Ser Kinslayer Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Upon reading AFfC, I noticed this line dropped by Jaime right after he reprimanded Ser Ryman Frey for his incompetence: "Jaime turned from Ser Ryman to his son. 'Edwyn, I am giving you your father's command. Try not to be so stupid as your sire.' 'That ought not pose much difficulty my lord.' 'Send word to Lord Walder. The crown requires all his prisoners.' Jaime waved his golden hand." Upon reading this, I immediately thought "will the Great Jon be released?!?!?!?!" However, now I'm having second thoughts. Will Walder Frey adhere to Jaime's will? If he does, what impact will this have of the prisoners released from the dungeons beneath the Twins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 11 minutes ago, Ser Kinslayer said: Upon reading AFfC, I noticed this line dropped by Jaime right after he reprimanded Ser Ryman Frey for his incompetence: "Jaime turned from Ser Ryman to his son. 'Edwyn, I am giving you your father's command. Try not to be so stupid as your sire.' 'That ought not pose much difficulty my lord.' 'Send word to Lord Walder. The crown requires all his prisoners.' Jaime waved his golden hand." Upon reading this, I immediately thought "will the Great Jon be released?!?!?!?!" However, now I'm having second thoughts. Will Walder Frey adhere to Jaime's will? If he does, what impact will this have of the prisoners released from the dungeons beneath the Twins? Walder can not defy Jaime because he is Lord Commander or KG, seats in Small Council, is uncle to King, brother to Queen Mother and soon to be Queen Regent and if rumours are true he is actually father of a King, too big risk. And he did give Edmure (his most important hostage) and Roslin to Jaime so I dont see him oposing to this descision. So Lannisters will soon have Marq, Greatjon and already have Harion Karatark, it will be interesting to see what impact will they have. Harion can be used to opose Alys and Sigorn as rightful lord and I guess intention is to return Greatjon for loyal service of Whoresbane, same with Piper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Without a doubt, GRRM was setting something up with Jaime's request. Edmure and Jeyne on their way to the Rock, the Red Wedding prisoners released into Lannister custody and then - what? A rescue mission? Or maybe a botched, fatal rescue mission? Or will they all reach Casterly Rock unmolested - and if so, then what happens there? Because "the Greatjon was safely locked up at the Twins, and now he's safely locked up under Casterly Rock, the end" would be an anticlimactic filler, and I doubt George would waste time writing that down. Anyway, many paths open. It's a real shame that we've been waiting eleven years, and counting, for the resolution of that cliffhanger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I don't think those prisoners would be taken to Casterly Rock. There are plenty of closer places to stash prisoners until terms can be worked out. I think the important thing to Jaime is to make sure Walder's leverage is reduced as much as possible. Bonifer Hasty can hold them in Harrenhall for the time being. This might just be setting up things to go down in the Twins without dangling threads of important prisoners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 The prisoners are to be sent to court. That is where Jaime intends to take Hoster Blackwood in ADwD, and also the place where Jonos Bracken is supposed to send his daughter. Most likely they will never get there, though. There will be rescue mission/attack on the Lannister men under Ser Forley Prester who are escorting Jeyne Westerling, Sybell Spicer, and Edmure and Roslin to Casterly Rock. We know that Jeyne Westerling is going to show up in the Prologue. And the POV is going to die, of course. But we don't know who that is. If Forley is prepared to execute Jaime's orders in an attack then everybody might die. We'll have to wait and see. I think Edmure has a reasonably good chance of getting through. You sort of get the sense that he has come into his own at the end of AFfC. The prisoners coming from the Twins might be all freed either by Riverlords or by Catelyn's people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf of the Steppes Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 This subject has always intrigued me. We know that Tom 'O Sevens is aware of the plan, so it's most likely that the Brotherhood and Lady Stoneheart will disrupt the journey from the Twins to King's Landing. A more shrouded mystery, but I also think it likely that the Blackfish will be with them. 28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The prisoners are to be sent to court. That is where Jaime intends to take Hoster Blackwood in ADwD, and also the place where Jonos Bracken is supposed to send his daughter. Most likely they will never get there, though. There will be rescue mission/attack on the Lannister men under Ser Forley Prester who are escorting Jeyne Westerling, Sybell Spicer, and