Bloodraven's relations with Daeron II

[direpupy]

20 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't think the George has ever acknowledged the obvious influence of Elric of Melnibone. I am thinking this has to do with politics. In any event, that Bloodraven was able to be trained to arms, presumably serving as a page and squire before becoming a knight, suggests that he might have had sorcerous help from an early age. Those Blackwoods sure are mysterious. 

Or copyright infringment but i personnaly am not sure he was knight he might have been do, i just don't know because whe are never told if he is.

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

1) whe also have no reason to asumme he did not, and as for bastards not being raised among there noble parents family Joy Hill is raised in Casterly Rock, Aurane Waters grew up on Driftmark and Ser Rolland Storm actually served his brother Bryce Caron at Nightsong and last but not least Harry Rivers grew up at Stone hedge actively claimed as a son by his father Jonos Bracken. There is ample evidence that sending a bastard away is entierly up to the noble parent itself and that there are those who do not send them away.

We don't know whether Joy Hill was also born at Casterly Rock. Could very well. Her mother could even have been Gerion's permanent mistress. Or she might have been a serving woman living at Casterly Rock. Aurane Waters is the Bastard of Driftmark. That doesn't mean he grew up on the island or in a Velaryon castle. His brother Lord Monford might only called upon him later as Roose did with Ramsay. While we don't know who his mother was this is baseless speculation.

In any case, growing up as royal bastard at court doesn't mean you have a prominent place there. And the same goes for noble bastards. Even if we knew that all of Aegon's bastard had lived in KL or even the Red Keep itself, we would still have no idea what that actually meant. They could have had a lot of privileges or they could have lived barely better than a squire or household knight. Daemon Blackfyre has two Targaryen parents and could at best expect to live the life of a landed knight.

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

2) There is a chance but honestly not much more then that and seeing that they others are all namend by there mothers why would it be different for Aegor.

Because of the name itself.

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

3) I never said Aegon did not believe the where his, i said that the parentage of all three was in doubt. Who did the doubting is a entirely different matter.

The books themselves makes it clear that the Black Pearl lineage goes back to Bellegere and Aegon the Unworthy. In that sense it is ridiculous to insist that the parentage of the eldest girl is in doubt because it is clearly not in doubt when the Black Pearl lineage is discussed in the books.

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

4) Joanna was send away in order to protect her from more advances by Aerys, the queen dismissing her from service is just a good excuse (probably concoted by Tywin) to get away.

That is speculation without textual evidence to support it. All we know is that Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister and that she left court thereafter.

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

As wife of the hand she certainly could have stayed she just would not have been welkom in the queens private apartments anymore.

No, if you are servant of the queen and the queen throws you out you are in disgrace. You no longer have the right to attend formal state banquets and other ceremonies where the Hand would normally be accompanied by his wife. The royals decides whom they want on their feasts, not some neutral protocol. And Tywin most likely would have preferred it if his young wife remained at his side. They had just gotten married and one assumes that Tywin was more interested in marital sex in his twenties than later in his life. His job demanded that he stay in KL most of the time, so his wife should have been there with him. Just as Lysa was with Jon Arryn.

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Aegon not wanting to fuck Missy is not really a reason to send her away because then they would have had to send away every servant girl he fucked as well not whery likely.

That makes no sense. Missy was one of his official mistresses. She had had a role at court, almost an official position. She was very much a second queen like all of Aegon's mistresses during his reign were. If she had remained at court she would have remained a rival of Bethany and any other future mistress. Neither of them would have liked that.

Oh, and do you know how Aegon the Unworthy treated all the serving women he fucked? No you don't. So that's not even an argument. Even more so since Aegon has no reason to be consistent in his behavior. He could very well treat special women like his mistresses differently than some woman he fucked whose name he never knew.

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

5) Sure does not mean they succedet in doing so. As to the visit to Stone Hedge Missy would not have been there Aegon went there to see Aegor, do you really think Missy was going to come along to the castle of the people who hated her the most.

