Do Lannisters ever pay their debts?

[MinotaurWarrior]

Tywin's a creditor, not a debtor

The Lannisters bring the crown into default

Tyrion acknowledges that he still owes Mord, but never makes any effort to pay him the remainder. Nor does he give the Vale to the mountain clans, even though Lannisters give out other empty titles.

Nobody ever fulfils their promises to Shae. Janos never gets what he's promised.

Jaime never gives Cat her daughters. It's not his fault or anything, but it's a debt unpaid.

So, do the Lannisters ever pay their debts?

[James Steller]

It's more of a veiled threat than a spoken truth about how all Lannisters behave. It's not like Shireen Baratheon exemplifies a stag declaring that theirs is the fury, nor do you actually expect Kevan to roar like a lion.

[MinotaurWarrior]

10 minutes ago, James Steller said:

It's more of a veiled threat than a spoken truth about how all Lannisters behave. It's not like Shireen Baratheon exemplifies a stag declaring that theirs is the fury, nor do you actually expect Kevan to roar like a lion.

But, I mean, Baratheons have been furious before. And Lannisters definitely have expected people to listen to them.

I get your point that house words aren't some magical binding oath. I'm just amazed at how ill-fitting the Lannister unofficial motto is. Shoulda gone with "Ask the Reynes." 

[Winter's Breath]

perhaps GRMM has something planned? There are a lot of small sayings that could end up significant, like how many times the Bear and the Maiden Fair are paralleled. I'm still waiting on something to do with the Dornishman's wife. So perhaps we await some giant debt paid/unpaid?

[Yollo/Hugor Hill/Tyrion]

59 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Tyrion acknowledges that he still owes Mord, but never makes any effort to pay him the remainder. Nor does he give the Vale to the mountain clans, even though Lannisters give out other empty titles

I always had the impression that when Tyrion said that to Mord it meant he owed him a great deal of pain and suffering for his treatment seeing as he had already paid him all the gold he promised and Mort was just too stupid to realize that

 

[Lost Umber]

1 hour ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Tywin's a creditor, not a debtor

The Lannisters bring the crown into default

Tyrion acknowledges that he still owes Mord, but never makes any effort to pay him the remainder. Nor does he give the Vale to the mountain clans, even though Lannisters give out other empty titles.

Nobody ever fulfils their promises to Shae. Janos never gets what he's promised.

Jaime never gives Cat her daughters. It's not his fault or anything, but it's a debt unpaid.

So, do the Lannisters ever pay their debts?

Tyrion did give Mord gold. I'd expect he'll have more payment coming.

He gave the the clans the tools to fight for the Vale. He was never going "give" them the Vale  that was dramatics  

Slynt gets Harrenhal and sent to the wall. 

Jaime sends out Brienne to find Cat's daughters. It's a work in progress. 

Shae was paid for her service too  

The Lannisters pay their debts but they do so as they see fit. It doesn't always work out well for the creditor. Ask Symon Silver Tongue. Their credo is both a promise and a threat. 

[Lost Umber]

Nurse from ADWD is another example. Death by mushroom. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I always got the impression that it was a genuine promise of trustworthiness prior to Tywin, at which point it took on a sinister edge.

I mean, these people do own gold mines and were once petty kings too, so presumably they once had the job of backstopping currency and such, it must have been important for them to be seen as honouring their obligations.

[Lost Umber]

25 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I always got the impression that it was a genuine promise of trustworthiness prior to Tywin, at which point it took on a sinister edge.

I mean, these people do own gold mines and were once petty kings too, so presumably they once had the job of backstopping currency and such, it must have been important for them to be seen as honouring their obligations.

Maybe... But from their histories in AWOIAF, their m.o. seems to be more of a "don't fuck with us" kind of thing. 

[The Wolves]

Tywin paid his when Tyrion put the arrow through his gut. 

[Walda]

Yeah, I've wondered about this too. Particularly the bit where Cersei defaulted on the Iron Bank (although, maybe as a Baratheon, she doesn't have to pay her debts anymore).

But more particularily with Tyrion - he really doesn't mind promising big and delivering not much. He did promise the mountain clans the Vale of Arryn, and while they have the weapons (from Tywin, who confirmed he would underwrite that Tyrion promise, and who notably did not promise them any spoils if they helped him win the Battle of the Green Fork), they are still living furtively, harried and beaten back by the Lords of the Vale.

Tyrion has also promised big to the Golden Company, who never break a contract. Shae was not properly paid for her services, and in fact, would not have had a motive to seek out Tywin if it wasn't for the fact that she had no income and her clothes and jewels were in the chamber of the hand in a large wood-and-iron chest had been placed against the wall directly under the crossbow. (I suspect Varys was Tywin's interior decorator, as Shae could only have had access to the tunnel via him).

