corlys Velaryon dispute Viserys' right to rule?

[Valens]

It is said he wanted his son Laenor to rule, since his mother was a Targaryen. But how is this possible? As far as I know, their laws are such that someone who is descended from the Targaryen dynasty on his male side always has a stronger claim than one from a female line. Was this simply old Sea Snake getting ahead of himself?

[Starfell]

Well, bear in mind that there had been exactly 2 successions and a usurption - or arguably one succession and two usurptions - by the time that Laenor was being considered, the "rules" (and I use the term loosely because they're actually a set of customs and are shown to be pretty malleable) were unclear because there had never been a test case. Both Maegor and Jaehaerys ascended under atypical conditions, and while there were female claimants who might have challenged Jaehaerys, he was the head of the anti-Maegor coalition and thus best placed to take the throne. Moreover, Aerea and Rhalla would have been children who couldn't have pressed their own claim. And that's assuming that they were still alive, both twins literally just vanish from the pages of history almost as soon as they were born, and their mother is never mentioned after she escaped from Maegor; however, she would have been after Jaehaerys anyway under any non-Rhoynish system of inheritance.

We can be almost certain that the laws of succession were never codified because if they were it would have been mentioned at one of the numerous later succession crises, thus, they remained nebulous and open to interpretation far more so than written ones might have done.

Moreover, Rhaenys had been the eldest daughter of the Crown Prince, under Andal tradition, she would have been ahead of Viserys (we have numerous cases in Andal and First Man cultures of daughters coming ahead of uncles or male cousins in succession), and she'd had Queen Alysanne's backing when Aemon died. Plus, it's likely that the prospect of instability caused by the throne passing from House to House down the distaff line influenced Jaehaerys to choose a path he thought would guarantee dynastic continuity

So Corlys' best plan of action in defense of his wife's claim is to produce a male claimant of his own, which he did, in the hope that he could convince the largely Andal lords, to follow Laenor based, presumably, on the argument that he should supercede Viserys going by their own laws and customs, and that as a man he could continue the dynasty.

Laenor Velaryon, and his mother, were both actually incredibly dangerous to Baelon's sons from a dynastic point of view because they hail from a spear branch of House Targaryen which is more senior to their own and have a very strong claim that the throne should be theirs by all the laws of the land.

[Shireen Purratheon]

Everything @Starfell said. At this point, there was no Targaryen succession precedent about the throne not passing to a female or through the female line. It would have been very easily argued to say the crown should pass through regular Andal inheritance to the daughter or grandson before the brother or niece/nephew.

But imagine if Corlys Sea Snake Velaryon were king consort, and Alyn Oakenfist got to be king someday. That'd be a cool alternate history.

[M_Tootles]

I got really confused for a second when I saw this topic since I'm convinced Dany's "brother" Viserys is Rhaella's son via Master of Ships Lucerys Velaryon. (see: "less than the shadow of snake" and Rhaella reacting to Aerys spitting out bastards left and right via highborn ladies [jaime, cersei, 1/2 tyrion, oberyn])

But yeah, what he said.

[Lion of the West]

I'd say that Corlys support for Rhaenys is a good indication that he had a sense of honor and its a credit to Lord Velaryon that he did support Rhaenys whom I think should have gained the Iron Throne after Jaehaerys the Old King.

[Lord Varys]

@Starfell

Pretty good summary indeed.

One could add that the Great Council of 101 AC actually caused more confusion in the long run considering that Viserys I only could take the throne at the expense of dismissing not only the claims of females but also all the female lines. That was a major blow to the monarchy in itself because (if that rigid interpretation would be followed in the future) the kings would be completely depend on having sons of their own.

While everybody would have agreed that this was preferable to daughters reality doesn't always give you sons. So kings who are stuck with daughters are then in very precarious positions because their closest male kin (regardless how distant) can, in fact, enforce himself on the king as his heir presumptive until such time as the king has a son of his own.

We see how tenuous Viserys' claim to the Iron Throne was in the simmering succession crisis early on his reign. The Velaryons weren't yet back in the fold, Viserys only had a daughter whose claim had paradoxically been weakened by Viserys' own ascension to the throne, and Viserys' heir presumptive Prince Daemon (at least according to the precedent set by the Great Council) was widely considered to be unfit to rule even by the king himself.

This is what led to Viserys' decision to formally name Rhaenyra his heir apparent and Princess of Dragonstone to establish some sort of certainty about the succession. And then he was stuck with this thing.

Perhaps it would have been smarter to betroth Laenor to Rhaenyra and name him Prince of Dragonstone in Rhaenyra's place to restore the elder line of Aemon to its proper place.

