Bloodraven's relations with Daeron II

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The name begins on 'Dae...' and ends on '...on' ;-).

Well, we can agree on that.

[The Grey Wolf]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

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Well in that case we're just going to have to disagree though I will concede that there is far more proof for Daeron being close to him than Daemon at the current moment.

Anyway, to answer your question concerning the BR in F & B. Yes, I expect we will learn a lot about the former in the later. If it really is going to be a comprehensive history of House Targaryen then we should get detailed accounts of the Conquest of Dorne, the Blackfyre Rebellions, the Dornish Wars, the Faith Militant Uprising, the Peake Uprising, etc. on par with the full account of the Dance as well as other minor details like the other Vulture Kings and Grand Maester Hareth. He probably hasn't written in-depth on Targ history post-dance admittedly but I have little doubt he will once ASOIAF is finished and he switches focus to F & B + D & E.

[LIVIA]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Daemon had little chance of befriending Brynden Rivers. As I've laid out above it is likely that Brynden spent most of his time at Raventree Hall during his childhood. At least during the reign of his father. Daemon Blackfyre was five years older, and would thus most likely not have been a close companion of Brynden's even if they had grown up together at court. After the great bastards all lived at court during the reign of Daeron II Aegor and Daemon grew ever closer, making it unlikely that Daemon and Brynden ever had a close connection, especially in light of Brynden's own close relationship with Daeron II. He might even have gotten Dark Sister before the Blackfyre Rebellion.

I got an impression that GRRM highlighted Aegor's deportation as something special among the Great Bastards, so I don't think Brynden spend most of his childhood at Raventry Hall. Though, if his mother died before Aegon, Brynden could be sent to the Blackwoods after that.

But I agree that he had nothing to do with Daemon in his childhood. He wasn't especially fond of swordplay, hated Aegor (who was closer to Daemon in age) and could hardly be interesting for "a big boy" of 12 who yielded BLACKFYRE!!1, let alone the same boy of 14, with wife, two children, his own patch of land and political ambitions (when Brynden was still only 9).

(By the way, has he ever been at Dragonstone? An ancient castle of black stone, hidden from the sun with volcanic smoke and dust all the year round: mmmm... )

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, LIVIA said:

I got an impression that GRRM highlighted Aegor's deportation as something special among the Great Bastards, so I don't think Brynden spend most of his childhood at Raventry Hall. Though, if his mother died before Aegon, Brynden could be sent to the Blackwoods after that.

We don't get any line highlighting Aegor's banishment from court, we learn that his mother and father were sent away due to the insistence of the Dragonknight and Prince Daeron. We only later learn that Aegor was raised at Stone Hedge whether his grandfather and mother lived.

However, it is ridiculous to believe that a man like Aegon IV cared much about the children his many affairs produced, especially after he had broken with their mothers. Yes, while his many mistresses reigned at court their children would also have had a place there, but considering that his mistresses didn't reign all that long (aside from Missy, whose relationship with Aegon IV lasted five years) the children fathered during those relationships wouldn't have spend much time at court.

The idea that Aegon IV loved any of his children makes little sense. The man was a narcissistic psychopath. He only began using his many bastards as tools against Daeron late in his reign, and the only bastard he truly favored was Daemon Blackfyre. Whatever incomes he granted to Aegor, Brynden, and Shiera most likely were granted late in his reign, possibly around the time or after he had acknowledged Daemon as his son, perhaps only his on his deathbed.

Keep in mind that they were still all very young at that point, aside from Daemon (who clearly grew up very fast).

What people overlook seems to be the fact that Daeron II's kindness towards his half-siblings seems to have been what made the Blackfyre Rebellion possible, not so much Aegon IV's own actions. They were still all children at that point, and Daeron II could have banished them all or have taken steps to separate them from one another. Instead he allowed them to live at court, and raised them with his own sons, and allowed his own master-at-arms (Fireball) to train them at arms alongside Baelor and Maekar.

15 minutes ago, LIVIA said:

But I agree that he had nothing to do with Daemon in his childhood. He wasn't especially fond of swordplay, hated Aegor (who was closer to Daemon in age) and could hardly be interesting for "a big boy" of 12 who yielded BLACKFYRE!!1, let alone the same boy of 14, with wife, two children, his own patch of land and political ambitions (when Brynden was still only 9).

Yeah, Brynden would only have been close enough to become interesting for Daemon when Aegor was also older and already around them. If Aegor had been the younger boy things might have worked. Then Bloodraven and Daemon might have been closer in age and could actually have spent some time together.

11 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Well in that case we're just going to have to disagree though I will concede that there is far more proof for Daeron being close to him than Daemon at the current moment.

Hm. Can you (or anybody else who likes this Daemon-Bloodraven idea) perhaps also lay out why the hell you believe Bloodraven is all that much about duty? I can see how people might like to think that, but there is actually no textual evidence for it. Aside from any love Bloodraven might have had for brother X, his hatred of Bittersteel alone might have been enough to make him a firm Targaryen loyalist.

But there is now so much more that gives us the impression that Bloodraven was also emotionally connected to Daeron II.

Duty isn't a strong trait of Bloodraven, though. Power is, the power of the Hand of the King and the de facto king. The whole Night's Watch and greenseer thing he eventually does clouds are picture of the younger man, I think. Bloodraven isn't Maester Aemon who was trained from childhood and youth to be a modest dutiful servant. Brynden Rivers had his own ambitions and acquired quite a lot of power as a sorcerer, Master of Whisperers, and Hand of the King.

I very much doubt he cared about the Night's Watch and the Others until he was finally forced to go the Wall. If he did, he would have gone to the Wall a lot sooner or he would have done anything in his power to convince the Targaryens and the Blackfyres about the actual threat they were facing. Bloodraven's tragic story might be that he only realized what truly mattered when he became the tree man in that cave, unable to ever tell his peers and friends in a clear fashion what they were up against.

11 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Anyway, to answer your question concerning the BR in F & B. Yes, I expect we will learn a lot about the former in the later. If it really is going to be a comprehensive history of House Targaryen then we should get detailed accounts of the Conquest of Dorne, the Blackfyre Rebellions, the Dornish Wars, the Faith Militant Uprising, the Peake Uprising, etc. on par with the full account of the Dance as well as other minor details like the other Vulture Kings and Grand Maester Hareth. He probably hasn't written in-depth on Targ history post-dance admittedly but I have little doubt he will once ASOIAF is finished and he switches focus to F & B + D & E.

I agree with you there, of course. But we should also consider the possibility that Gyldayn has a greater interest in certain reigns/periods than in others. However, I'm certainly with you that George should give a lot of detail on the more important events of Targaryen history. For instance, the length of the reign of a king certainly should certainly have an effect on the account of his reign.

I'm not saying the account on the Old King and the Good Queen should dominate the book but his reign, and the reign of the Conqueror, were the longest reigns of Targaryen kings, and thus those reigns should get a proper treatment even if most of it was peace, quiet, and prosperity. Then you recount the intrigues at court, the splendor of the tourneys and balls, and other things.

[direpupy]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't get any line highlighting Aegor's banishment from court, we learn that his mother and father were sent away due to the insistence of the Dragonknight and Prince Daeron. We only later learn that Aegor was raised at Stone Hedge whether his grandfather and mother lived.

Actually we do get a highlight on Aegor being sent away.

LADY BARBA BRACKEN: The vivacious dark-haired daughter of Lord Bracken of Stone Hedge, and a companion to the three princesses in Maidenvault

With Baelor's death in 171 and Viserys II's ascension to the throne, the princesses were once again permitted male company. Aegon (now Prince of Dragonstone and heir apparent) became entranced with sixteenyear-old Barba. On his own ascent in 172, he named her father as his Hand and openly took her for his mistress. She bore him a bastard only a fortnight before another set of twins—a stillborn boy and a girl, Daenerys, who survived—were delivered by Queen Naerys. With the queen lingering near death, the Hand—Barba's father—talked openly of wedding his daughter to the King. After the queen's recovery, the scandal proved Barba's undoing, as young Prince Daeron and his uncle, the Dragonknight, forced Aegon to send her and the bastard away. The boy, raised at Stone Hedge by the Brackens, was called Aegor Rivers, but in time became known as Bittersteel.

