Dothraki vs westerosi infantry

[Tarellen]

Who would win. 50000 westerosi infantry comprising men at arms on foot, pikemen, and archers vs 50000 dothraki. Both are led by average comanders. Who wins?

[Tatheosian]

The westerosi. The dothraki army doesn't have their westerosi counterpart armor and also their arakhs are good against unarmored opponents. So my guss is that a dothraki khalassar would succumb when attacking an westerosi iron wall with raised lances.

[Light a wight tonight]

The only real fighting we've seen Dothraki do is two khalasars beating up a bunch of lamb People. And the only description we have of Westerosi infantry isn't especially flattering. More like conscripted peasants armed with sharpened agricultural implements. So the question is could either side beat the other?

 

[Tarellen]

2 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

The only real fighting we've seen Dothraki do is two khalasars beating up a bunch of lamb People. And the only description we have of Westerosi infantry isn't especially flattering. More like conscripted peasants armed with sharpened agricultural implements. So the question is could either side beat the other?

 

A pike isn't a agricultureal implement and the karstarks brought 2000 of them to winterfell.

[Universal Sword Donor]

23 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

The only real fighting we've seen Dothraki do is two khalasars beating up a bunch of lamb People. And the only description we have of Westerosi infantry isn't especially flattering. More like conscripted peasants armed with sharpened agricultural implements. So the question is could either side beat the other?

 

We have *many* descriptions of Westerosi infantry.

But as far as the "conscripted peasant" assertion, that's just wrong. The only thing that comes close to that are the Frey levies who are sent to "winter" in the North and the Tywin's vanguard which is specifically meant to be a trap for a green commander. Everyone else has good armor, good weaponry, and march and maneuver in a well-organized manner in battle. 

If you're gonna throw out septon meribald's speech, he never said which lord summoned them (bc there wasn't one), he's not a fighter, and his description defies pretty much everything we see from POV in the series, the D & E series, and the world book.

[Tarellen]

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

We have *many* descriptions of Westerosi infantry.

But as far as the "conscripted peasant" assertion, that's just wrong. The only thing that comes close to that are the Frey levies who are sent to "winter" in the North and the Tywin's vanguard which is specifically meant to be a trap for a green commander. Everyone else has good armor, good weaponry, and march and maneuver in a well-organized manner in battle. 

If you're gonna throw out septon meribald's speech, he never said which lord summoned them (bc there wasn't one), he's not a fighter, and his description defies pretty much everything we see from POV in the series, the D & E series, and the world book.

Hm so who do you think wins?

[Ser Greenseer]

Westerosi, pikemen and archers would make short work of them.

[Lychnidos]

GRRM really dropped the ball in the realism department, when he made the Dothraki wear no armour, they'll be simply massacred by any army with a good number of missile troops, even before they reach the first line.

[Tarellen]

11 minutes ago, Lychnidos said:

GRRM really dropped the ball in the realism department, when he made the Dothraki wear no armour, they'll be simply massacred by any army with a good number of missile troops, even before they reach the first line.

So does essos suck so bad at war to lose to these guys?

[Universal Sword Donor]

51 minutes ago, Tarellen said:

Hm so who do you think wins?

Dothraki lose running away. The downside is that the horde would just split up and it would take forever to kill them all off. Not dissimilar from why the mountain clans were worried about letting the wildlings through. They'd just "become" roving bands of brigands.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Try 50,000 Dothraki and 5,000 Westerosi infantrymen. Maybe that way there would actually be something resembling a fight. We had this particular fight on page. In Meereen, a bunch of mock Dothraki against a bunch of mock Westerosi. Utter curbstomping. Including the True Scotsman/True khalasar fallacy literally shoved into our faces.

1 hour ago, Tarellen said:

So does essos suck so bad at war to lose to these guys?

Not anymore. The Doom of Valyria wrecked the dragon-based military structure and the Dothraki scavenged, before the Free Cities managed to get their up to standard/an actual military in the first place.

During the last couple centuries, the Free Cities could always wipe out the Dothraki, wouldn't be a problem militarily speaking, but paying for a war to the knife would be way, way, way more expensive than the odd gift.

2 hours ago, Lychnidos said:

GRRM really dropped the ball in the realism department, when he made the Dothraki wear no armour, they'll be simply massacred by any army with a good number of missile troops, even before they reach the first line.

Nope, he very, very carefully crafted the Dothraki legend, based on robbing the entirely defenseless and destroying Bronze Age cultures, but coming up short against basically any military more modern than 1500 BC.

They are robbers, gangmembers, criminals, whatever you wish, not soldiers. And they perform in combat just like modern gangs would.

[Protagoras]

Anything with similiar numbers the westerosi will win.