Edmure and Roslin to Casterly Rock. We know that Jeyne Westerling is going to show up in the Prologue. And the POV is going to die, of course. But we don't know who that is. If Forley is prepared to execute Jaime's orders in an attack then everybody might die. We'll have to wait and see. I think Edmure has a reasonably good chance of getting through. You sort of get the sense that he has come into his own at the end of AFfC. The prisoners coming from the Twins might be all freed either by Riverlords or by Catelyn's people. Well said. However, Edmure has always been the plot's favorite whipping boy, and I think it more likely that he remains a tragic figure despite his good intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 1 hour ago, CJ McLannister said: I think the important thing to Jaime is to make sure Walder's leverage is reduced as much as possible. this is exactly right. It is very important for Jamie to make sure there is a very clear line of power between him and Walder Frey and that Jamie is on the top of that line. This isn't to say he can just screw Walder over every 5 minutes. But if he is smart he will make sure that Lord Walder gets enough from Jamie to keep his prickly ego in check while, simultaneously, knowing that Jamie is the one with the power in their relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Wolf of the Steppes said: Well said. However, Edmure has always been the plot's favorite whipping boy, and I think it more likely that he remains a tragic figure despite his good intentions. I'm not sure George would waste pages on this thing - especially not in a Prologue - if the Edmure plot was going nowhere. Jeyne and Sybell are much more likely to die simply because Catelyn must by now know/suspect that there were in on the Red Wedding plot or at least part of Tywin Lannister's schemes. Jeyne and Sybell are not likely to contribute much to the plot but Edmure could. His reunion with Catelyn could be very interesting indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I'm sure Catelyn/Stonheart would still just treat him like crap and blame him for stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of Onions Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 The worst turn Edmure's story could take is not him getting captured by Lady Stoneheart. The worst that could happen to him would be if his wife and newborn child are captured by Stoneheart on their way to join him at Casterly Rock, after he surrendered Riverrun to keep them safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 There will be a prison break where the Greatjon is Unchained, becoming his sigil. Then the RW survivors will probably rebel against Lady Stonehearts plan to massacre Daven Lannister's wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Breath Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 15 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The prisoners are to be sent to court. That is where Jaime intends to take Hoster Blackwood in ADwD, and also the place where Jonos Bracken is supposed to send his daughter. Most likely they will never get there, though. There will be rescue mission/attack on the Lannister men under Ser Forley Prester who are escorting Jeyne Westerling, Sybell Spicer, and Edmure and Roslin to Casterly Rock. We know that Jeyne Westerling is going to show up in the Prologue. And the POV is going to die, of course. But we don't know who that is. If Forley is prepared to execute Jaime's orders in an attack then everybody might die. We'll have to wait and see. I think Edmure has a reasonably good chance of getting through. You sort of get the sense that he has come into his own at the end of AFfC. The prisoners coming from the Twins might be all freed either by Riverlords or by Catelyn's people. How do we know Jeyne Westerling will show up in the Prolog? Also, there is a theory that the Jeyne Westerling Jamie sees at Riverrun in tFoC is not the real Jeyne. Earlier Catelyen complements Jeyne on having good, wide, childbearing hips. This is mentioned multiple times, I think. Yet Jamie notes Jeyne's narrow hips, in addition to her weepiness, awkwardness, and childlike appearance. The contradiction could be nothing, or could be some other puzzle we look forward to. As to attacking a prisoner's escort, remember we still have a 1000 wolf strong wolfpack... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Mertyns Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 39 minutes ago, Winter's Breath said: How do we know Jeyne Westerling will show up in the Prolog? Also, there is a theory that the Jeyne Westerling Jamie sees at Riverrun in tFoC is not the real Jeyne. Earlier Catelyen complements Jeyne on having good, wide, childbearing hips. This is mentioned multiple times, I think. Yet Jamie notes Jeyne's narrow hips, in addition to her weepiness, awkwardness, and childlike appearance. The contradiction could be nothing, or could be some other puzzle we look forward to. As to attacking a prisoner's escort, remember we still have a 1000 wolf strong wolfpack... That theory is based on an inconsistency that has since been fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular John Umber Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Michael Mertyns said: That theory is based on an inconsistency that has since been fixed. In what way was it fixed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Mertyns Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 7 minutes ago, Regular John Umber said: In what way was it fixed? IIRC, translations do not have the reference. Here is a picture of the passage in English with the reference removed. http://imgur.com/pYnqxeN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular John Umber Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Michael Mertyns said: IIRC, translations do not have the reference. Here is a picture of the passage in English with the reference removed. http://imgur.com/pYnqxeN Can't believe I hadn't seen that. Bookmarked for future nitpick sessions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 6 hours ago, Winter's Breath said: How do we know Jeyne Westerling will show up in the Prolog? Because George has said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Kinslayer Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 8 hours ago, Winter's Breath said: How do we know Jeyne Westerling will show up in the Prolog? Also, there is a theory that the Jeyne Westerling Jamie sees at Riverrun in tFoC is not the real Jeyne. Earlier Catelyen complements Jeyne on having good, wide, childbearing hips. This is mentioned multiple times, I think. Yet Jamie notes Jeyne's narrow hips, in addition to her weepiness, awkwardness, and childlike appearance. The contradiction could be nothing, or could be some other puzzle we look forward to. As to attacking a prisoner's escort, remember we still have a 1000 wolf strong wolfpack... Well I certainly can't wait to see her appear in the prologue! Anyways, I'm familiar with this theory as well. But I'm convinced that the Jeyne Westerling Jaime meets inside Riverrun castle is the real Jeyne. She appears distraught and depressed, and when Jaime asks her if she's pregnant with Rob's child she loses her cool and runs out of the room. On the other hand, it could just be an act put on by her imposter of a sister. However, I doubt that's the case. On 7/7/2016 at 9:51 PM, Lord Varys said: The prisoners are to be sent to court. That is where Jaime intends to take Hoster Blackwood in ADwD, and also the place where Jonos Bracken is supposed to send his daughter. Most likely they will never get there, though. There will be rescue mission/attack on the Lannister men under Ser Forley Prester who are escorting Jeyne Westerling, Sybell Spicer, and Edmure and Roslin to Casterly Rock. We know that Jeyne Westerling is going to show up in the Prologue. And the POV is going to die, of course. But we don't know who that is. If Forley is prepared to execute Jaime's orders in an attack then everybody might die. We'll have to wait and see. I think Edmure has a reasonably good chance of getting through. You sort of get the sense that he has come into his own at the end of AFfC. The prisoners coming from the Twins might be all freed either by Riverlords or by Catelyn's people. If that's the case, will Lady Stoneheart be present after the ambush? If so, where is Brienne taking Jaime? Can't wait for these questions and more to be answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 42 minutes ago, Ser Kinslayer said: If that's the case, will Lady Stoneheart be present after the ambush? If so, where is Brienne taking Jaime? Can't wait for these questions and more to be answered. I guess Brienne/Jaime won't be there because Riverrun isn't exactly in the same direction as Casterly Rock/the Golden Tooth, so I guess the ambush was organized prior to that. But Catelyn might be there. Whoever captured Jaime at the place where he went with Brienne could easily have not included Catelyn. She might be off to personally deal with the Westerlings and free her brother. But then, it is hard to say. George could tell Jaime's capture through some flashback in the next Jaime or Brienne chapter. But I'd prefer it if we got Jaime's first meeting with Lady Stoneheart in real time rather than flashback. That should shake him to the core... He won't be able to weasel out of that one. It will be either betray your family and help me bring down your aunt and uncle, sister, bastard children or death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Mertyns Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: But I'd prefer it if we got Jaime's first meeting with Lady Stoneheart in real time rather than flashback. That should shake him to the core... That moment represents the capstone (or at least a critical point) for the arcs of Jaime, Brienne, and Lady Stoneheart. I agree that it would be harder to make that satisfying in flashback form Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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