Sure. If Aegon had wanted her to come she would have been forced to come. And during a visit to Stone Hedge they could also have visited other castles in the region - you know, like Raventree Hall which isn't that far away. Considering that Aegon most likely had no intention to replace Missy at Stone Hedge it is actually not unlikely that he took her along. The point of an official mistress is to entertain the king.

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

She would have stayed in Kings Landing so Naerys most certainly would have been there to protect her when Aegon arrived back with his new lover, and Aemon was also still alive at this point and a friend of Missy, and Daeron would if he was at Dragonstone have come to Kings Landing because a new misstres means political upheaval and he would have wanted to be at court to make sure his friends at court (all of them not just Missy) where save.

The fact that this is a possibility doesn't make it likely. There is no reason to believe those people could have forced Aegon to allow Missy to stay at court if he wanted them to send away.

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

6) clasic Lord Varys i point to something GRRM actually said and you come with "i think" stop thinking you know more about the world then its actuall creator, he actually says he is the scrawny and weak one of the great bastards. Also your personall dislike of magic does not mean that magic is not important or has a large roll to play.

LOL, if magic is your way to explain away alls inconsistencies there is no need for a discussion. There is no reason to believe that magic can help you to get physically stronger in Westeros or better your eye sight. To make a convincing argument you would have give evidence that spells exist that could help Bloodraven with that. But to my knowledge no such spells are ever mentioned. In Amok's picture Brynden is less impressive than his half-brothers yet he is by no means a weak cripple like Tyrion.

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

7) From TWOIAF: The boy, raised at Stone Hedge by the Brackens, was called Aegor Rivers, but in time became known as Bittersteel.
What part of this sentence do you not understand? We are explisitly told he was raised at Stone Hedge so Yandel does answer that question.

Well, does this then mean that the boy remained at Stone Hedge until he became a man grown at his 16th nameday? No, because we know that all the great bastards were trained at arms by Fireball in the Red Keep. That would mean that Bittersteel eventually was allowed to come to court, presumably at the beginning of the reign of Daeron II because it makes no sense to assume Aegon was granting the Brackens any favors after the Toyne affair.

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

And you are still avoiding my question why would Yandel only mention where Aegor was raised and not mention this for they others if it was not important and a exeption to the rule for the Great Bastards?

That isn't even a question. I see no 'rule for the great bastards' and thus also no exception. Yandel mentioning something doesn't establish some rule.

[direpupy]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

1)We don't know whether Joy Hill was also born at Casterly Rock. Could very well. Her mother could even have been Gerion's permanent mistress. Or she might have been a serving woman living at Casterly Rock. Aurane Waters is the Bastard of Driftmark. That doesn't mean he grew up on the island or in a Velaryon castle. His brother Lord Monford might only called upon him later as Roose did with Ramsay. While we don't know who his mother was this is baseless speculation.

2)In any case, growing up as royal bastard at court doesn't mean you have a prominent place there. And the same goes for noble bastards. Even if we knew that all of Aegon's bastard had lived in KL or even the Red Keep itself, we would still have no idea what that actually meant. They could have had a lot of privileges or they could have lived barely better than a squire or household knight. Daemon Blackfyre has two Targaryen parents and could at best expect to live the life of a landed knight.

3)Because of the name itself.

4)The books themselves makes it clear that the Black Pearl lineage goes back to Bellegere and Aegon the Unworthy. In that sense it is ridiculous to insist that the parentage of the eldest girl is in doubt because it is clearly not in doubt when the Black Pearl lineage is discussed in the books.

5)That is speculation without textual evidence to support it. All we know is that Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister and that she left court thereafter.

6)No, if you are servant of the queen and the queen throws you out you are in disgrace. You no longer have the right to attend formal state banquets and other ceremonies where the Hand would normally be accompanied by his wife. The royals decides whom they want on their feasts, not some neutral protocol. And Tywin most likely would have preferred it if his young wife remained at his side. They had just gotten married and one assumes that Tywin was more interested in marital sex in his twenties than later in his life. His job demanded that he stay in KL most of the time, so his wife should have been there with him. Just as Lysa was with Jon Arryn.

