Dothraki vs westerosi infantry

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, Kaibaman said:

They do. But as Jorah had pointed out, not even the best knights in the Seven Kingdoms can match the equestrian skills of the Dothraki who essentially grew up in the saddle. And there would be more of them than there are knights in any given battle. 

How much is skill going to matter when your opponent can allow you to strike him with no ill-effects, but he only needs to strike you once to kill you? How much does skill matter when your opponent has a weapon that means you can't even close the distance to strike him in the first place?

17 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

I think you made numerous assumptions..dothraki would surely ride with multiple mounts..mongols could have up to three horses each..the speed and mobility of these armies could not be matched by foot soldiers and was in no way limited by three days..an army of heavy foot soldiers 50k large is a clumsy and slow moving beast...simply avoidingit and forcing it to move without allowing it to establish an entrenched position, would put tremendous pressure on its leaders to feed and maintain its order...westetos is huge and it would be impossible for a foot army to corner or even manipulate the position of the mounted armies...a good dothraki leader would wait until inevitably the foot army begins to unravel under the constant and useless marching fatigues them and saps morale..engage their stretched out marching columns and supply trains with limited forces and deny the foot army any chance to fully engage..

Because it is in westeros, the impetus is on thefoot army to find and destroy the invaders...the dothraki could content themselves simply plundering the land and provoke the westrosi to respond on their terms

And how do 50000 men and 150000 horses support themselves in foreign territory that they don't know and have no allies in? It would be easy for any commander who isn't braindead to lead the Dothraki into a position where they can't escape. And even if they can't, it will be the Dothraki who starve first (having significantly more horses and not being able to use castles etc.). Yes, they'll pillage to survive, but so will the Westerosi. The Westerosi can really on their supply trains, castles and use their local knowledge to plunder more effectively. The Dothraki can do none of those things.

[Jasta11]

On 08/07/2016 at 10:50 AM, Kaibaman said:

Ok perhaps the Huns weren't the best example given that the Romans did begin relying more on barbarian forces to fight against them most of the time. However an even better example I can think of are the Mongols and how they gave the armies of eastern Europe hell in the 13th century. Granted the Mongols were far more versatile than the Huns but like their predecessors they were archers and light cavalry first and foremost. And like the Huns their tactics worked effectively against the armies of Hungry who like the Romans weren't accustomed to their ways of waging wars. 

Also the Mongols have shown that in a protracted battle, light cavalry can take on and defeat large armies of infantry. What the Mongols usually did was send in their cavalry archers to shoot arrows to force the enemy to disperse or go on the defensive, or make a false rout to make the enemy give chance and go out of position, which would be followed by cavalry hitting them once they are out of formation. And the Mongols and Huns did have a form of heavy cavalry. Like the Dothraki they had lancers that specialized in frontal charges. Just because horseman aren't armored doesn't mean they don't count as heavy cavalry.

 

Mongols and Dothraki can barely be compared. One was a highly disciplined fighting force that used every advantage at its disposal; heavy armor, shock cavalry, infantry forces, siege weapons, all that stuff. The other is consistently described as being shirtless thugs with curved swords and bows. The equipment and tactic difference alone is pretty damn major.

Eastern Europe actually held off the Mongols to a degree, anyway. They didn't face the full might of the hordes thanks to Mongol politics, sure, but they weren't swept away by any means.

And Westeros is more advanced than what the Mongols faced, being armies with late medieval tech excluding cannons. Good luck beating armored knights without dedicating weapons and tactics. Crucially, Westeros armies are well led, each region producing acclaimed commanders that used sound strategies and tactics. By contrast, Drogo the greatest Khal ever charges at the head of his forces and is too stupid to apply proper medical care, resulting in his death.

GRRM knows this, I'd bet. Not only do the faux Dothraki lose the mock battle in Meereen to faux knights, but Jorah, who is an average swordsman it seems, handily beats one of Drogo's Bloodriders, who are basically Kingsguard chosen by merit alone, thanks to his armor. It's a gigantic advantage that cannot be dismissed. Even the quilted cloth and mail used by Westeros's rank and file offers far better protection than going shirtless, to say nothing of shields and steel helmets.

[house of dayne]

 

20 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

How much is skill going to matter when your opponent can allow you to strike him with no ill-effects, but he only needs to strike you once to kill you? How much does skill matter when your opponent has a weapon that means you can't even close the distance to strike him in the first place?

