So why don't the Starks have a court pre series

[Tarellen]

I mean there basically kings of the north even without the title so how come they have no court or even that great of a household? Shouldn't there be lords coming and going to jockey for favor with the Starks? Shouldn't Cat have ladies in waiting from great northern families? So what gives? Did grrm make the Starks too relatable and forgot to make them aristocratic?  

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, Tarellen said:

I mean there basically kings of the north even without the title so how come they have no court or even that great of a household? Shouldn't there be lords coming and going to jockey for favor with the Starks? Shouldn't Cat have ladies in waiting from great northern families? So what gives? Did grrm make the Starks too relatable and forgot to make them aristocratic?  

Yes this - along with the lack of any type of administrative setup - is a deficiency I have pointed out many times over the years. Basically Maester Luwin managed the finances, tax system, foreign affairs, legal system, public records and general running of a million square mile kingdom occuppied by millions of people.

Quite a man, that Luwin guy.

Of course, he is hardly alone in that. It seems the likes of the Arryns, Tullys etc. do pretty much the same thing. Martin's idea of how these Medieval Kingdoms are run seems extermely sparse on the details.

[Tarellen]

25 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yes this - along with the lack of any type of administrative setup - is a deficiency I have pointed out many times over the years. Basically Maester Luwin managed the finances, tax system, foreign affairs, legal system, public records and general running of a million square mile kingdom occuppied by millions of people.

Quite a man, that Luwin guy.

Of course, he is hardly alone in that. It seems the likes of the Arryns, Tullys etc. do pretty much the same thing. Martin's idea of how these Medieval Kingdoms are run seems extermely sparse on the details.

Yeah also this. Why is the north so well governed even though the Starks have very little in the way of administration? Where are councilers to help Ned? 

[Julia H.]

12 minutes ago, Tarellen said:

I mean there basically kings of the north even without the title so how come they have no court or even that great of a household? Shouldn't there be lords coming and going to jockey for favor with the Starks? Shouldn't Cat have ladies in waiting from great northern families? So what gives? Did grrm make the Starks too relatable and forgot to make them aristocratic?  

Winter is coming. Sooner or later. When it comes, it will be long, and you won't need idle people to feed.

The Starks are not as refined as those Southern lords, and they probably define "aristocratic" differently (if at all). 

The blood and the traditions of the First Men.

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yes this - along with the lack of any type of administrative setup - is a deficiency I have pointed out many times over the years. Basically Maester Luwin managed the finances, tax system, foreign affairs, legal system, public records and general running of a million square mile kingdom occuppied by millions of people.

Quite a man, that Luwin guy.

Of course, he is hardly alone in that. It seems the likes of the Arryns, Tullys etc. do pretty much the same thing. Martin's idea of how these Medieval Kingdoms are run seems extermely sparse on the details.

That's an interesting observation. Actually, IIRC there is a librarian, too, who can and probably does help out with the administration. 

Ruling seems to happen mainly orally though. We never see Maester Luwin being very busy writing official documents even though we see the Starks making decisions for their bannermen.

We know Luwin looks after the Winterfell economy (like Bowen Marsh in Castle Black), so he must keep some records at least there. He tells the lord when they need new supplies of goods, for example. The tax system is probably part of this sort of bookkeeping because the tax is probably paid in goods. 

Other than that...

The "foreign affairs" file must be extremely thin. At the beginning of AGoT, Ned practically has no idea of what's going on outside the North. There must be some letters occasionally, but that's all, and Luwin can manage those.

The legal system doesn't seem to be based on written law or documents at all. The lord rules (there are always witnesses) and the subjects are supposed to obey. The lord must have the Corpus Juris in his head (the First Men way as well as the King's Justice, where applicable) and the Starks seem to know personally all their bannermen. It's like a really big family, everyone knows everyone and the North remembers. No need for written records. 

[Michael Mertyns]

When Winter is Coming, you don't have time for the extravagance of court.

The North is the largest of the Seven Kingdoms, but it is not highly populated. This decentralized nature would make it harder for lords to have a presence at court and still manage their holdings than if they were in other regions.

[Free Northman Reborn]

7 minutes ago, Michael Mertyns said:

When Winter is Coming, you don't have time for the extravagance of court.

The North is the largest of the Seven Kingdoms, but it is not highly populated. This decentralized nature would make it harder for lords to have a presence at court and still manage their holdings than if they were in other regions.