 

They are both sent away, and do other mistresses where also sent away, he is they only bastard of whome we hear that he also has to leave.

As a matter of fact he is they only bastard of who it is mentioned where he was raised, why only mention this for him if it is not a exeption to what normally happend?

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Actually we do get a highlight on Aegor being sent away.

Oh, thank you, I had forgotten that.

29 minutes ago, direpupy said:

They are both sent away, and do other mistresses where also sent away, he is they only bastard of whome we hear that he also has to leave.

Actually, we also know that Merry Meg's daughters were given to the Faith. And do you actually think that Aegon's three children by Bellegere Otherys were raised by him, either at the Red Keep or in Braavos? I don't think so. That woman wasn't dependent on Aegon, and she most likely did not allow him to mess around with her children. Those three children most likely didn't even spend time with their father (aside from, perhaps a few visits) after he had taken the Iron Throne.

29 minutes ago, direpupy said:

As a matter of fact he is they only bastard of who it is mentioned where he was raised, why only mention this for him if it is not a exeption to what normally happend?

The idea that a two year old bastard boy stayed with his royal father rather than being raised by his mother at least while he was still a boy in swaddling clothes is pretty far-fetched to me. If we had textual evidence stating that Aegon IV was very taken by this albino child and took him away from his mother and into the care of some nursemaid you would have a case. But usually children in Westeros remain in the care of their mothers while they are young. And I very much doubt a man like Aegon rejoiced at the birth of some albino abomination. That's not as bad as twisted freak with some dragon-like traits but still not the kind of son a father would be proud of.

Shiera may have become a ward of the Crown considering that her mother died birthing her. But she was an exception there. Brynden Rivers had a mother at Raventree, and possibly an uncle and a grandfather as well. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, we also know that Merry Meg's daughters were given to the Faith. And do you actually think that Aegon's three children by Bellegere Otherys were raised by him, either at the Red Keep or in Braavos? I don't think so. That woman wasn't dependent on Aegon, and she most likely did not allow him to mess around with her children. Those three children most likely didn't even spend time with their father (aside from, perhaps a few visits) after he had taken the Iron Throne.

The idea that a two year old bastard boy stayed with his royal father rather than being raised by his mother at least while he was still a boy in swaddling clothes is pretty far-fetched to me. If we had textual evidence stating that Aegon IV was very taken by this albino child and took him away from his mother and into the care of some nursemaid you would have a case. But usually children in Westeros remain in the care of their mothers while they are young. And I very much doubt a man like Aegon rejoiced at the birth of some albino abomination. That's not as bad as twisted freak with some dragon-like traits but still not the kind of son a father would be proud of.

Shiera may have become a ward of the Crown considering that her mother died birthing her. But she was an exception there. Brynden Rivers had a mother at Raventree, and possibly an uncle and a grandfather as well. 

Perhaps @direpupywas referring to the great bastards only. Merry Meg's daughters were just common whelps, who were given to the faith by Aegon's father. Bellegere's babes might have been seen as exotic foreigners, if not savages, at court. In any event, the wee Otheryses were born in Braavos, no? The Great Bastards were all born in the Red Keep, no? And are we sure that Miss Blackwood was ever sent away from King's Landing? Wasn't she friends with the queen and the crown prince? 

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

Perhaps @direpupywas referring to the great bastards only. Merry Meg's daughters were just common whelps, who were given to the faith by Aegon's father. Bellegere's babes might have been seen as exotic foreigners, if not savages, at court. In any event, the wee Otheryses were born in Braavos, no? The Great Bastards were all born in the Red Keep, no? And are we sure that Miss Blackwood was ever sent away from King's Landing? Wasn't she friends with the queen and the crown prince? 

Still, Merry Meg was one of those nine mistresses of Aegon the Unworthy. She was apparently more important to him than many of the noble maidens he deflowered and discarded.

Bellegere Otherys was actually a rather important woman in her own right. I doubt that the Targaryens were all that keen antagonizing the Braavosi.

Aside from Aegor and Daemon we have no plan where the great bastards were born. Daemon seems to have been born in the Maidenvault but whether Aegor was born in the Red Keep or elsewhere in the capital isn't clear (I'd lean towards him being in the castle, possibly the Tower of the Hand). Brynden and Shiera could have been in the castle but there is no guarantee that they were. Missy and Aegon could have been on some progress when Brynden was born, or Missy herself was just not at court at that time. The same goes for Serenei. All we know is that she died during the birth.

Missy certainly would have been welcome at court due to the fact that she was friends with Naerys, Aemon, and Daeron but whether she could stay or not would have been decided by Aegon IV, and nobody else, and one would assume he wanted her gone when he decided to replace her with another Blackwood. Not to mention that Daeron might already have resided on Dragonstone at that point, with Naerys becoming sicker and sicker, and Aemon dying shortly after the Toyne scandal which quickly followed after Aegon had brought Bethany to court.

And honestly, I find the idea that Brynden didn't live at least quite some time at Raventree to connect with his Blackwood roots pretty unlikely. Once Daeron II took he and all the other great bastards all seemed to have lived at court with, perhaps, Bittersteel and Daemon being less welcome there in the years shortly before the Blackfyre Rebellion. But Brynden would have thrived there, and we know that he also connections to his Blackwood kin (or at least Sefton believes he has) so he should have had some time to make those connections. I'm not show why the albino freak should be well-liked or care about his distant relations if he only met them once or twice in life, and spend most of his time sucking up to his Targaryen kin and his half-siblings.

The impression one gets from the Raven's Teeth, for instance, is that those might have been Blackwood men, at least partially.

[The Grey Wolf]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

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On Bloodraven: Sorry to disappoint you Lord Varys but I best answer I can give you is that Daemon being the brother Bloodraven loved just feels right to me. If I had to elaborate I guess its because GRRM likes to write about "the human heart in conflict with itself" and the idea of Bloodraven choosing between two beloved brothers and then making the difficult choice to personally kill said brother as well as his children fits that pattern.

Anyway, on F & B: Our discussion is sorely tempting me to start a thread dedicated to discussing what details we might expect to get concerning each king's reign, which reigns will get more/less attention/space, and, of particular interest to me, what might be the potential sources of information on each king. For instance you mentioned on my thread about Maegor a while back that in a reading of The Sons of the Dragon that the detail about him killing a cat with Dark Sister around the age of 3 is said by Gyldayn to perhaps be slander. That implies that Gyldayn was using more than one source when writing on the two sons of Aegon the Conqueror and that some of them had a vested interest in smearing Maegor's image, which could indicate that they were supporters of the Aenys/Alyssa faction from the time before his reign or that they were writing in the aftermath of it and were hoping to get into Jaehaerys I's graces by making his uncle seem even more of a monster than he actually had been and thus Jaehaerys conversely as an even greater king for repairing all the damage Maegor had done to the realm.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

On Bloodraven: Sorry to disappoint you Lord Varys but I best answer I can give you is that Daemon being the brother Bloodraven loved just feels right to me. If I had to elaborate I guess its because GRRM likes to write about "the human heart in conflict with itself" and the idea of Bloodraven choosing between two beloved brothers and then making the difficult choice to personally kill said brother as well as his children fits that pattern.

Well, that's not a good argument. On that basis I could just declare that it would make much more sense if Lyanna hated Brandon with a passion because he molested her as a child. That would also more to the whole 'the human heart in conflict with itself'. We have no reason to believe anything of this sort, nor have we any reason to think that Bloodraven's heart was in conflict with itself.

Many hearts in this story are, but not necessary Brynden Rivers' heart.

8 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Anyway, on F & B: Our discussion is sorely tempting me to start a thread dedicated to discussing what details we might expect to get concerning each king's reign, which reigns will get more/less attention/space, and, of particular interest to me, what might be the potential sources of information on each king. For instance you mentioned on my thread about Maegor a while back that in a reading of The Sons of the Dragon that the detail about him killing a cat with Dark Sister around the age of 3 is said by Gyldayn to perhaps be slander. That implies that Gyldayn was using more than one source when writing on the two sons of Aegon the Conqueror and that some of them had a vested interest in smearing Maegor's image, which could indicate that they were supporters of the Aenys/Alyssa faction from the time before his reign or that they were writing in the aftermath of it and were hoping to get into Jaehaerys I's graces by making his uncle seem even more of a monster than he actually had been and thus Jaehaerys conversely as an even greater king for repairing all the damage Maegor had done to the realm.