And how do 50000 men and 150000 horses support themselves in foreign territory that they don't know and have no allies in? It would be easy for any commander who isn't braindead to lead the Dothraki into a position where they can't escape. And even if they can't, it will be the Dothraki who starve first (having significantly more horses and not being able to use castles etc.). Yes, they'll pillage to survive, but so will the Westerosi. The Westerosi can really on their supply trains, castles and use their local knowledge to plunder more effectively. The Dothraki can do none of those things.

Pillage and steal,thats how...horse nomads can live off their horses for much longer than a foot army..you are assuming an infrastructure that will exist to help the westrosi army but frankly that is beyond the scope of this OP...50k vs 50k, that it and all else is equal..castles, towns,smallfolk, the politics of westeros etc, are all complicating factors that may or may not favour the westrosi

The challenge of feeding and maintaining the morale exists for the foot armies as well...but when a foot army marches, it stretches out and its supply trains lag behind..horse nomads do not have this problem and travelling with an extra 2 horses gives you ready food supply when things get lean..foot soldiers do not

[house of dayne]

Why are we assuming this battle takes place in westeros? The original question makes no mention of this...everyone is quick to give every single advantage to the westrosi while assuming the dothraki have none...50k vs 50k...that it ..all else is equal..the foot army needs to eat and move and no they dont have a support team of westrosi smallfolk feeding them like the tour de france

[Barty]

Firstly Horses refuse to charge a wall of pikes - they are not suicidal. Even with heavy cavalry most charges failed if the infantry did not break and run. Assuming westerosi infantry will not break until something major happens (heavy casualties, leader dying etc) then dothraki horses will veer away everytime they try to charge westerosi lines. Dothraki archers will be a problem since according to Jorah they outrange westerosi bows - but at full range will these arrow be able to pierce armor? Probably not. Im not saying most infantry wear heavy plate but even a shirt of mail will probably stop arrows if they are being fired from 200+ yards away (unless its a long bow). 

If the dothraki enter into the range of westerosi archers then they will die. 

The best use of Dothraki is not to engage enemies head on. They are lightly armored, very good archers with good quality bows and brilliant horsemen. Use them to start battles by peppering the enemy with arrows, then engage enemy infantry with your own infantry, circle the dothraki around the westerosi force using their speed, and fire arrows in the rear of infantry - because of armor this will still not do too much damage (though it will do more damage than firing from the front - cause no shields) but the morale effect will be terrible. Or you can just charge the Dothraki into the enemy rear - this will be devastating since most infantry will run when attacked in the rear (We saw in the battle of the Camps that the extremely well trained Lannister infantry actually held off against Robb's charge from the front but when Tytos Blackwood attacked them in the rear they broke and ran). 

However using this tactic one would have to be careful not to get caught by westerosi cavalry while moving around the infantry - if knights engage the Dothraki then the dothraki are dead. Dothraki might be trained to fight since birth but so are knights and knights have far better equipment. If westerosi cavalry charges then the Dothraki's only tactic should be to run and if possible fire arrows to maybe kill a few horses.

[a bit for joffrey]

dothraki are highly overated

they are, for lack of a better term, 'bullies'

they rely on intimidation based on numbers and reputation. but they choose soft targets. peoples that dont have an army, or people that would rather just pay them off (illyrio stated its just cheaper to do so).  sellsword companies dont fight for any losing side, or really take any risks. they will run or just switch sides as it suits them. and really, how well equipped are the common sellswrod 'soldiers'? we dont know, but i doubt they are as armored or trained as a real soldier ( outside of the leaders).

the one story we have of them fighting a trained, disciplined force, they failed miserably (3000 unsullied turned them away against what, 10-1 odds?) one v one the dothraki are surely firece, but agian, a trained, armored soldier has the advantage.

in a way they arent much different than wildlings, brave and tough for sure, but essentially fodder against actual professional soldiers.

[house of dayne]

Excellent points barty except in this hypothetical battle the westrosi have no cavalry or knights...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

4 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Do they? The OP mentioned men at arms on foot, pikemen, and archers.

My impression of this scenario is that we are talking about a pitched battle between two armies. Not a prolonged Dothraki invasion of Westeros.

Ok, let's assume such a stupid, entirely theoretical matchup.

So what? Then the infantry will stand around, twiddle their thumbs and wait for the Dothraki to make a move. If the Dothraki close to arrow range, they get nice longbow shafts into their unprotected bodies, while their own horsebow shafts plink of Westerosi armor. If they close to melee range, they die even faster.