I would say there need to be 2-3 times more Dothraki for them to have a fighting chance (50/50). The Dothraki is out-teched and their lack of armour will hurt them badly, but there is on the other hand no substitute for numbers.

[fenr1s]

30 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Anything with similiar numbers the westerosi will win.

I would say there need to be 2-3 times more Dothraki for them to have a fighting chance (50/50). The Dothraki is out-teched and their lack of armour will hurt them badly, but there is on the other hand no substitute for numbers.

There is a substitute for numbers its superior firepower, even a thousand longbowmen will be able to loose ten thousands of arrows before the dothraki can close the distance.

Their bows have shorter range and arent very effective against armor, they have no armor of their own and no heavy cavalry.

They have no means to break a spearwall as shown when they were routed by a few thousand Unsullied who were outnumbered atleast five to one.

The only advantage they have is their mobility so they could fight a guerrilla war but that seems to go against their nature.

[Protagoras]

7 hours ago, fenr1s said:

There is a substitute for numbers its superior firepower, even a thousand longbowmen will be able to loose ten thousands of arrows before the dothraki can close the distance.

Their bows have shorter range and arent very effective against armor, they have no armor of their own and no heavy cavalry.

They have no means to break a spearwall as shown when they were routed by a few thousand Unsullied who were outnumbered atleast five to one.

The only advantage they have is their mobility so they could fight a guerrilla war but that seems to go against their nature.

Well, Qohor was a while back and for its specific task (holding a spearwall), I believe Unsullied to be superiour to westerosi infantry. We are also assuming average commanders and I don´t believe for a second that the Khal from Qohor is average. 

At some point you will simply have too many dothraki for the westerosi to handle. Where that point is, I cant say for certain. But you simply can´t fight effectly against a force many times larger than your own.

And I doubt the superiour firepower. Only a part in the westerosy armies are made up by archers whereas it seems every dothraki rider has a shortbow. It should be pretty easy for them (if they have superiour numbers that is) to harass and destroy the westerosi bowman with fast, light cavalry as well as sending ridden units on the westerosi from all directions.

[Lord Vance II]

If even numbers, or even at a disadvantage, the Westerosi would win. But I don't think it's such a write-off as many apparently. They have a high margin of error.

Presumably they would be pulled into a box or circle formation with the Dothraki trying to flank. If they hold the front, the Westerosi are golden, but if a part broke and Dothraki were able to get inside the formation all hell would break loose. 

Also, I think it would be extremely difficult for an average commander to coordinate 50,000 infantry in a pitched battle against 50,000 screamers. Even before a battle, that many infantry would be a slow, cumbersome force to move, and seven help them if the Dothraki got the drop on them. In a battle as massive as the hypothetical, the Westerosi rigid command structure could potentially hurt them too, where the Dothraki seem pretty autonomous once the battle begins (though I suppose that could be a disadvantage too). 

11 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

During the last couple centuries, the Free Cities could always wipe out the Dothraki, wouldn't be a problem militarily speaking, but paying for a war to the knife would be way, way, way more expensive than the odd gift.

The I think the fear factor is part of it too. They know they would probably win, but if they don't, they're royally screwed. Wholesale pillage, destruction and rape. Why risk it?

[Lord Giggles]

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

Well, Qohor was a while back and for its specific task (holding a spearwall), I believe Unsullied to be superiour to westerosi infantry. We are also assuming average commanders and I don´t believe for a second that the Khal from Qohor is average. 

At some point you will simply have too many dothraki for the westerosi to handle. Where that point is, I cant say for certain. But you simply can´t fight effectly against a force many times larger than your own.

And I doubt the superiour firepower. Only a part in the westerosy armies are made up by archers whereas it seems every dothraki rider has a shortbow. It should be pretty easy for them (if they have superiour numbers that is) to harass and destroy the westerosi bowman with fast, light cavalry as well as sending ridden units on the westerosi from all directions.

I beg to differ. I'd say that if 5000 Unsullied came up against 5000 Westerosi pikemen, the Westerosi would win. From what we've seen of Westerosi pikemen, they're well armoured and they don't lack for training and there could well(if the westerosi infantry are in fact retainers) be men amongst their ranks who fought through the War of Ninepenny Kings and definitely men who fought through Robert's Rebellion. Given that we don't hear of many large scale engagements taking place in Essos fought by the Unsullied over the past 50 or so years, I'd say the Westerosi would have the edge in experience. In addition to this the Westerosi infantry seem to have an edge in armour. These two advantages would outweigh the minor advantage the Unsullied have in terms of discipline. 