I doubt we will get a lot different sources. The reigns of the Conqueror and his sons are pretty far in the past already, and Gyldayn would have fewer first hand sources than he may have on the Dance or the reign of the later kings.

The idea that Maegor is going to become a 'grayer' character due to source criticism isn't very likely. Ran and Linda have read all George has written on Maegor up to this point and him being a better king than his moniker suggests would have been good material for TWoIaF. They would have touched on that/mentioned it at least. They did the same for Viserys II, after all.

[direpupy]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, thank you, I had forgotten that.

Actually, we also know that Merry Meg's daughters were given to the Faith. And do you actually think that Aegon's three children by Bellegere Otherys were raised by him, either at the Red Keep or in Braavos? I don't think so. That woman wasn't dependent on Aegon, and she most likely did not allow him to mess around with her children. Those three children most likely didn't even spend time with their father (aside from, perhaps a few visits) after he had taken the Iron Throne.

The idea that a two year old bastard boy stayed with his royal father rather than being raised by his mother at least while he was still a boy in swaddling clothes is pretty far-fetched to me. If we had textual evidence stating that Aegon IV was very taken by this albino child and took him away from his mother and into the care of some nursemaid you would have a case. But usually children in Westeros remain in the care of their mothers while they are young. And I very much doubt a man like Aegon rejoiced at the birth of some albino abomination. That's not as bad as twisted freak with some dragon-like traits but still not the kind of son a father would be proud of.

Shiera may have become a ward of the Crown considering that her mother died birthing her. But she was an exception there. Brynden Rivers had a mother at Raventree, and possibly an uncle and a grandfather as well. 

No problem i forget things al the time that why i like a search of ice and fire so much

As to merry megs daughters they where given to the faith by Viserys II Aegons father so Aegon did not have a say in this.

Belegere Otherys children are said to have been of dubieus parentage, so even Aegon probably had doubts about being the father there.

Hmmm swaddeling clothes are only used on baby's not on toddlers, by the time a child is two it can walk and talk and eat solid food, so it actually is not a that far-fetched that he could be away from his mother. That is if she was away at all, since she was a friend of Queen Naerys she might very wel have stayed as one of the companions of the Queen. Aegon did not bother himself with his wife and by extension her household, there marriage was stated to be unhappy and he did not count her among the 9 women who he said to have truly loved (this by the way is where that list of nine mistresses comes from, he had many more but these are the ones he claimes to have actually loved) He even said that she was they only women he did not enjoy sleeping with, so i do not think that they saw each other whery much he would have put her up in a part of Maegor's holdfast far from his own rooms. So Missy as a companion of the Queen would also have been in that part and not in sight all the time.

Now if you really do not believe that any of the great bastards (exept Shiera) was raised in the red keep then how do you explain that Aegor is the only one of whome it is mentioned where he was raised? Why mention it for him but not for they others if it was not important?

[Shuvuuia]

On 12.01.2017 at 11:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

Well, because George decided that he would only mention people the reader of ADwD would know existed? We had no clue about Bloodraven's sisters at this point. And women are usually overlooked/not mentioned all that often (I'm looking at you, Lyarra Stark).

 I mean yes, that's totally true, that's why i personally find it hard to analize the cases like this. (more about that below)

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I addition, you are over-interpreting things there. Bloodraven doesn't necessarily talk about dead people he had some conflicts with. Bran himself intuitively looks for Ned when he first connects with the weirwoods. That doesn't mean he is haunted by Ned in some negative fashion, it means that he misses his father and would prefer it that he wasn't dead. Just as Brynden might still miss his elder brother/surrogate father, Daeron II. Who knows? Perhaps Bloodraven was at his bedside and wept when the Great Spring Sickness took Daeron II in 209 AC? That's not far-fetched. He was in the capital when his brother and king died.

He could even believe he failed Daeron II then and there because despite his magical abilities he couldn't save him from death.

hm, he could be mourning Daeron, but i read his line as very emotionally intense in a way that it is something where he an was active participant and had a choice (wooing shiera or leaving her be, hatred and wars with aegor). Daeron's death would be more passive even if he tried saving him and something where he could also blame other people/forces of nature.

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Is Shiera truly the woman he 'desired'? She is the woman he fucked, more than just once, it seems, considering that she is his paramour. She didn't marry him, true, but he did more than just desire her. George most likely chose the word 'desire' there because he already used 'love' for the relationship with the brother. But it isn't actually accurate, although it might indicate that Bloodraven did, in the end, actually not love Shiera (or get over her later in life).

I feel from that phrasing and twoiaf/ssm info on Shiera that the "desired" could mean that he wanted her to be his, but didn't really love her, more like he wanted to "conquer" her. 

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A not very likely possibility considering that love usually influences your actions to a degree. I don't see myself killing (at least) three children of a person I love. Not if I can prevent it. And my love would most likely not lead me to the conclusion that such children all have to die for 'reasons of state'.

maybe i'm a terrible person (or just because i'm an only child, lol) but i don't see how love for a sibling would necessarily prevent someone from killing their children.

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I'm not sure how Bloodraven could have known that the deaths of Daemon and his sons were necessary. That is pretty extreme. And the same goes for Aenys - the time passing between the two events wouldn't have mattered if Bloodraven was actually 'haunted' by his love for Daemon.

but if Daemon and/or his sons lived, they would provide a stronger rallying point than just Aegor, without them the rebellion is at least temporarily stunted.

idk about Aenys.

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And whether Bloodraven was a dutiful servant to the kings her served actually remains to be seen. Right now it doesn't seem as if he ever tried to usurp Maekar's place and become king himself but we'll have to wait and see how that plays out.

I don't really understand your interpretation of Bloodraven here: so, killing Daemon's children means he couldn't love Daemon, but loving Daeron means he would be up for usurping Daeron's children? (and i would say there is no evidence for that right now, only bloodravens omnious reputation. and i don't see how Maekar of all people would have kept him as his hand if there was a possibility that bloodraven was plotting against his family at any point)

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Daemon had little chance of befriending Brynden Rivers. As I've laid out above it is likely that Brynden spent most of his time at Raventree Hall during his childhood. At least during the reign of his father. Daemon Blackfyre was five years older, and would thus most likely not have been a close companion of Brynden's even if they had grown up together at court. After the great bastards all lived at court during the reign of Daeron II Aegor and Daemon grew ever closer, making it unlikely that Daemon and Brynden ever had a close connection, especially in light of Brynden's own close relationship with Daeron II. He might even have gotten Dark Sister before the Blackfyre Rebellion.

If TWoIaF had given us any hint that Brynden and Daemon were close for some time before the war I'd be the first to concede that this theory is at least plausible. But there are no such hints.

if we are speculating, then Brynden could've been hero-worshipping "ideal" fellow-bastard Daemon, like a young boy would.

And here is where i continue about why i feel it is hard to interpret it with twoiaf - which parts were already done by the time of the dance, and which came later? what was retconned and will be redone in the future stories? 

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There is no hint that he is haunted by his ghosts in equal parts, is there? Daeron II certainly could be the person who troubles him the least, followed by Aegor whom he most likely would have liked to kill before the Blackfyre Rebellion to prevent the whole thing, with Shiera being the person troubling the most because there was actually romantic love involved as far as we know.

maybe. 

i don't think Shiera would be the most troubling one though.

and actually if they are of different level of intensity, then it would support Daemon? first a woman he desired - not really that terrible from the perspective of a supernatural tree man and at least somewhat positive emotions, then - a brother he hated, stronger(?) but purely negative feelings, then - a brother he loved but killed: something good turning extremely negative.

i love, btw, how Bran is about his father that tragically died (which can support Daeron, i suppose?) , and Bloodraven starts about his paramour.