3 hours ago, Kaibaman said:

They do. But as Jorah had pointed out, not even the best knights in the Seven Kingdoms can match the equestrian skills of the Dothraki who essentially grew up in the saddle. And there would be more of them than there are knights in any given battle. 

Yeah, what's the difference between somebody essentially growing up in the saddle and somebody training for mounted combat every day since they started walking?

And of course there would be more of them than there are knights. Unfortunately, the knights would trade losses at about 50:1 or worse even if they were completely unsupported. They are the equivalent of 20 billmen, armored, tactically sound infantrymen.

2 hours ago, house of dayne said:

I think you made numerous assumptions..dothraki would surely ride with multiple mounts..mongols could have up to three horses each..the speed and mobility of these armies could not be matched by foot soldiers and was in no way limited by three days..an army of heavy foot soldiers 50k large is a clumsy and slow moving beast...simply avoidingit and forcing it to move without allowing it to establish an entrenched position, would put tremendous pressure on its leaders to feed and maintain its order...what if the dothraki split their forces into two or thee columns? Who would the foot soldiers pursue? westetos is huge and it would be impossible for a foot army to corner or even manipulate the position of the mounted armies...a good dothraki leader would wait until inevitably the foot army begins to unravel under the constant and useless marching fatigues them and saps morale..engage their stretched out marching columns and supply trains with limited forces and deny the foot army any chance to fully engage..

Because it is in westeros, the impetus is on thefoot army to find and destroy the invaders...the dothraki could content themselves simply plundering the land and provoke the westrosi to respond on their terms

Of course the Dothraki would ride with multiple mounts. I never thought or said anything else. By the way, three horses were the minimum for a knight, Mongols were closer to twelve.

But: Horses lack endurance. After four hours per day, they are done, whether they are ridden or not. That can be stretched for the first couple of days, but afterwards they will gather injuries real quick. How many humans can do 8-12 hours of work per day? Every healthy one?

An army of 50,000 humans and 150,000 horses is even more clumsy and more slowly moving. And requires about ten times the food.

Westeros is full of rivers and mountains. armies can cross rivers and mountains only at bridges, fords and passes. Those can be blocked, and often got castles or fortified cities close by anyway.

2 hours ago, house of dayne said:

The challenge of feeding and maintaining the morale exists for the foot armies as well...but when a foot army marches, it stretches out and its supply trains lag behind..horse nomads do not have this problem and travelling with an extra 2 horses gives you ready food supply when things get lean..foot soldiers do not

Wait, what, since when do three horses require less space than one human?

 

1 hour ago, Barty said:

Firstly Horses refuse to charge a wall of pikes - they are not suicidal. Even with heavy cavalry most charges failed if the infantry did not break and run. Assuming westerosi infantry will not break until something major happens (heavy casualties, leader dying etc) then dothraki horses will veer away everytime they try to charge westerosi lines. Dothraki archers will be a problem since according to Jorah they outrange westerosi bows - but at full range will these arrow be able to pierce armor? Probably not. Im not saying most infantry wear heavy plate but even a shirt of mail will probably stop arrows if they are being fired from 200+ yards away (unless its a long bow). 

No. Not even Westerosi longbows at point blank range (< 30 m) will pierce armor. Not even mail. Maybe a padded jack, once in a great while, and only at point blank range.

Arrows are a nuisance, not a killer. Sometimes a really, really uncomfortable nuisance, setting up the actual killing stroke, but for that you need a killer force. Heavy cavalry, heavy infantry, those are killers. But the Dothraki haven't either.

[house of dayne]

4 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

2 hours ago, house of dayne said:

The challenge of feeding and maintaining the morale exists for the foot armies as well...but when a foot army marches, it stretches out and its supply trains lag behind..horse nomads do not have this problem and travelling with an extra 2 horses gives you ready food supply when things get lean..foot soldiers do not

Wait, what, since when do three horses require less space than one human?