It still has millions of citizens. More than medieval England had, in fact.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

There is some. Ned, Cat, his Steward, his Maester, his Master of Arms, Master of Horse, his captain of the Guards and the septa and septon Ned employs. I imagine there are a few (though not many) other Stark minor nobility who have nearby holdfasts and normally spend time at Starks court as well as regular appearances from the Glovers, Tallharts and nearby Lords the Cerwyns.

But then there is Ned who seems to want it that way. He regularly travels to his Lords so they don't really need to visit him (though they do as we learn from Alys Karstark and see at the Harvest festival).  And then there is also the fact that Ned (and I'm guessing Rickard before him) are not particularly close to the other Starks in the North or their cousins in the Vale, which makes Winterfell's court quite small. I imagine in othe Stark era's there was a multitude of Stark cousin and second cousins hanging around.

9 minutes ago, Tarellen said:

Yeah also this. Why is the north so well governed even though the Starks have very little in the way of administration? Where are councilers to help Ned? 

It is a feudal realm, the Lords govern themselves with little to no interference from the Starks or Targaryens/Baratheons unless something especially bad happens (think Jorah selling people into slavery). The North especially so.

Both Ned and Cat seem like hands on nobility so probably don't need much more than the two Cassels, Vayon Poole and Luwin to rule the large but thinly populated Winterfell lands. Especially as there are other Holdfasts in their area likely with similar ranking nobility to the Cassels and Pooles governing the Winterfell smallfolk.

 

 

 

[Tarellen]

27 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Winter is coming. Sooner or later. When it comes, it will be long, and you won't need idle people to feed.

The Starks are not as refined as those Southern lords, and they probably define "aristocratic" differently (if at all). 

The blood and the traditions of the First Men.

That's an interesting observation. Actually, IIRC there is a librarian, too, who can and probably does help out with the administration. 

Ruling seems to happen mainly orally though. We never see Maester Luwin being very busy writing official documents even though we see the Starks making decisions for their bannermen.

We know Luwin looks after the Winterfell economy (like Bowen Marsh in Castle Black), so he must keep some records at least there. He tells the lord when they need new supplies of goods, for example. The tax system is probably part of this sort of bookkeeping because the tax is probably paid in goods. 

Other than that...

The "foreign affairs" file must be extremely thin. At the beginning of AGoT, Ned practically has no idea of what's going on outside the North. There must be some letters occasionally, but that's all, and Luwin can manage those.

The legal system doesn't seem to be based on written law or documents at all. The lord rules (there are always witnesses) and the subjects are supposed to obey. The lord must have the Corpus Juris in his head (the First Men way as well as the King's Justice, where applicable) and the Starks seem to know personally all their bannermen. It's like a really big family, everyone knows everyone and the North remembers. No need for written records. 

So your telling me there no ass kissing lords in the north? That goes against human nature as presented in the series but okay. Also how do the Starks keep track of everything if it's mostly oral? Souldn't the north be a lot more decentralized then presented in the series if there were no writen records?

 

21 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It still has millions of citizens. More than medieval England had, in fact.

Yeah England during the war of the roses only had 2 million people. And while there were large battles during the war they were in England. All the far away campaigns of the 15th century England sent much smaller armies.

[StarkofWinterfell]

1 hour ago, Tarellen said:

I mean there basically kings of the north even without the title so how come they have no court or even that great of a household? Shouldn't there be lords coming and going to jockey for favor with the Starks? Shouldn't Cat have ladies in waiting from great northern families? So what gives? Did grrm make the Starks too relatable and forgot to make them aristocratic?  

Why aren't they itinerant?

[Tarellen]

54 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

There is some. Ned, Cat, his Steward, his Maester, his Master of Arms, Master of Horse, his captain of the Guards and the septa and septon Ned employs. I imagine there are a few (though not many) other Stark minor nobility who have nearby holdfasts and normally spend time at Starks court as well as regular appearances from the Glovers, Tallharts and nearby Lords the Cerwyns.

But then there is Ned who seems to want it that way. He regularly travels to his Lords so they don't really need to visit him (though they do as we learn from Alys Karstark and see at the Harvest festival).  And then there is also the fact that Ned (and I'm guessing Rickard before him) are not particularly close to the other Starks in the North or their cousins in the Vale, which makes Winterfell's court quite small. I imagine in othe Stark era's there was a multitude of Stark cousin and second cousins hanging around.

It is a feudal realm, the Lords govern themselves with little to no interference from the Starks or Targaryens/Baratheons unless something especially bad happens (think Jorah selling people into slavery). The North especially so.

Both Ned and Cat seem like hands on nobility so probably don't need much more than the two Cassels, Vayon Poole and Luwin to rule the large but thinly populated Winterfell lands. Especially as there are other Holdfasts in their area likely with similar ranking nobility to the Cassels and Pooles governing the Winterfell smallfolk.