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Stannis justifies the murder of Renly, too. But this doesn't make it go away. It is a vile crime to kill your brother in Westeros, even more so if you loved the brother you killed. Continuing the trend of kinslaying but killing both your brother and your nephews isn't something you would expect from a man who loved his brother. In fact, there is no precedent for this kind of behavior in Westeros.

that's not something that one would expect, but then Bloodraven is a rather ruthless person. People do terrible things to people they love.

On 13.01.2017 at 1:28 AM, Lord Varys said:

And it operates a lot with Brynden choosing duty over love, etc. for which we have no proof, either. He could have chosen love and duty, considering that he might have both loved Daeron II as his brother and considered him the rightful king.

 

yes, but he could've also choosen his life over his love (if for example Aegor's already "poisoned" Daemon against him) or his family position - there could be many possibilities.

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Osgrey has a pretty good knowledge of Daemon. He may not have been with him in his youth but her certainly rode with him in war and was closely connected to Daemon's buddies from the Reach. He is in a much better position to know stuff about Brynden and Daemon if there was anything to know about them than Yandel is (who doesn't write a history of House Blackfyre). Ser Eustace also gives us the most detailed picture of the Redgrass Field and the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Osgrey might actually have been at court for a time in the years before the Blackfyre Rebellion broke out. He know Daeron II, too, right down to his belly. He certainly wasn't a guy who declared for the Black Dragon on a whim. He thought Daemon was the better man, and for that he must have known him reasonably well.

 

I disagree about Osgrey knowing Daemon well - for me it always seemed that his talk is intended to be part heroic myth that was created about the blackfyre cause, and half wishfull thinking. and especially i don't think he had to meet daeron in person to contrast his belly to daemon's supposed abbs.

 

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Hm. Can you (or anybody else who likes this Daemon-Bloodraven idea) perhaps also lay out why the hell you believe Bloodraven is all that much about duty? I can see how people might like to think that, but there is actually no textual evidence for it. Aside from any love Bloodraven might have had for brother X, his hatred of Bittersteel alone might have been enough to make him a firm Targaryen loyalist.

But there is now so much more that gives us the impression that Bloodraven was also emotionally connected to Daeron II.

This doesn't have to be duty in a way Stannis uses it? It can be more personal duty - to the targ dynasty - especially if you subscribe that he loved Daeron - duty to him and to his children/grandchildren.

And if he loved Daemon, it could come from the connection his mother had with Daeron, and being gratefull on her and his family behalf. I think a man who served several kings in a row and tried to do everything to keep them from being overthrown (even if his decisions were bad for the rest of the westeros) could be called dutiful. It doesn't mean that he had no other ambitions.

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Duty isn't a strong trait of Bloodraven, though. Power is, the power of the Hand of the King and the de facto king.

i don't really see it? He knows how to use his power and how to use fear, but he doesn't really come as powerhungry in D&E. And he lets Egg go instead of keeping him as a pawn at the end. 

Quote

 

The whole Night's Watch and greenseer thing he eventually does clouds are picture of the younger man, I think. Bloodraven isn't Maester Aemon who was trained from childhood and youth to be a modest dutiful servant. Brynden Rivers had his own ambitions and acquired quite a lot of power as a sorcerer, Master of Whisperers, and Hand of the King.

 

Here i agree that Bloodraven didn't have any idea about the others or even "big" magic until the wall. 

 

P.S.I think an interesting thing to consider- although it will probably quickly turn crackpot - is that Bloodraven is Bran's mentor, so at one point, depending on what Bran sees through the weirwoods, he could elaborate about his family relations to give Bran an advice, for example in context of Jon's "death". 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

No problem i forget things al the time that why i like a search of ice and fire so much

As to merry megs daughters they where given to the faith by Viserys II Aegons father so Aegon did not have a say in this.

Well, he certainly could have objected, one assumes. He was a man grown by that time. The names of those daughters strongly suggests he didn't give a damn about them. They are standard common names for girls, making it very likely that Meg chose them all.

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Belegere Otherys children are said to have been of dubieus parentage, so even Aegon probably had doubts about being the father there.

Nope, only Balerion's parentage is dubious. The girls are both Aegon's. That is most likely so that Daemon Blackfyre is unquestionably Aegon's eldest acknowledged bastard son.

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Hmmm swaddeling clothes are only used on baby's not on toddlers, by the time a child is two it can walk and talk and eat solid food, so it actually is not a that far-fetched that he could be away from his mother. That is if she was away at all, since she was a friend of Queen Naerys she might very wel have stayed as one of the companions of the Queen. Aegon did not bother himself with his wife and by extension her household, there marriage was stated to be unhappy and he did not count her among the 9 women who he said to have truly loved (this by the way is where that list of nine mistresses comes from, he had many more but these are the ones he claimes to have actually loved) He even said that she was they only women he did not enjoy sleeping with, so i do not think that they saw each other whery much he would have put her up in a part of Maegor's holdfast far from his own rooms. So Missy as a companion of the Queen would also have been in that part and not in sight all the time.

That all certainly possible but not very likely. The fact is that bastards are usually not raised at court nor by their royal/noble father. Edric, Ramsay, Larence, Mya, etc. all were raised far away from the places where their fathers lived. Jon Snow is huge exception there. Daemon Waters has the advantage of being the son of a royal princess. But Brynden and Aegor don't have that advantage.

Thus it is more likely to assume that they remained with their mothers.

Even if we go with Brynden being at court - this doesn't mean the boy would have spent time with Daemon Waters. Why should he? Why should Daena allow her son to play with this weirdo albino?

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Now if you really do not believe that any of the great bastards (exept Shiera) was raised in the red keep then how do you explain that Aegor is the only one of whome it is mentioned where he was raised? Why mention it for him but not for they others if it was not important?

Aegor isn't mentioned there because he was 'important'. He is mentioned as part of important events at court. The attempt of Lord Bracken to make Barbra the queen, and the visit to Stone Hedge which led Aegon to replace Missy with Bethany.

[direpupy]

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, he certainly could have objected, one assumes. He was a man grown by that time. The names of those daughters strongly suggests he didn't give a damn about them. They are standard common names for girls, making it very likely that Meg chose them all.

Nope, only Balerion's parentage is dubious. The girls are both Aegon's. That is most likely so that Daemon Blackfyre is unquestionably Aegon's eldest acknowledged bastard son.

That all certainly possible but not very likely. The fact is that bastards are usually not raised at court nor by their royal/noble father. Edric, Ramsay, Larence, Mya, etc. all were raised far away from the places where their fathers lived. Jon Snow is huge exception there. Daemon Waters has the advantage of being the son of a royal princess. But Brynden and Aegor don't have that advantage.

Thus it is more likely to assume that they remained with their mothers.

Even if we go with Brynden being at court - this doesn't mean the boy would have spent time with Daemon Waters. Why should he? Why should Daena allow her son to play with this weirdo albino?

Aegor isn't mentioned there because he was 'important'. He is mentioned as part of important events at court. The attempt of Lord Bracken to make Barbra the queen, and the visit to Stone Hedge which led Aegon to replace Missy with Bethany.

Objecting yes being lisened to hell no Viserys is not the kind of man that cares about his childrens objections to his desicions , he was the one that desided Aegon and Naerys had to marry even do he new they did not even like each other and that Naerys wanted to be a septa. He also can not have been oblivieus to the close bond between Naerys and Aemon yet he still incisted on her marriage to Aegon.

And as for the names al of the names of his bastards seem to have been chosen by there mothers so i do not see the significanse of that.

As for Bellegere her children you are wrong, the paternity of all three was in doubt. It is clearly stated that she gave bith to three children in the decade that she and Aegon had there on again of again fling, but it is also clearly stated that she also slept with other men during this decade and that therfore the parentage of all three was doubtfull.

I never said Aegon raised them hell he probably never came neer them, that does not mean the where not raised in kings landing, and of Aegor we know he was raised at Stone Hedge only because he is they only one of who it is mentioned where he was raised. I am not saying that Brynden was most definetly raised in the Red Keep but it is not an imposability either like you are suggesting. Also Aegon was not a normal man so he might have been more than happy to rub his bastards into the face of the wife, brother and son he did not like.