my point is an all cavalry unit is far faster more agile and maneuverable than an all foot army...a westrosi army of armoured foot soldiers would necessarily require an extensive baggage train to feed and supply it...those heavy pikes and armour need to be transported as well ..the dothraki, modeled after typical eurasian steppe nomads tribes, are a self contained, self sufficient unit that can litterally live off their own horses if need be...fiurthermore, the whole 50K unit travels at the speed of the horse...subutai, the mongol general took an expeditionary exploritory force of about 20k into the middle east and europe and completely decimated the armoured units he encountered...he did not have the sophisticated mongol war machine of later wars but rather was leading a gang of horseman who lived off the land they raided and their horses when they had to..their advantage was speed, mobility...they discarded the clumsy and anchoring supply vans that were customary in ancient warfare and punished their enemies' lack of agility..50k dothraki can be divided into 25 smaller units that could harry and harass the foot soldiers supply trains as they march uselessly around trying to track them down..the dothraki need only to maneuver constantly to attack the rear or flanks and then retreat to provoke a foolish retaliation from the foot soldiers..once the foot soldiers break rank and formation, they will get devoured by the dothraki and even seasoned soldiers can only maintain discapline for so long..  

 

[house of dayne]

Who would win. 50000 westerosi infantry comprising men at arms on foot, pikemen, and archers vs 50000 dothraki. Both are led by average comanders. Who wins?...thats the original question..

just a reminder..the post specifically asked infantry vs dothraki cavalry..there are therefore no knights or westrosi cavalry to consider..

[house of dayne]

3 hours ago, Jasta11 said:

Eastern Europe actually held off the Mongols to a degree, anyway. They didn't face the full might of the hordes thanks to Mongol politics, sure, but they weren't swept away by any means.

this is completely and utterly false...the russians and europeans knew nothing but apocalyptic defeat when the mongols invaded europe on multiple occasions...only the death of the khan stopped them from taking wien and sweeping into western europe...no european force had any answers for the tactics of the mongols and were in fact completely swept away..

[house of dayne]

btw, we do know the dothraki had little problems dealing with the armies of sarnor, a powerful empire with strong armoured forces...the khalasars were brilliant in exploiting the disharmony of the rival sarnor princes and picked them off one by one...even in the epic open battle, the dothraki won the day with their cavalry tactics...furthermore they crushed the proto quatheen empire and drove them into the red wastes..presumably these empires had strong armoured forces that got annihilated into oblivion.. .they do not simply bully the lamb men and defenseless peasants, they have in fact conquered some of essos greatest empires..

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Sarnor heavily utilized chariots. Chariots, the height of military technology at Megiddo and Kadesch. That's early to mid Bronze Age.

[Lord Giggles]

1 hour ago, house of dayne said:

this is completely and utterly false...the russians and europeans knew nothing but apocalyptic defeat when the mongols invaded europe on multiple occasions...only the death of the khan stopped them from taking wien and sweeping into western europe...no european force had any answers for the tactics of the mongols and were in fact completely swept away..

The mongols actually never even attempted to take Vienna(Wien) due to the fact that the Hungarians, while they were defeated on the battlefield, then retreated to their fortresses, a type of warfare for which the Mongols weren't prepared(although were perfectly capable of waging as is proved by their campaigns in China). 

And people seem to forget 2 things when comparing the Mongols and dothraki. 

1. While 6 of every 10 Mongols were light cavalrymen, the remaining 4 were heavy cavalrymen armed with lances and axes and the like. In addition to this, the Mongols wore armour. Even the light cavalry wore armour of sorts, even if it wasn't sufficient to stop a lance or sword thrust. They also armoured their horses. The Dothraki have none of this. Neither they nor their horses are armoured, so the Westerosi(who are used to fighting armoured opponents) would have a field day fighting them due to the sheer availabilty of targets they have where they can hit and it will be effective. They wouldn't need to kill the Dothraki riders to prevent them from utilizing their usual tactics, they'd only need to incapacitate the Dothraki horses which will likely be easier to do than incapacitating a Westerosi war horse. 

2. By the time the Mongols reached central Europe they were no longer the force of purely mounted nomads who had emerged from Mongolia under the command of Genghis Khan. They employed infantry auxiliaries from all across their empire, Persian engineers and even Chinese firearms. The Mongols who the Poles and Hungarians fought were a far more versatile force than the Dothraki with auxiliaries from all across their empire to provide them with specialisms they lacked. 

[Tarellen]

The battle takes place in neutral territory.

[Trigger Warning]

7 hours ago, house of dayne said:

this is completely and utterly false...the russians and europeans knew nothing but apocalyptic defeat when the mongols invaded europe on multiple occasions...only the death of the khan stopped them from taking wien and sweeping into western europe...no european force had any answers for the tactics of the mongols and were in fact completely swept away..