 

My guess would be that, even if the Dothraki had superior numbers, so long as the Westerosi infantry held their formation they'd be fine. The Dothraki shooting arrows at the Westerosi infantry would be a numbers game. Shoot enough arrows, some of them will get lucky. If you're extremely lucky and you have arrows that are designed to increase your chances of gaining traction on the armour or penetrating the thinnest parts then 1 in every 100 arrows might find  a weak spot and injure a man. The Dothraki have never encountered heavily armour opponents so they wouldn't know where to concentrate their fire and their arrows and bows aren't designed for fighting heavily armoured foes meaning that their arrows might as well not be there. Yes, of course they will get lucky occasionally but not enough to make a difference and they'll run out of arrows eventually. When they do, they'll have to either withdraw or charge. If they withdraw, they're conceding that they've been defeated. If they charge they're going to be cavalry against infantry(never a good idea), what's more light cavalry against heavy infantry meaning that the infantry are going to have the better of it and likely inflict extremely heavy losses on the Dothraki.

 

Their best tactic would be to try and break up the Westerosi formation as, if the Westerosi were spread out and could be picked off a small group at a time, the Dothraki would be able to take them on in small, manageable groups. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Well, Qohor was a while back and for its specific task (holding a spearwall), I believe Unsullied to be superiour to westerosi infantry. We are also assuming average commanders and I don´t believe for a second that the Khal from Qohor is average. 

Morale-wise, maybe. But tactically and equipment-wise, the Unsullied are outdated by two millennia. The sturdy old phalanx of spears the Unsullied use got regularly thrashed by Roman manipels armed with shortswords. Much less actual pikemen, as Westeros features them.

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

At some point you will simply have too many dothraki for the westerosi to handle. Where that point is, I cant say for certain. But you simply can´t fight effectly against a force many times larger than your own.

At some point, you will smply have too many Dothraki to fit onto the battlefield. That's basically the entire reason infantry can stand up to cavalry in the first place, you can have 10-20 infantrymen fighting one cavalryman (and another 20 waiting in the rear), regardless if there are a thousand other cavalrymen stuck behind him or none. They can't get to them.

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

And I doubt the superiour firepower. Only a part in the westerosy armies are made up by archers whereas it seems every dothraki rider has a shortbow. It should be pretty easy for them (if they have superiour numbers that is) to harass and destroy the westerosi bowman with fast, light cavalry as well as sending ridden units on the westerosi from all directions.

Shortbows. With lousy arrows only suited for animals and half-naked Dothraki or Lamb Men in civilian cothing. The Westerosi will kill at 200+ meters, the Dothraki will inconvinience at 50 meters.

22 minutes ago, Lord Giggles said:

Their best tactic would be to try and break up the Westerosi formation as, if the Westerosi were spread out and could be picked off a small group at a time, the Dothraki would be able to take them on in small, manageable groups. 

... of no more than ten members. Just one problem with that: The Westerosi routinely deal with super-heavy cavalry and heavy infantry trying to break them apart. Those troop types were developed specifically for that role. The Dothraki are pretty much the opposite, without viable options to achieve that goal.

[Kaibaman]

1 hour ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Morale-wise, maybe. But tactically and equipment-wise, the Unsullied are outdated by two millennia. The sturdy old phalanx of spears the Unsullied use got regularly thrashed by Roman manipels armed with shortswords. Much less actual pikemen, as Westeros features them.

Yet in the twilight years of their empire the Romans often got thrashed by barbarian tribes who had numerous and far more skilled cavalry than they did. The Huns who were mostly made up of light cavalry with composite bows were able to destroy the far better equipped and better armored Roman infantry on many occasions. And keep in mind the Roman army was a professional military force that could equip its soldiers with good arms and armor. The armies of Westeros on the other hand are mostly just levied peasants who most of the time aren't given very good quality weapons or armor and usually don't have the discipline to withstand a cavalry charge.

1 hour ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

At some point, you will smply have too many Dothraki to fit onto the battlefield. That's basically the entire reason infantry can stand up to cavalry in the first place, you can have 10-20 infantrymen fighting one cavalryman (and another 20 waiting in the rear), regardless if there are a thousand other cavalrymen stuck behind him or none. They can't get to them.

Except the cavalry are far more maneuverable and flexible than infantry. Also large bodies of infantry are only effective most of the time if they're tightly grouped together in organized formations. However a lot of times when a cavalry charge fails if they're being harried by enemy arrows, the infantryman (especially if they're hotblooded and undisciplined) sometimes have a tendency to charge at the enemy thus breaking up their formation and allowing the enemy cavalry to pick them off. Retreat and harry tactics to draw enemy forces away where they became vulnerable was a favorite tactic used by the Mongols.

1 hour ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Shortbows. With lousy arrows only suited for animals and half-naked Dothraki or Lamb Men in civilian cothing. The Westerosi will kill at 200+ meters, the Dothraki will inconvinience at 50 meters.