7)That makes no sense. Missy was one of his official mistresses. She had had a role at court, almost an official position. She was very much a second queen like all of Aegon's mistresses during his reign were. If she had remained at court she would have remained a rival of Bethany and any other future mistress. Neither of them would have liked that.

8)Oh, and do you know how Aegon the Unworthy treated all the serving women he fucked? No you don't. So that's not even an argument. Even more so since Aegon has no reason to be consistent in his behavior. He could very well treat special women like his mistresses differently than some woman he fucked whose name he never knew.

9)Sure. If Aegon had wanted her to come she would have been forced to come. And during a visit to Stone Hedge they could also have visited other castles in the region - you know, like Raventree Hall which isn't that far away. Considering that Aegon most likely had no intention to replace Missy at Stone Hedge it is actually not unlikely that he took her along. The point of an official mistress is to entertain the king.

10)The fact that this is a possibility doesn't make it likely. There is no reason to believe those people could have forced Aegon to allow Missy to stay at court if he wanted them to send away.

11)LOL, if magic is your way to explain away alls inconsistencies there is no need for a discussion. There is no reason to believe that magic can help you to get physically stronger in Westeros or better your eye sight. To make a convincing argument you would have give evidence that spells exist that could help Bloodraven with that. But to my knowledge no such spells are ever mentioned. In Amok's picture Brynden is less impressive than his half-brothers yet he is by no means a weak cripple like Tyrion.

12)Well, does this then mean that the boy remained at Stone Hedge until he became a man grown at his 16th nameday? No, because we know that all the great bastards were trained at arms by Fireball in the Red Keep. That would mean that Bittersteel eventually was allowed to come to court, presumably at the beginning of the reign of Daeron II because it makes no sense to assume Aegon was granting the Brackens any favors after the Toyne affair.

13)That isn't even a question. I see no 'rule for the great bastards' and thus also no exception. Yandel mentioning something doesn't establish some rule.

1)I was not talking of where they were born but where they live and grew up (Joy is specificlay mentioned to have been lonely since her father died so her mother is not even in the picture), which was wat we where talking about, you are trying to change the subject her please do not do that.

2)I never said they had a prominent place there that was not the discussion, the discussion was wheter ore not they actually lived there. Again you trying to change the subject.

3) Which can also be explaned by the Brackens buttkissing a fairly normal practice as evidenst by the many people with Targaryen names in other noble houses.

4) No the books say that it is said she her liniage goes back to Aegon not that this is a certainty.

5) So is most of what you say which makes this a rather odd accusation on your part.

6) Now you are projecting 16th and 17th century courtprotocol on a medieval court so no this is not the case at all.

7) So who said they had to like it? thats really a non argument right there.

8)Glad you admit that Aegon was eratic in his behavieur because you just admitted he did not always do the same thing to all his mistresses. Like for instance send them away after stopping to sleep with them, which is what you have been claiming up to now.

9) Well that aswers my question you do think that Missy was stupid enough to enter the castle of the people who hated her the most. Personnaly i do not think this wery likely.

10) you mean the same people who forced him to send Barba away? Yes they most certainly where capable of forcing him to do things he did not want to do.

11) No it is not a explanation for al inconsitencies at all nor did i claim that it was. But Bloodraven is a noted sorcerer and you know "if the shoe fits" And in Amok's picture they are al adults so this would be after he started to use magic to beef himself up.

12) No it does not mean he stayed ther to his 16th nameday because Aegon IV died when he was 12 and like you say Daeron had all the Great Bastards raised and trained at court after his fathers dead. Butt until his fathers dead he was raised at Stone Hedge and why mention this if they other Great Bastards where not unlike him allowed to stay at court from birth.

13) Yes it is a question. With rule i do not mean some formal rule that is writen down, i mean wat Aegon as a person would normally do with his bastards. And the fact that Aegor is they only who is mentioned to have been raised at the seat of his mothers house suggest that this was not what normally happend.