In hindsight it seems that Viserys I was stupid to not name Aegon his heir but the point is that the Velaryons were the major power in Westeros in that age, controlling the largest living dragon. Nobody at this point in time seems to have thought they had given up their designs to eventually retake the throne for their line. Which is why they eventually supported Rhaenyra's claim. Laenor's legal son would eventually succeed her with their granddaughter Baela at his side, eventually followed by Corlys and Rhaenys' great-grandson of that union. Not to mention that the Iron Throne would pass from House Targaryen to House Velaryon.

[Ser Leftwich]

Wasn't Corlys Velaryon the most powerful man in the realm? His backing could influence the lords of the land.

[Lion of the West]

36 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Wasn't Corlys Velaryon the most powerful man in the realm? His backing could influence the lords of the land.

I don't think he ever was the most powerful man in the realm, but he certainly was among the more powerful and seems to have wielded more influence than many Lords Paramount during his life.

[Masha]

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I'd say that Corlys support for Rhaenys is a good indication that he had a sense of honor and its a credit to Lord Velaryon that he did support Rhaenys whom I think should have gained the Iron Throne after Jaehaerys the Old King.

What this has got to do with his honor? Its was a pure self-interest and nepotism from his side. He was married to her after all! And Laenor was his son! Furthermore, if you meant Rhaenara, he only supported her because she was married to his son and her children were supposedly his grandchildren!!!

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Starfell

Pretty good summary indeed.

One could add that the Great Council of 101 AC actually caused more confusion in the long run considering that Viserys I only could take the throne at the expense of dismissing not only the claims of females but also all the female lines. That was a major blow to the monarchy in itself because (if that rigid interpretation would be followed in the future) the kings would be completely depend on having sons of their own.

While everybody would have agreed that this was preferable to daughters reality doesn't always give you sons. So kings who are stuck with daughters are then in very precarious positions because their closest male kin (regardless how distant) can, in fact, enforce himself on the king as his heir presumptive until such time as the king has a son of his own.

We see how tenuous Viserys' claim to the Iron Throne was in the simmering succession crisis early on his reign. The Velaryons weren't yet back in the fold, Viserys only had a daughter whose claim had paradoxically been weakened by Viserys' own ascension to the throne, and Viserys' heir presumptive Prince Daemon (at least according to the precedent set by the Great Council) was widely considered to be unfit to rule even by the king himself.

This is what led to Viserys' decision to formally name Rhaenyra his heir apparent and Princess of Dragonstone to establish some sort of certainty about the succession. And then he was stuck with this thing.

Perhaps it would have been smarter to betroth Laenor to Rhaenyra and name him Prince of Dragonstone in Rhaenyra's place to restore the elder line of Aemon to its proper place.

In hindsight it seems that Viserys I was stupid to not name Aegon his heir but the point is that the Velaryons were the major power in Westeros in that age, controlling the largest living dragon. Nobody at this point in time seems to have thought they had given up their designs to eventually retake the throne for their line. Which is why they eventually supported Rhaenyra's claim. Laenor's legal son would eventually succeed her with their granddaughter Baela at his side, eventually followed by Corlys and Rhaenys' great-grandson of that union. Not to mention that the Iron Throne would pass from House Targaryen to House Velaryon.

Laenor had no biological children at all.

Rhaenara's 3 oldest children were obviously bastards from Harwin Strong. And so-called newly discovered Laenor's natural sons Alyn and Addam? that were oh-so-conveniently discovered by Corlys, were actually Corlys' own bastards not his grandchildren. Corlys claimed this in order to placate Rhaenys, his wife, who BTW never liked them and believed him.

[Starfell]

4 hours ago, Masha said:

 

Laenor had no biological children at all.

Rhaenara's 3 oldest children were obviously bastards from Harwin Strong. And so-called newly discovered Laenor's natural sons Alyn and Addam? that were oh-so-conveniently discovered by Corlys, were actually Corlys' own bastards not his grandchildren. Corlys claimed this in order to placate Rhaenys, his wife, who BTW never liked them and believed him.

I think that the point is that through Rhaenyra, Corlys gets to put Laenor's legal issue on the throne, and Laena's biological issue. Corlys and Rhaenys' descendants still end up with the throne, just a generation later than the offical story says they do.

[Lion of the West]

11 hours ago, Masha said:

What this has got to do with his honor? Its was a pure self-interest and nepotism from his side. He was married to her after all! And Laenor was his son! Furthermore, if you meant Rhaenara, he only supported her because she was married to his son and her children were supposedly his grandchildren!!!