Even in the campaigns that crushed the first Euopeans they encountered the mongols armies often suffered heavy casualties and they suffered more from continued Hungarian resistance post Mohi they pretty much got tied up in siege warfare and suffered the attrition of it, they struggled to maintain the logistics of nomadic warfare in the West unlike the East where it flourished. The invasion of Croatia failed because their way of warfare could not adapt to the mountainous terrain and let's not forget that the death of Ogedei is widely debated as to whether or not it was the cause of the mongol withdrawal or just a trigger. 

The Bulgarians defeated the Mongols militarily in several scenarios and it was more a matter of politics that they ended up in vassalage. 

The second Invasion of Poland once again got tied up in siege warfare and the Mongols were repulsed. 

Then let's not forget the Hungarian military reforms after the Battle of Mohi which was just 40 years prior sent the Second Mongol invasion of Hungary packing with relative ease and do you know what those reforms were, an increase in knights and heavy cavalry, infantry and Western feudal models. 

The reality is that regardless of the Mongol infighting they were suffering heavy losses in all theatres of war in Europe and that's before contending with the powerful central European kingdoms. The Mongol Empire was lightning in a bottle, with some incredible commanders, they didn't have some inherent world conquering military superiority. 

Dothraki are a far cry from Mongols anyway. 

[Tarellen]

On July 10, 2016 at 0:43 PM, Barty said:

Firstly Horses refuse to charge a wall of pikes - they are not suicidal. Even with heavy cavalry most charges failed if the infantry did not break and run. Assuming westerosi infantry will not break until something major happens (heavy casualties, leader dying etc) then dothraki horses will veer away everytime they try to charge westerosi lines. Dothraki archers will be a problem since according to Jorah they outrange westerosi bows - but at full range will these arrow be able to pierce armor? Probably not. Im not saying most infantry wear heavy plate but even a shirt of mail will probably stop arrows if they are being fired from 200+ yards away (unless its a long bow). 

If the dothraki enter into the range of westerosi archers then they will die. 

The best use of Dothraki is not to engage enemies head on. They are lightly armored, very good archers with good quality bows and brilliant horsemen. Use them to start battles by peppering the enemy with arrows, then engage enemy infantry with your own infantry, circle the dothraki around the westerosi force using their speed, and fire arrows in the rear of infantry - because of armor this will still not do too much damage (though it will do more damage than firing from the front - cause no shields) but the morale effect will be terrible. Or you can just charge the Dothraki into the enemy rear - this will be devastating since most infantry will run when attacked in the rear (We saw in the battle of the Camps that the extremely well trained Lannister infantry actually held off against Robb's charge from the front but when Tytos Blackwood attacked them in the rear they broke and ran). 

However using this tactic one would have to be careful not to get caught by westerosi cavalry while moving around the infantry - if knights engage the Dothraki then the dothraki are dead. Dothraki might be trained to fight since birth but so are knights and knights have far better equipment. If westerosi cavalry charges then the Dothraki's only tactic should be to run and if possible fire arrows to maybe kill a few horses.

Both armies are forced into direct battle

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

17 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Even in the campaigns that crushed the first Euopeans they encountered the mongols armies often suffered heavy casualties and they suffered more from continued Hungarian resistance post Mohi they pretty much got tied up in siege warfare and suffered the attrition of it, they struggled to maintain the logistics of nomadic warfare in the West unlike the East where it flourished. The invasion of Croatia failed because their way of warfare could not adapt to the mountainous terrain and let's not forget that the death of Ogedei is widely debated as to whether or not it was the cause of the mongol withdrawal or just a trigger. 

The Bulgarians defeated the Mongols militarily in several scenarios and it was more a matter of politics that they ended up in vassalage. 

The second Invasion of Poland once again got tied up in siege warfare and the Mongols were repulsed. 

Then let's not forget the Hungarian military reforms after the Battle of Mohi which was just 40 years prior sent the Second Mongol invasion of Hungary packing with relative ease and do you know what those reforms were, an increase in knights and heavy cavalry, infantry and Western feudal models. 

The reality is that regardless of the Mongol infighting they were suffering heavy losses in all theatres of war in Europe and that's before contending with the powerful central European kingdoms. The Mongol Empire was lightning in a bottle, with some incredible commanders, they didn't have some inherent world conquering military superiority. 

Dothraki are a far cry from Mongols anyway. 

I think the bolded part makes quite a lot of sense, even though the Mongols are hyped up as exactly that in many works of history.