... of no more than ten members. Just one problem with that: The Westerosi routinely deal with super-heavy cavalry and heavy infantry trying to break them apart. Those troop types were developed specifically for that role. The Dothraki are pretty much the opposite, without viable options to achieve that goal.

 Again most of Westerosi men don't have very good equipment. I'm not saying the majority of them don't, however in such a massive battle you can bet that a lot of them wouldn't be very well equipped to take hits from barrage after barrage of enemy missiles. Also what the Huns used to do against large armies mostly made up of infantry was to first send their horse archers to fire at the enemy. Although the arrows they used weren't really that powerful and couldn't penetrate armor, the archers themselves were very skilled and could aim for parts of the body that weren't so protected. Of course the main purpose of firing at the enemy wasn't to go for the easy kill (although that would be a bonus) but to force the enemy to focus on protecting against incoming fire (such as changing their stance and raising their shields) which would make them vulnerable from a direct cavalry charge that would come next. Yes I agree Westeros are able to deal with direct cavalry charges, but these kinds of tactics are alien to them. 

[daccu65]

I don't think the Dothraki would bother to battle a Westerosi force.  The way I see it, they would use their speed to get what they wanted.  Sure, they could form up about half their men for battle, face off against their Westerosi opponents, then melt away.  In the meantime, the other half of the Dothraki force is using their one advantage...speed...to loot the villages and homesteads the Westerosi are no longer defending.  To me, the Dothraki advantage in battle is their ability to refuse battle, unless they are certain to have an advantage.

Yes, a stand-up battle would see the Westerosi defeat the Dothraki.  However, it would be a foolish Khal to fight a stand-up battle.

 

[Lord Giggles]

1 hour ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

... of no more than ten members. Just one problem with that: The Westerosi routinely deal with super-heavy cavalry and heavy infantry trying to break them apart. Those troop types were developed specifically for that role. The Dothraki are pretty much the opposite, without viable options to achieve that goal.

Yes I know that Westerosi infantry are going to be capable of dealing with such tactics. However, to attempt to break the Westerosi formation is really the only viable option the Dothraki have. 

18 minutes ago, Kaibaman said:

Yet in the twilight years of their empire the Romans often got thrashed by barbarian tribes who had numerous and far more skilled cavalry than they did. The Huns who were mostly made up of light cavalry with composite bows were able to destroy the far better equipped and better armored Roman infantry on many occasions. And keep in mind the Roman army was a professional military force that could equip its soldiers with good arms and armor. The armies of Westeros on the other hand are mostly just levied peasants who most of the time aren't given very good quality weapons or armor and usually don't have the discipline to withstand a cavalry charge.

By the time the Huns showed up the Roman army was no longer the disciplined fighting force it had once been. 1/3 of the "proffessional" army(the Comitatanses) were drawn from amongst the germanic tribes who had settled within the Empire's borders. Discipline was no longer anywhere near what it had been several centuries before, neither was morale and equipment ranged from decent to just barely tolerable. The Roman army when it was called upon to fight the Huns was a far cry from what it had once been. And the cavalry of most of the "barbarian" tribes the Romans fought in the 4th and 5th centuries were more akin to later knights than the Hunnic light cavalry, hence the rise in the amount of heavy cavalry used by the Romans in the Western Empire's twilight years. Another point is that the Huns were not a wholly cavalry force. They also used infantry supplied by the various peoples who were vassals of the Huns.

Westerosi infantry are not levied peasants but rather semi professionals, who are well equipped and likely well motivated. Both myself and E-Ro wrote rather extensive examinations of Westerosi infantry and both came to this conclusion.

18 minutes ago, Kaibaman said:

 Again most of Westerosi men don't have very good equipment. I'm not saying the majority of them don't, however in such a massive battle you can bet that a lot of them wouldn't be very well equipped to take hits from barrage after barrage of enemy missiles. Also what the Huns used to do against large armies mostly made up of infantry was to first send their horse archers to fire at the enemy. Although the arrows they used weren't really that powerful and couldn't penetrate armor, the archers themselves were very skilled and could aim for parts of the body that weren't so protected. Of course the main purpose of firing at the enemy wasn't to go for the easy kill (although that would be a bonus) but to force the enemy to focus on protecting against incoming fire (such as changing their stance and raising their shields) which would make them vulnerable from a direct cavalry charge that would come next. Yes I agree Westeros are able to deal with direct cavalry charges, but these kinds of tactics are alien to them. 

 These kinds of tactics are alien to them that's true. But that doesn't change the fact that in order to aim accurately they'd need to sacrifice their rate of fire and probably get in closer than they'd wish to. And a charge by light cavalry against heavy infantry is never going to end well for the light cavalry. Even if they get the best of it on the charge, the infantry will gain the upper hand in a protracted engagement