I agree that they most likely remained with there mother but most likely is not a certainty and whats more as i pointed out Missy might not have been sent away from court in wich case Brynden was never taken from his mother.

As to the part i bolded, i think your mistaken me for an other poster on this tread because i never made any statement about the relationship between Bloodraven and his varieus brothers, only about the possibility that he was raised at court. For the record i actually agree with you that Daeron was the brother he loved, because as a weak and scrawny albino he certainly does not strike me as a person of Daemons inner circle of glory seeking knights, as a matter of fact i don't even know if Bloodraven was a knight.

As for the last thing you said, the last sentence is about Aegor alone and comes afther Yandel has finished his remarkes about the fallout of the scandal surounding Barba and her father. Yandel puts that sentence there because Aegor becomes important to the history of the Blackfyre rebellions that pop up troughout the rest of the book Yandel is writing. So Aegor is important, and it is also important that he is they only one of whome Yandel tells us where he was raised even do Bloodraven is equally important in the rest of his book, why would he do that if the fact that Aegor was raised at Stone Hedge, the family castle of his mother is not a exeption instead of the rule when it came to Aegon's bastards.

[The Grey Wolf]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

I doubt we will only get conflicting sources for only some of the kings honestly. That makes no sense. Gyldayn has three primary sources for the Dance, one pro-Black, one pro-Green, and one pro-Orwyle yet for the lives of Aenys I and Maegor I he has ONLY one? Sorry but I don't buy that. As for Maegor specifically I doubt he will be a very sympathetic or empathetic character but a very dark shade of grey? Yes. Then again if GRRM once thought of writing an Aegon IV POV then I don't see why he couldn't hypothetically write a Maegor POV. Furthermore, there should be multiple sources on the lives of Aenys I and Maegor I for a few reasons:

1. Multiple people write stuff down and they usually don't agree on every point. Its just the nature of human history.

2. We know during Aegon I's reign that the first case of royal factionalism developed between the line of Rhaenys and the line of Visenya. The idea that pro-Aenys supporters wouldn't have tried to paint Maegor as a complete monster from birth or that pro-Visenya supporters wouldn't have been making up heroics for Maegor or claiming the pro-Aenys allegations were false doesn't make much sense to me.

3. The people who would be writing this stuff down would not have been unbiased. Maegor's foremost enemies were the Faith and if I had to venture the Maesters seeing as I can't imagine them taking him killing three Grand Maesters and threatening to burn Oldtown very nicely. Thus, they would have a vested interest in enlarging Maegor's negative image, both to make Jaehaerys I look better and to make the Faith Militant Uprising appear more righteous not to mention they have nothing to gain and much to lose in terms of royal favor by implying that Maegor was not as cruel as people think. Thus, they might have retroactively written Maegor as committing more atrocities than he actually did or that he was committing them from an early age.

4. Your very comment that the incident with the cat was called into question by Gyldayn as possibly slander points to the fact that there were people trying to distort the truth, however, slightly, which in turn means that there was more than one source on the time period.

5. We are missing some salacious material on Aenys's reign, mainly (as I've said repeatedly in other threads) what went on during 37-39 AC when Maegor was Hand and that needs to be explained IMO for two reasons. First, how the hell was there peace with Maegor wielding nigh-on absolute power and the overly-indecisive Aenys at the helm to reign him in? Two, those two years would be the perfect place to justify partially Gyldayn's comment in his account on the Conquest that "sporadic attempts to bring the Dornishmen into the realm would continued all through Aegon's reign and well into the reigns of his SONS" (emphasis mine). Also, Aegon the Conqueror's actual eulogy would be nice too.

Again, to be clear I'm talking about degrees. Maegor did more than anyone to make his reputation suck.

And I'm going to stop here because our discussion about F & B is starting to derail this thread. If you'd like to continue it I can start a separate thread. 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

hm, he could be mourning Daeron, but i read his line as very emotionally intense in a way that it is something where he an was active participant and had a choice (wooing shiera or leaving her be, hatred and wars with aegor). Daeron's death would be more passive even if he tried saving him and something where he could also blame other people/forces of nature.

That was just a thought. The important point is that Brynden and Bran are both mourning loved ones and looking in the past to see them, and other people they are still attached to emotionally in some way (Aegor). That doesn't mean they have to think they failed them in some way. It could also mean that, but that's not necessary.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

I feel from that phrasing and twoiaf/ssm info on Shiera that the "desired" could mean that he wanted her to be his, but didn't really love her, more like he wanted to "conquer" her.

Considering that he actually conquered her and lived with her as his paramour at the court of Aerys I I'm pretty sure the situation was much more complex.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

maybe i'm a terrible person (or just because i'm an only child, lol) but i don't see how love for a sibling would necessarily prevent someone from killing their children.

It doesn't necessarily prevent you from doing so - but it is much more likely that you are killing the children of a hated sibling, or a sibling you are more or less indifferent about rather than the children of a sibling you loved.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

but if Daemon and/or his sons lived, they would provide a stronger rallying point than just Aegor, without them the rebellion is at least temporarily stunted.

Killing the twins wasn't necessary. They were children still, and Aegor took the other five sons and the daughters with him to exile. It wouldn't have made that much of a difference if the twins had lived.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

idk about Aenys.

I don't really understand your interpretation of Bloodraven here: so, killing Daemon's children means he couldn't love Daemon, but loving Daeron means he would be up for usurping Daeron's children? (and i would say there is no evidence for that right now, only bloodravens omnious reputation. and i don't see how Maekar of all people would have kept him as his hand if there was a possibility that bloodraven was plotting against his family at any point)

I'm just saying that we don't know what happened during Aerys I's later reign. Do we know that Bloodraven didn't have a hand in Rhaegel's and Aelor's death? No, we don't. I'd not consider it very likely but who knows? Perhaps Bloodraven wanted to marry Shiera to set himself up as king after Aerys' death to eventually hand the Iron Throne to his legitimate son by Shiera? That certainly could have worked. The man was a Targaryen, too, despite the fact that went by the name Rivers.

If he ever entertained such notions nothing ever came of those, of course, but just go with the idea that he was an dutiful and loyal Hand because he never staged a coup isn't a good argument. We simply don't know enough about him and his innermost thoughts, not to mention the political situation after 211 AC.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

if we are speculating, then Brynden could've been hero-worshipping "ideal" fellow-bastard Daemon, like a young boy would.

Or not. After all, Brynden had every opportunity to befriend Daeron, the Prince of Dragonstone. Why isn't it even more likely that he 'hero-worshiped' that guy? Or, perhaps, one of the sons of Prince Daeron, Baelor or Aerys. Baelor was born in the same year as Daemon Blackfyre, and Aerys, Rhaegel, and Maekar could even be closer in age to Bloodraven.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

And here is where i continue about why i feel it is hard to interpret it with twoiaf - which parts were already done by the time of the dance, and which came later? what was retconned and will be redone in the future stories?

There is no reason to believe that the Brynden-Daemon relationship was ever retconned because there is no reason to believe George established any connection between Daemon and Brynden. Keep in mind that Bran has still no clue who this Brynden chap actually is. If the names Bittersteel, Bloodraven, Daemon Blackfyre, or Daeron II Targaryen were mentioned in that chapter Bran would know who the man was. But he doesn't as of yet.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

maybe. 

i don't think Shiera would be the most troubling one though.

That depends how their 'love story' ends. It could easily enough be a pretty bad ending.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

i love, btw, how Bran is about his father that tragically died (which can support Daeron, i suppose?) , and Bloodraven starts about his paramour.

Well, Brynden's father obviously didn't care about him. He cared about nobody but himself.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

that's not something that one would expect, but then Bloodraven is a rather ruthless person. People do terrible things to people they love.

I find it more believable that Bloodraven would treat the people he hates in such a way, not the people he loved.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

yes, but he could've also choosen his life over his love (if for example Aegor's already "poisoned" Daemon against him) or his family position - there could be many possibilities.