I mean, Alexander the Great conquered an almost similarly sized empire as the Mongols (in terms of population and such) with a pretty small nation to start with, just as they did. But he did it by himself in less than a decade whereas the Mongol Empire took a good 80 years and several different Khans to reach its maximum size. Yet even considering this, nobody says that moderately armored pikemen backed up by some medium cavalry is a recipe for an invincible super-army. 

The Dothraki as depicted in the books are pretty caricatureish though, like a lot of the world outside of Westeros. It really shows that GRRM's main interest is medieval Europe because he didn't put at all as much effort into making the rest of the world seem realistic as he did for Westeros, in fact much of it that is similar to what you read in regular fantasy books. Only darker and grittier. "Here is a land of prostitutes, here is a land of greedy and decadent merchants, here is a land of barbaric nomads, here is a paradise land where people have sex with everyone all the time and everything is perfect, here is a land where almost everyone is a slave," etc. This wouldn't matter if these regions weren't main settings in the books, but since they are it does become kind of a flaw. 

[GyantSpyder]

In addition to what everyone else has said, the Westerosi have a bunch of advantages based in how their armies are organized:

- The Westerosi all have memorized a system of sigils and flags, along with at least the Cliff's Notes on an elaborate feudal chain of command. The Westerosi also appear to at least somewhat use other sorts of signaling devices, like warhorns.

- To contrast (and to contrast the Mongols, who had much tighter organization), leadership in a khalasar is based on personal relationships - the follow orders from specific people; they don't use flags or other symbols. People get promoted for personal service and friendship to the khal, not due to anything concerning the men under their command. They do wear body paint and paint their horses, but this only serves to identify the khal of a particular khalasar, it does not break down further to the kos and so forth - because when a khal dies, the entire organizational structure of the khalasar collapses and reorganizes itself. . The Dorthraki do not appear to have any sort of bugle other than screaming, which is very limited on how long and how loudly you can do it, especially while exerting yourself.

We can speculate a few effects from this:

- In the heat of battle, especially one involving incendiaries, and thus, smoke, it is easier for the Westerosi soldier to figure out where he is and what direction he should be facing than it is for a Dothraki.

- In a battle made up of more than one unit, it is easier for the Westerosi to split up and them come back together in a specific coordinated place and time than it is for the Dothraki, whose may lose sight of each other or meet unexpected terrain and have no way of passing signals or messages - and thus who all tend to charge at the same thing at the same time.

- Remember how pissed off everyone was when Daenerys ordered the khalasar to stop in GoT (and I think she had people literally shout back that they were stopping, like in a game of telephone) - an army that is used to passing around orders and messages across multiple units has to stop frequently - a wagon gets stuck, or somebody has to get an order confirmed, or there's a need to scout some terrain before proceeding. That Daenerys stopping them when they were under no pressure to go anywhere was such a problem tends to show that the lack of signaling technology (flags, drums or bugles) has carried over to a relatively limited ability to pass formal orders through the khalasar, and thus not an expectations that those sorts of orders are going to be issued.

- In the event that a commander is killed or injured or a unit is routed, it is much easier for the Westerosi to regroup than it is for the Dothraki. As we learn from the Septon Meribald speech, the Westerosi soldier knows to find the right banner and form up by it. Meanwhile the main reaction by Dothraki to the death of a leader is revenge against the killer, followed by either running away or fighting each other for control of the khalasar.

And then you can add on top of that that Dothraki battle commanders other than bloodriders seem to have strong incentives to either murder their superiors or let them die, which puts them around the level of Klingons in plausible and effective leadership.

(In general I would not put a lot of trust in Dothraki social norms to constrain the behavior of commanders in battle all that much. I would not count on a bloodrider necessarily committing suicide, for example, or on a ko who has been cut off from the main force not just running away.)

So, even if the Dothraki's equipment and technology gives them a lot of mobility on the battlefield, they have a deficit in the tactics, organization and technologies that would let them deploy it effectively.

In particular the Dothraki are likely very bad at orderly retreat or tactical withdrawal - there isn't much of a way to pass the order, there isn't much of a reason to follow it, and there's no way for the main body of the army to know what they are supposed to do when it happens other than stand around and see what the khal says to them, if he's still alive.

These kinds of failures of communication tend to be disastrous, especially in large battles that last more than a couple of hours, even when a group has a numbers or technology advantage.

[Tarellen]

So basically it's a stomp in favor of the westerosi?