 

 

 

That seems really decentralized even more then the books.

 

7 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Why aren't they itinerant?

What are you talking about?

[StarkofWinterfell]

1 minute ago, Tarellen said:

That seems really decentralized even more then the books.

 

What are you talking about?

I mean why don't they have many holdings and castles that they just travel to and rotate as their seats of power?

[Tarellen]

4 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

I mean why don't they have many holdings and castles that they just travel to and rotate as their seats of power?

True that's also curious. Why only one major castle?

[TheSovereignGrave]

56 minutes ago, Tarellen said:

True that's also curious. Why only one major castle?

Because it's just how all of the noble houses in Westeros are. It seems like they tend to give away extras, with noble houses like House Peake at their height the exception rather than the rule.

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, Tarellen said:

So your telling me there no ass kissing lords in the north? That goes against human nature as presented in the series but okay. Also how do the Starks keep track of everything if it's mostly oral? Souldn't the north be a lot more decentralized then presented in the series if there were no writen records?

I told you: The North remembers. 

Regarding human nature, we have heard about Karstark's visit to Winterfell with Alys when he hoped to forge a marriage alliance between Robb and his daughter. That's probably the kind of thing. I guess they can go and visit any time on a suitable pretext, but they are supposed to go home instead of staying in Winterfell indefinitely.

Maybe the North is quite decentralized. Probably every lord is required to keep law and order and deliver the King's Justice in their own lands and among their own vassals. The Warden of the North makes decisions in matters between major Northern lords and rules in the case of runaway black brothers, who are nobody's bannermen.  Also, those clansmen don't seem to be the kind who run to Winterfell with every small problem. Lord Stark visits them sometimes so they know him.

Travelling is also influenced by weather conditions, and if they have to learn to solve their problems and do the administration (whatever it means) locally in winter, they will probably do the same in summer, too, unless something really extraordinary happens. 

And, of course, tax collectors will never find Greywater Watch. 

What do we know about the population of the North? How many inhabitants are there? I understand that it is a huge region, but there are also quite large uninhabited areas, like the Gift or the Wolfswood, or the really high mountains, and the general agricultural possibilities seem to be somewhat limited. 

[Protagoras]

Maybe the northern culture have less of the arselicking and therefore don´t need a court with ladies in waiting and nobles searching for favors all the time?

[Lost Umber]

The Starks do things old school. They have a bunch of maxims in the text that speak to personal responsibility and accountability, such as...

 "He who passes the sentence swings the sword" 

"there must always be Stark in Winterfell" (to rule... Obviously)

"only Southron pussies delegate. "

"Winter is coming."

[The Wolves]

39 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Maybe the northern culture have less of the arselicking and therefore don´t need a court with ladies in waiting and nobles searching for favors all the time?

Plus the North is big and who would waste all their time continuously trying to get in the Starks' good favor when they have lands and keeps to tend to hundreds of miles away. 

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

3 hours ago, Julia H. said:

 

Maybe the North is quite decentralized. Probably every lord is required to keep law and order and deliver the King's Justice in their own lands and among their own vassals. The Warden of the North makes decisions in matters between major Northern lords and rules in the case of runaway black brothers, who are nobody's bannermen.  Also, those clansmen don't seem to be the kind who run to Winterfell with every small problem. Lord Stark visits them sometimes so they know him.

I would also assume that the Starks would get involved in matters like rouge lords, aka Jorah Mormont, as well as incidents that overlap between two lords.

[The Fattest Leech]

Lots of good comments so far. Just a small one to add:

as far as holding court, Ned made a point of having a commoner for dinner every night just to keep in contact with his people and lands. That's how it's done in the north. Northerners also don't hold tons of value in material things that are useless when winter arrives. Gold is impractical, iron and bronze are king.  . 

[The Wull]

I kind of wish we had gotten a little more of Pre-Robert Winterfell, just to see how it was run, because we really do know very little about it.  Most of what we know is second hand from either Jon or Robb, and we don't even get a POV from Robb.  Ned's POV wasn't particularly enlightening in this area either.  

I guess we're to believe that there really were just a very small group of people running everything, and that local lords were granted an extreme amount of autonomy where the Lord Stark only stepped in to solve disputes or call the banners.  

I did always think it was weird though that there weren't any fostered children at Winterfell until the Walders.  AFAIK that was one of the major ways that the Houses built relationships along with marriages.  But I suppose you can't include everything, the books are already large enough.