But we have no reason to believe that Brynden and Daemon were ever close.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

I disagree about Osgrey knowing Daemon well - for me it always seemed that his talk is intended to be part heroic myth that was created about the blackfyre cause, and half wishfull thinking. and especially i don't think he had to meet daeron in person to contrast his belly to daemon's supposed abbs.

Well, he says Daeron II had a belly that wobbled when he walked. That suggests the man saw Daeron II's belly wobble at one point. And his description of Daemon suggests he also saw that man naked, too, and we also know that Daemon promised Osgrey Coldmoat, suggesting they once talked about this.

Ser Eustace certainly wasn't Daemon's best buddy but he could have been part of Daemon's inner circle anyway. Look what kind of people gathered around Daemon II? It wasn't all great heroes at Whitewalls, and it wouldn't have been all great heroes the first time.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

This doesn't have to be duty in a way Stannis uses it? It can be more personal duty - to the targ dynasty - especially if you subscribe that he loved Daeron - duty to him and to his children/grandchildren.

Yeah, if he loved Daeron II then his actions make sense. If he didn't love Daeron II but loved Daemon then killing him and pursuing the Blackfyres for decades doesn't make much sense.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

And if he loved Daemon, it could come from the connection his mother had with Daeron, and being gratefull on her and his family behalf. I think a man who served several kings in a row and tried to do everything to keep them from being overthrown (even if his decisions were bad for the rest of the westeros) could be called dutiful. It doesn't mean that he had no other ambitions.

Still, one wonders why Brynden should care that Daeron II and his line would prevail if he was emotionally closer to Daemon Blackfyre. Nothing suggests that Brynden Rivers was legalistic weirdo like Stannis, obsessed with some law of succession that was wax in the hands of the powerful anyway. Why should he favor the Targaryens over the Blackfyres in the first place? Why is Aegor's idea that Daemon should be king wrong? Just because it was Aegor's idea?

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

i don't really see it? He knows how to use his power and how to use fear, but he doesn't really come as powerhungry in D&E. And he lets Egg go instead of keeping him as a pawn at the end. 

Egg is only Maekar's fourth son. He makes a lousy hostage. And it is a good thing to have potential ally in Maekar's camp. I agree that Bloodraven doesn't come a across as power hungry - but then, he already has all the power. He can afford to be funny and ironic in his Plumm persona.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

P.S.I think an interesting thing to consider- although it will probably quickly turn crackpot - is that Bloodraven is Bran's mentor, so at one point, depending on what Bran sees through the weirwoods, he could elaborate about his family relations to give Bran an advice, for example in context of Jon's "death". 

Bloodraven's identity certainly will come in Bran's chapters. But I doubt they will delve all that much into his youth.

 

5 hours ago, direpupy said:

Objecting yes being lisened to hell no Viserys is not the kind of man that cares about his childrens objections to his desicions , he was the one that desided Aegon and Naerys had to marry even do he new they did not even like each other and that Naerys wanted to be a septa. He also can not have been oblivieus to the close bond between Naerys and Aemon yet he still incisted on her marriage to Aegon.

That is true, but Aegon's cowardly nature comes across rather often, too. He could have stood up for his children but he pretty much behaved the same way as he did later when he delivered his mistress Lady Vaith to his father.

5 hours ago, direpupy said:

And as for the names al of the names of his bastards seem to have been chosen by there mothers so i do not see the significanse of that.

The name Aegor clearly is Valyrian. That suggests that Aegon chose it, it even seems to be a variation of his own. It is significant that Brynden and his sisters didn't get Valyrian names because that makes it more likely that their Blackwood mother chose them, just as Meg chose the names for her children.

5 hours ago, direpupy said:

As for Bellegere her children you are wrong, the paternity of all three was in doubt. It is clearly stated that she gave bith to three children in the decade that she and Aegon had there on again of again fling, but it is also clearly stated that she also slept with other men during this decade and that therfore the parentage of all three was doubtfull.

No, it is explicitly stated that only Balerion's parentage was doubtful. It is true that Bellegere and Aegon had a sort of on-off relationship yet this doesn't mean that Bellegere must have had any other lovers during the time his two daughters by her were conceived. That would be a rather short time frame in each case, and Aegon could easily enough have known for a fact that he had fathered these children.

5 hours ago, direpupy said:

I never said Aegon raised them hell he probably never came neer them, that does not mean the where not raised in kings landing, and of Aegor we know he was raised at Stone Hedge only because he is they only one of who it is mentioned where he was raised. I am not saying that Brynden was most definetly raised in the Red Keep but it is not an imposability either like you are suggesting. Also Aegon was not a normal man so he might have been more than happy to rub his bastards into the face of the wife, brother and son he did not like.

Well, the question is whether Missy would have liked to give her children up to Aegon's whims and games after he had discarded her. I find that unlikely, just as I find the idea unlikely that Missy would have remained at court thereafter.

5 hours ago, direpupy said:

As to the part i bolded, i think your mistaken me for an other poster on this tread because i never made any statement about the relationship between Bloodraven and his varieus brothers, only about the possibility that he was raised at court. For the record i actually agree with you that Daeron was the brother he loved, because as a weak and scrawny albino he certainly does not strike me as a person of Daemons inner circle of glory seeking knights, as a matter of fact i don't even know if Bloodraven was a knight.

Well, Bloodraven had a Valyrian steel sword and was a very capable warrior in his own right. He fought two duels with Bittersteel and seemed to have won the second.

5 hours ago, direpupy said:

As for the last thing you said, the last sentence is about Aegor alone and comes afther Yandel has finished his remarkes about the fallout of the scandal surounding Barba and her father. Yandel puts that sentence there because Aegor becomes important to the history of the Blackfyre rebellions that pop up troughout the rest of the book Yandel is writing. So Aegor is important, and it is also important that he is they only one of whome Yandel tells us where he was raised even do Bloodraven is equally important in the rest of his book, why would he do that if the fact that Aegor was raised at Stone Hedge, the family castle of his mother is not a exeption instead of the rule when it came to Aegon's bastards.

Sure, later on Aegor becomes important, but he isn't as a babe and also not when he is at Stone Hedge in 177 AC.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I doubt we will only get conflicting sources for only some of the kings honestly. That makes no sense. Gyldayn has three primary sources for the Dance, one pro-Black, one pro-Green, and one pro-Orwyle yet for the lives of Aenys I and Maegor I he has ONLY one?

That is actually not really true. Eustace is somewhat biased towards the Greens (due to the fact that he anointed Aegon II), but there is little reason to believe Mushroom was actually a Black supporter.

'The Sons of the Dragon' doesn't really cite any sources for Aenys' reign. We just get talk, and Gyldayn's assessment of some claims, but he doesn't cite any contemporary historians or other primary sources like, say, the account of some Grand Maester or anything of that sort.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Sorry but I don't buy that. As for Maegor specifically I doubt he will be a very sympathetic or empathetic character but a very dark shade of grey? Yes.

He already is that if you want to interpret his campaign against the Faith as a necessary evil to fully establish the power of the Targaryen monarchy.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Then again if GRRM once thought of writing an Aegon IV POV then I don't see why he couldn't hypothetically write a Maegor POV. Furthermore, there should be multiple sources on the lives of Aenys I and Maegor I for a few reasons:

1. Multiple people write stuff down and they usually don't agree on every point. Its just the nature of human history.

Sure, but we won't get as detailed a history on his reign than we got an account on the Dance. Not unless George greatly reworks what he has already written on the Targaryen kings. He certainly could do that, though.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

2. We know during Aegon I's reign that the first case of royal factionalism developed between the line of Rhaenys and the line of Visenya. The idea that pro-Aenys supporters wouldn't have tried to paint Maegor as a complete monster from birth or that pro-Visenya supporters wouldn't have been making up heroics for Maegor or claiming the pro-Aenys allegations were false doesn't make much sense to me.

But 'Fire and Blood' surely isn't going to be some history book based on political propaganda. It is written by a professional historian who will be able to ignore the sources who clearly are too biased to be good sources. Those he would most likely not even cite.