What I meant was that in at least one scramble for power he went to the camp with in the right, but I agree that he seems to have been mostly motivated by his family. But then again, is not supporting your family honorable? I think it is.

Also you should know that I am not a fan of Rhaenyra or her Blacks, so that wasn't what I was refering to.

[Jaak]

On 7.7.2016 at 4:23 AM, Shireen Purratheon said:

Everything @Starfell said. At this point, there was no Targaryen succession precedent about the throne not passing to a female or through the female line.

Except the mysterious Rhalla and Aerea.

Jaehaerys could have wrapped up that claim by marrying his niece. Instead, he chose to marry his sister.

But for some reason, this was not regarded as a binding precedent: Alysanne, herself a beneficiary of her brother's usurpation, championed her granddaughter over her son.

[Valens]

17 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I don't think he ever was the most powerful man in the realm, but he certainly was among the more powerful and seems to have wielded more influence than many Lords Paramount during his life.

I think it is possible that Velaryons were once more powerful than Targaryens-in Valyria. But never in Westeros.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Valens said:

I think it is possible that Velaryons were once more powerful than Targaryens-in Valyria. But never in Westeros.

I doubt it. The Velaryons were never a dragon Lord family and had settled on the edge of the Valyrian territories (Driftmark) before the Targaryens fled because of the Doom. I always saw them as something like the equivalent to House Manderly/Karstark/Bolton/Umber to House Stark

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, Masha said:

Laenor had no biological children at all.

Possibly, but that was not the point. He had three legal sons and the eldest, Jacaerys Velaryon, was next in line to the Iron Throne after Rhaenyra.

16 hours ago, Masha said:

Rhaenara's 3 oldest children were obviously bastards from Harwin Strong. And so-called newly discovered Laenor's natural sons Alyn and Addam? that were oh-so-conveniently discovered by Corlys, were actually Corlys' own bastards not his grandchildren. Corlys claimed this in order to placate Rhaenys, his wife, who BTW never liked them and believed him.

You are confused here. Addam and Alyn of Hull were only recognized and legitimized as Laenor Velaryon's bastards after the death of Princess Rhaenys. In fact, it is quite obvious that Corlys Velaryon dared not to ever acknowledge them as his sons because he feared the wrath of his dragonriding wife. Now, those children were legitimized as Laenor's was a way to make Rhaenyra's sons look more legitimate (if Laenor had fathered bastards he could also have fathered Rhaenyra's sons, right?) as well as give Corlys some heirs of his body as heirs to Driftmark. The man had just lost his wife and Jace had lost his brother Lucerys. Winning the Iron Throne for Rhaenyra was more important than securing Driftmark for her younger children (both Addam and Alyn were older than Joffrey Velaryon, so they could actually have come before Joff in the succession to Driftmark as his now fully legitimized half-brothers).

11 hours ago, Starfell said:

I think that the point is that through Rhaenyra, Corlys gets to put Laenor's legal issue on the throne, and Laena's biological issue. Corlys and Rhaenys' descendants still end up with the throne, just a generation later than the offical story says they do.

Yeah, that's the point. Thanks to their marriage alliance first with Rhaenyra via Laenor and then due to the betrothals of Jace-Baela and Luke-Rhaena both the Iron Throne and Driftmark would first pass to a legal Velaryon and then eventually to a biological descendant of Corlys Velaryon and Rhaenys Targaryen.

Backing Alicent's brood wouldn't have helped the elder Targaryen-Velaryon line at all. And one doesn't need much imagination to assume that the loss of Vhagar to Aemond did not just vex Rhaenyra's sons - it would also have pissed of Corlys and Rhaenys.

[Valens]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Possibly, but that was not the point. He had three legal sons and the eldest, Jacaerys Velaryon, was next in line to the Iron Throne after Rhaenyra.

You are confused here. Addam and Alyn of Hull were only recognized and legitimized as Laenor Velaryon's bastards after the death of Princess Rhaenys. In fact, it is quite obvious that Corlys Velaryon dared not to ever acknowledge them as his sons because he feared the wrath of his dragonriding wife. Now, those children were legitimized as Laenor's was a way to make Rhaenyra's sons look more legitimate (if Laenor had fathered bastards he could also have fathered Rhaenyra's sons, right?) as well as give Corlys some heirs of his body as heirs to Driftmark. The man had just lost his wife and Jace had lost his brother Lucerys. Winning the Iron Throne for Rhaenyra was more important than securing Driftmark for her younger children (both Addam and Alyn were older than Joffrey Velaryon, so they could actually have come before Joff in the succession to Driftmark as his now fully legitimized half-brothers).