There should still be a lot of more or less unbiased sources, like from people writing letters to friends and the like who were never supposed to be read by the general public. Not to mention reports and accounts from people not affiliated with either Alyssa Velaryon/Aenys or Maegor/Visenya.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

3. The people who would be writing this stuff down would not have been unbiased. Maegor's foremost enemies were the Faith and if I had to venture the Maesters seeing as I can't imagine them taking him killing three Grand Maesters and threatening to burn Oldtown very nicely. Thus, they would have a vested interest in enlarging Maegor's negative image, both to make Jaehaerys I look better and to make the Faith Militant Uprising appear more righteous not to mention they have nothing to gain and much to lose in terms of royal favor by implying that Maegor was not as cruel as people think. Thus, they might have retroactively written Maegor as committing more atrocities than he actually did or that he was committing them from an early age.

There would be ways too see through that. Gyldayn could do a lot of source criticism off page in his study, dismissing accounts that sound like slander and contain details that are not corroborated by other accounts who should by all means include them.

But then, it seems very hard for Jaehaerys I to not look good (he was good) and for Maegor to not look cruel (he was cruel). And even Yandel makes it clear that Faith Militant was a problem. Nobody condemns the Targaryen for warring against them, nor is Jaehaerys I unpopular from taking away the Faith's right to conduct trials.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

4. Your very comment that the incident with the cat was called into question by Gyldayn as possibly slander points to the fact that there were people trying to distort the truth, however, slightly, which in turn means that there was more than one source on the time period.

Sure, but that source isn't named, nor does Gyldayn give a reason as to why he considers this slander. Possibly because it is only mentioned in one account and doesn't sound very convincing.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

5. We are missing some salacious material on Aenys's reign, mainly (as I've said repeatedly in other threads) what went on during 37-39 AC when Maegor was Hand and that needs to be explained IMO for two reasons. First, how the hell was there peace with Maegor wielding nigh-on absolute power and the overly-indecisive Aenys at the helm to reign him in? Two, those two years would be the perfect place to justify partially Gyldayn's comment in his account on the Conquest that "sporadic attempts to bring the Dornishmen into the realm would continued all through Aegon's reign and well into the reigns of his SONS" (emphasis mine). Also, Aegon the Conqueror's actual eulogy would be nice too.

'The Sons of the Dragon' doesn't discuss those two years, but Maegor being Hand doesn't mean he had nearly absolute power. At that point the position of Hand wasn't clearly defined yet, and the king's power was even more absolute and his word much more relevant in the day-to-day affairs. That was the problem of Aenys' reign, that the man always changed his mind when he spoke to some adviser. If only Maegor had had Aenys' ear then he would have been pretty powerful but that's clearly not the case. Alyssa had his ear, the Grand Maester, and other courtiers as well.

I actually expect Maegor not to have been a good orator/public speaker, so one imagines that his eulogy was clumsy and awkward, especially if they hadn't been all that close emotionally.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Again, to be clear I'm talking about degrees. Maegor did more than anyone to make his reputation suck.

Maegor actually nearly destroyed the Targaryen dynasty. Had he gotten his hands of Jaehaerys, too, he would have killed him, and then the dynasty would have died with him, and the Seven Kingdoms would have fractured again upon his death. The idea to include some first hand source material, like the eulogy is pretty good, actually. Letters, decrees, and other legal documents could be interesting inserts, too.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

And I'm going to stop here because our discussion about F & B is starting to derail this thread. If you'd like to continue it I can start a separate thread. 

Be my guest. 

[direpupy]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

1)That is true, but Aegon's cowardly nature comes across rather often, too. He could have stood up for his children but he pretty much behaved the same way as he did later when he delivered his mistress Lady Vaith to his father.

2)The name Aegor clearly is Valyrian. That suggests that Aegon chose it, it even seems to be a variation of his own. It is significant that Brynden and his sisters didn't get Valyrian names because that makes it more likely that their Blackwood mother chose them, just as Meg chose the names for her children.

3)No, it is explicitly stated that only Balerion's parentage was doubtful. It is true that Bellegere and Aegon had a sort of on-off relationship yet this doesn't mean that Bellegere must have had any other lovers during the time his two daughters by her were conceived. That would be a rather short time frame in each case, and Aegon could easily enough have known for a fact that he had fathered these children.

4)Well, the question is whether Missy would have liked to give her children up to Aegon's whims and games after he had discarded her. I find that unlikely, just as I find the idea unlikely that Missy would have remained at court thereafter.

5)Well, Bloodraven had a Valyrian steel sword and was a very capable warrior in his own right. He fought two duels with Bittersteel and seemed to have won the second.

6)Sure, later on Aegor becomes important, but he isn't as a babe and also not when he is at Stone Hedge in 177 AC.

 

1) So that only means im right he did not make the desicion and therfore whe can not use that as a example of what Aegon ussually did when it came to his bastards after no longer sleeping with there mother.

2 ) And the Brackens are butkissers who where even hoping for a royal marriage, so giving the child of there affair a name resembling his fathers is just a part of the sort of butkissing people did when it came to kings, as evidenst by the many people in the books who have been named after kings and princes, so no Aegon did not likely name Aegor himself.

3) sorry but you are dead wrong, read the sentence again it clearly states that the parentage of al three was in doubt.

4) You are free to disagree but you have not provided any evidence that she did not stay at court, and even do she might not have stayed  the change that she did is equally great. I guess this is just one of those points where neither side can prove what it believes and whe are just going to have to agree to disagree.

5) This is one of my favorite things about Bloodraven that he is in part a reverence to an other albino fantasy karakter Elric of Melnibone. A albino is always fisicaly weak and sickely they never become whery big or strong it is just part of there condition, and GRRM seems to know this he puts this in the discription that he gave to the artist AMOK when this artist was making portrets of the great bastards discribing him as small and scrawny. Now how is it then that he can fight and draw a longbow for wich you need a lot of strengt? Well like Elric, Bloodraven is a sorcerer who can make things like potions to compensate for this. However Bloodraven would not yet know how to make these when he was young so as a child he would have been weak and sickly like al albino's.

6) so? Yandel lives long after everybody of that time is dead, he already knows Aegor will become important to the story he is writing so his writing already reflects this in earlier mentions. The fact still remains that he is they only one of whome Yandel tells us where he was raised and you still have not answered my question why he would do that if it was not important or a exeption to the rule.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Do the facts that the Unworthy 1) granted Blackfyre to Daemon, 2) traveled to Stone Hedge to see Aegor after Daeron and Aemon had forced out Aegor and Barba, 3) bestowed incomes on Daemon and Aegor, as well Bloodraven, who was presumably residing at the Red Keep, and 4) legitimized any and all his natural children suggest that he did love them, at least after his own fashion? 

Assuming Aegon, Aemon, Aemond, Maegor, etc. are Valyrian, how is the name Aegor not Valyrian? 

The statement about doubtful paternity under Bellegere and whether it applies to Balerion or all of her children is debatable. Lawyers make a lot of money over such disputes. 

Missy was not without friends and support when it came to the whims of the Unworthy. In the absence of clear indication to the contrary, I would assume that the principal residence of Missy and her children was the Red Keep, but that they spent considerable time at Raventree Hall. 

I don't think the George has ever acknowledged the obvious influence of Elric of Melnibone. I am thinking this has to do with politics. In any event, that Bloodraven was able to be trained to arms, presumably serving as a page and squire before becoming a knight, suggests that he might have had sorcerous help from an early age. Those Blackwoods sure are mysterious. 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

1) So that only means im right he did not make the desicion and therfore whe can not use that as a example of what Aegon ussually did when it came to his bastards after no longer sleeping with there mother.

But we have no reason to believe he ever raised one of his natural children at court. All we know is that his children lived with their mothers, not their father. And the same goes for other noble and royal bastards, Jon Snow excluded.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

2 ) And the Brackens are butkissers who where even hoping for a royal marriage, so giving the child of there affair a name resembling his fathers is just a part of the sort of butkissing people did when it came to kings, as evidenst by the many people in the books who have been named after kings and princes, so no Aegon did not likely name Aegor himself.

It is more likely than in the cases of the other children.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

3) sorry but you are dead wrong, read the sentence again it clearly states that the parentage of al three was in doubt.

I read it so that only the parentage of the boy is unclear. Even if not, there is no reason to believe that Aegon did not believe that Bellegere's children were his seed. After all, we only get Yandel interpreting historical gossip there.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

4) You are free to disagree but you have not provided any evidence that she did not stay at court, and even do she might not have stayed  the change that she did is equally great. I guess this is just one of those points where neither side can prove what it believes and whe are just going to have to agree to disagree.

It is not equally great because it is up to the king to decide whether a former mistress can remain at court or not. We see a similar thing with Joanna Lannister later on. She might be the Hand's wife but if the queen no longer cares for your service you have to leave court permanently. If that's the case then Missy might simply have become an unwanted person at court when Aegon decided he would no longer fuck her.

And we can also be reasonably sure that Bethany and her father would have done everything in their power to ensure that Missy is banished from court, just as Barbra was. Convincing Aegon to replace Missy's cunt with Bethany's wouldn't have been enough. Keep in mind that Missy was essentially supplanted during that visit to Stone Hedge - neither Daeron nor Naerys are likely to have been there, preventing them from interfering in what had transpired there.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

5) This is one of my favorite things about Bloodraven that he is in part a reverence to an other albino fantasy karakter Elric of Melnibone. A albino is always fisicaly weak and sickely they never become whery big or strong it is just part of there condition, and GRRM seems to know this he puts this in the discription that he gave to the artist AMOK when this artist was making portrets of the great bastards discribing him as small and scrawny. Now how is it then that he can fight and draw a longbow for wich you need a lot of strengt? Well like Elric, Bloodraven is a sorcerer who can make things like potions to compensate for this. However Bloodraven would not yet know how to make these when he was young so as a child he would have been weak and sickly like al albino's.

I don't buy that at all. I think George had actually no clue about albinos. Albinos usually have troubles with their eyes, yet Bloodraven is a bloody super bowman? Not very realistic. Bloodraven is also a strong warrior. He might not be as physically powerful as wither Daemon or Aegor, but he must be pretty good or else he would never have gotten Blackfyre.

The idea that magic is the answer to Bloodraven's non-existing physical conditions is not very convincing to me. It is much more likely that albinism isn't that bad in Martinworld as it is in our world.

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

6) so? Yandel lives long after everybody of that time is dead, he already knows Aegor will become important to the story he is writing so his writing already reflects this in earlier mentions. The fact still remains that he is they only one of whome Yandel tells us where he was raised and you still have not answered my question why he would do that if it was not important or a exeption to the rule.

Yandel doesn't answer that question. He states that Barbra and the bastard had to go and that Aegor was at Stone Hedge in 177 AC. That doesn't mean he was there the entire time. We can reasonably assume that Aegor was there the entire time but we cannot know that for sure.

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Do the facts that the Unworthy 1) granted Blackfyre to Daemon, 2) traveled to Stone Hedge to see Aegor after Daeron and Aemon had forced out Aegor and Barba, 3) bestowed incomes on Daemon and Aegor, as well Bloodraven, who was presumably residing at the Red Keep, and 4) legitimized any and all his natural children suggest that he did love them, at least after his own fashion? 

I'd not say so. Edric Storm seems to have had 'certain incomes' as well. Would you say Robert loved him 'after his own fashion' as well? I don't think so.

Aegon used some of his bastards as tools against his legitimate son and heir, that's all. And visiting Aegor in 177 AC could actually have been part of that. He may have wanted to check on him to check whether he could make that brat his heir instead of Daeron at some point in the future.

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Missy was not without friends and support when it came to the whims of the Unworthy. In the absence of clear indication to the contrary, I would assume that the principal residence of Missy and her children was the Red Keep, but that they spent considerable time at Raventree Hall. 

Well, we have no reason to believe they traveled back and forth all that much, especially not while Missy was Aegon's mistress. Later on there could have been some visits. I'm not opposed to the idea that Aegon himself checked on his children by Missy or invited them to court for a visit after he had banished the Brackens again. And Aegor may also have accompanied his grandfather and aunt to court only to see himself banished again after the Toyne scandal.

[direpupy]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

1)But we have no reason to believe he ever raised one of his natural children at court. All we know is that his children lived with their mothers, not their father. And the same goes for other noble and royal bastards, Jon Snow excluded.

2)It is more likely than in the cases of the other children.

3)I read it so that only the parentage of the boy is unclear. Even if not, there is no reason to believe that Aegon did not believe that Bellegere's children were his seed. After all, we only get Yandel interpreting historical gossip there.

4)It is not equally great because it is up to the king to decide whether a former mistress can remain at court or not. We see a similar thing with Joanna Lannister later on. She might be the Hand's wife but if the queen no longer cares for your service you have to leave court permanently. If that's the case then Missy might simply have become an unwanted person at court when Aegon decided he would no longer fuck her.

5)And we can also be reasonably sure that Bethany and her father would have done everything in their power to ensure that Missy is banished from court, just as Barbra was. Convincing Aegon to replace Missy's cunt with Bethany's wouldn't have been enough. Keep in mind that Missy was essentially supplanted during that visit to Stone Hedge - neither Daeron nor Naerys are likely to have been there, preventing them from interfering in what had transpired there.

6)I don't buy that at all. I think George had actually no clue about albinos. Albinos usually have troubles with their eyes, yet Bloodraven is a bloody super bowman? Not very realistic. Bloodraven is also a strong warrior. He might not be as physically powerful as wither Daemon or Aegor, but he must be pretty good or else he would never have gotten Blackfyre.

The idea that magic is the answer to Bloodraven's non-existing physical conditions is not very convincing to me. It is much more likely that albinism isn't that bad in Martinworld as it is in our world.

7)Yandel doesn't answer that question. He states that Barbra and the bastard had to go and that Aegor was at Stone Hedge in 177 AC. That doesn't mean he was there the entire time. We can reasonably assume that Aegor was there the entire time but we cannot know that for sure.

1) whe also have no reason to asumme he did not, and as for bastards not being raised among there noble parents family Joy Hill is raised in Casterly Rock, Aurane Waters grew up on Driftmark and Ser Rolland Storm actually served his brother Bryce Caron at Nightsong and last but not least Harry Rivers grew up at Stone hedge actively claimed as a son by his father Jonos Bracken. There is ample evidence that sending a bastard away is entierly up to the noble parent itself and that there are those who do not send them away.

2) There is a chance but honestly not much more then that and seeing that they others are all namend by there mothers why would it be different for Aegor.

3) I never said Aegon did not believe the where his, i said that the parentage of all three was in doubt. Who did the doubting is a entirely different matter.

4) Joanna was send away in order to protect her from more advances by Aerys, the queen dismissing her from service is just a good excuse (probably concoted by Tywin) to get away. As wife of the hand she certainly could have stayed she just would not have been welkom in the queens private apartments anymore. Aegon not wanting to fuck Missy is not really a reason to send her away because then they would have had to send away every servant girl he fucked as well not whery likely.

5) Sure does not mean they succedet in doing so. As to the visit to Stone Hedge Missy would not have been there Aegon went there to see Aegor, do you really think Missy was going to come along to the castle of the people who hated her the most. She would have stayed in Kings Landing so Naerys most certainly would have been there to protect her when Aegon arrived back with his new lover, and Aemon was also still alive at this point and a friend of Missy, and Daeron would if he was at Dragonstone have come to Kings Landing because a new misstres means political upheaval and he would have wanted to be at court to make sure his friends at court (all of them not just Missy) where save.

6) clasic Lord Varys i point to something GRRM actually said and you come with "i think" stop thinking you know more about the world then its actuall creator, he actually says he is the scrawny and weak one of the great bastards. Also your personall dislike of magic does not mean that magic is not important or has a large roll to play.

7) From TWOIAF: The boy, raised at Stone Hedge by the Brackens, was called Aegor Rivers, but in time became known as Bittersteel.
What part of this sentence do you not understand? We are explisitly told he was raised at Stone Hedge so Yandel does answer that question.

And you are still avoiding my question why would Yandel only mention where Aegor was raised and not mention this for they others if it was not important and a exeption to the rule for the Great Bastards?