Yeah, that's the point. Thanks to their marriage alliance first with Rhaenyra via Laenor and then due to the betrothals of Jace-Baela and Luke-Rhaena both the Iron Throne and Driftmark would first pass to a legal Velaryon and then eventually to a biological descendant of Corlys Velaryon and Rhaenys Targaryen.

Backing Alicent's brood wouldn't have helped the elder Targaryen-Velaryon line at all. And one doesn't need much imagination to assume that the loss of Vhagar to Aemond did not just vex Rhaenyra's sons - it would also have pissed of Corlys and Rhaenys.

I can just imagine how the Velaryons felt about the Hightowers, Alicent and her father. Couldn't have been much affection there. But it seems that having Otto there kind of helped Viserys secure his kingship, in addition to Daemon and his war skills of course.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Valens said:

I can just imagine how the Velaryons felt about the Hightowers, Alicent and her father. Couldn't have been much affection there. But it seems that having Otto there kind of helped Viserys secure his kingship, in addition to Daemon and his war skills of course.

Otto Hightower most likely was the kingmaker of the Great Council. He was the Hand and Jaehaerys I did participate in the final talks. If there was a man who helped secure the votes for Viserys behind the scenes it would have been Otto. Thus there is no surprise that the guy was allowed to stay on as Hand rather than being replaced by, say, one of Viserys' best childhood buddies or something like that.

I mean, if you check this guys twists and turns on his (ultimately futile) quest to secure the ultimate power for himself and his grandchildren then it is quite clear that he quite correctly is remembered as one of the worst Hands in the history of Westeros. The man is the main architect of the Dance of the Dragons. First he made Rhaenyra Princess of Dragonstone and the future queen by pushing her claim against Daemon's (rather than wait and see whether Alicent would give Viserys sons) and then later he pumped and pushed his grandchildren against Rhaenyra and her sons rather than, well, try to keep the Realm together.

[Jaak]

5 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I doubt it. The Velaryons were never a dragon Lord family and had settled on the edge of the Valyrian territories (Driftmark) before the Targaryens fled because of the Doom.

Did they settle on Driftmark before Targaryens, or along with them?

[Valens]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Otto Hightower most likely was the kingmaker of the Great Council. He was the Hand and Jaehaerys I did participate in the final talks. If there was a man who helped secure the votes for Viserys behind the scenes it would have been Otto. Thus there is no surprise that the guy was allowed to stay on as Hand rather than being replaced by, say, one of Viserys' best childhood buddies or something like that.

I mean, if you check this guys twists and turns on his (ultimately futile) quest to secure the ultimate power for himself and his grandchildren then it is quite clear that he quite correctly is remembered as one of the worst Hands in the history of Westeros. The man is the main architect of the Dance of the Dragons. First he made Rhaenyra Princess of Dragonstone and the future queen by pushing her claim against Daemon's (rather than wait and see whether Alicent would give Viserys sons) and then later he pumped and pushed his grandchildren against Rhaenyra and her sons rather than, well, try to keep the Realm together.

Yeah, I hate him. Power hungry bastard. And what irritates me is that he often succeeded in persuading Viserys to deprive Daemon of his functions. Ok, perhaps he wasn't that good in all of them, but Viserys should have done that by himself. It is clear he didn't want Daemon too near the king and that is quite impertinent since he was the king's brother. But Daemon got his vengeance in the end, didn't he.

[Lion of the West]

17 minutes ago, Valens said:

Yeah, I hate him. Power hungry bastard. And what irritates me is that he often succeeded in persuading Viserys to deprive Daemon of his functions. Ok, perhaps he wasn't that good in all of them, but Viserys should have done that by himself. It is clear he didn't want Daemon too near the king and that is quite impertinent since he was the king's brother. But Daemon got his vengeance in the end, didn't he.

I fail to see why he was power hungry. All I can see is that feud between him and Daemon and a desperate need for Otto to keep Daemon from the throne. Daemon wasn't a kind and forgiving person and so if he got power odds are that he would take Otto down hard for the reason that he didn't like Otto. At no point do I see power being his goal but a means to keep his head on and reacting to Daemon's schemes and ebbs and flows at court.

And remember that Viserys was the one to take away Daemon's positions at court as I recall, and the one to send Daemon into exile following the "heir for a day" joke. Even if Otto suggested that Daemon be removed, it was still Viserys who took the decision and people are responsible for what they do, you can't pin it on someone else.

But yes, Daemon did get his revenge, so I suppose the Seven were not looking.