It could be a sign that Tyrion is not a Lannister but I think there might be more than just that. After all, if you look at the Tully 'Family, Duty, Honor' thing, and see Catelyn setting up a war, her sister sitting in the Eyrie rather than contributing any support to Riverrun, and Edmure off wenching and whoring rather than guarding their most valuable prisoner, disobeying his king in order to capture the mill, surrendering Riverrun ignominiously after Jaime's threats, they don't really live up to their family words.

Although the Lannister words are 'Hear me Roar' and they don't seem to do much roaring. Tywin was all for quiet menace, Tytos for quietly letting things be. Tyrion is pretty gobby, but Jaime is apt to listen and deliver a threat with his indoors voice, and Cersei is more likely to throw a cup of wine in someone's face than scream or bawl (except for that time she found out Myrcella was going to Dorne).

But most of the house words seem to be a bit inapplicable. None of the Starks have experienced a single winter (except maybe Benjen). Stannis is the only Baratheon that came across as furious, although Robert seemed to be suppressing a lot of rage and entitlement against Cersei and Targaryens. Jon Arryn seems to have been a mediocre and ineffective hand, especially when it came to judging and managing character, bringing Petyr Baelish to the small council, who was his exact opposite for skill, efficacy, and understanding people, but, like everything we know about Jon Arryn, more about self-service than 'High as Honor'.

Daenarys seems to live up to 'Fire and Blood', as her father did - but her brothers and her great-great-granduncle not so much.  And Aegon? Maybe if the Blackfyre words were 'shoot first'.

[Michael Mertyns]

23 minutes ago, Walda said:

Although the Lannister words are 'Hear me Roar' and they don't seem to do much roaring.

The words do imply pride though, and that's something we often see in Lannisters

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

24 minutes ago, Walda said:

...her clothes and jewels were in the chamber of the hand...

Can't believe I never twigged this

[MinotaurWarrior]

5 hours ago, Walda said:

It could be a sign that Tyrion is not a Lannister but I think there might be more than just that. After all, if you look at the Tully 'Family, Duty, Honor' thing, and see Catelyn setting up a war, her sister sitting in the Eyrie rather than contributing any support to Riverrun, and Edmure off wenching and whoring rather than guarding their most valuable prisoner, disobeying his king in order to capture the mill, surrendering Riverrun ignominiously after Jaime's threats, they don't really live up to their family words.

So, while this generation of Tullys have really screwed things up a lot, I think you're being a little harsh. Cat and Lysa are both absolutely obsessed with their children, including, for Lysa, her unborn children. And Edmure is the only Lord we see really trying to fulfil his duty of protecting the smallfolk. I mean, the words aren't, "Always succeed in honorably executing your familial duties," rather it's just a list of high priorities.

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Although the Lannister words are 'Hear me Roar' and they don't seem to do much roaring. Tywin was all for quiet menace, Tytos for quietly letting things be. Tyrion is pretty gobby, but Jaime is apt to listen and deliver a threat with his indoors voice, and Cersei is more likely to throw a cup of wine in someone's face than scream or bawl (except for that time she found out Myrcella was going to Dorne).

 

I always interpreted their words as meaning, "Listen to me!" with roaring just being leonin speech. And all of the Lannisters do demand people listen to them. 

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But most of the house words seem to be a bit inapplicable. None of the Starks have experienced a single winter (except maybe Benjen).

We know Eddard saw at least seven or eight winters (likely a few more than that), and Jon remembers one, which means Robb probably also saw one. Sansa might have too. And Bran spends one of his "the Stark in Winterfell" chapters warning people about how winter is coming. But you're totally right that this current crop of Starks were probably hugely lacking in typical Stark perspectives, having never had a really striking formative winter experience.

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Stannis is the only Baratheon that came across as furious, although Robert seemed to be suppressing a lot of rage and entitlement against Cersei and Targaryens.

Yeah, Renly seems rather furyless. Even the way he threatens people, it comes across as kind of amicable. Sporting, in a way. And we don't really know much of Steffon, but he also doesn't seem to have been terribly furious.

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Jon Arryn seems to have been a mediocre and ineffective hand, especially when it came to judging and managing character, bringing Petyr Baelish to the small council, who was his exact opposite for skill, efficacy, and understanding people, but, like everything we know about Jon Arryn, more about self-service than 'High as Honor'.

 

Sweet Robin is high all the time .

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Daenarys seems to live up to 'Fire and Blood', as her father did - but her brothers and her great-great-granduncle not so much.  And Aegon? Maybe if the Blackfyre words were 'shoot first'.

Now you've got me curious about Rhaegar's relationship with fire. We know he was obsessed with the burning building he was born in, but beyond that... I'm curious.

 

All in all, very interesting.

[The Wolves]

6 hours ago, Walda said:

Yeah, I've wondered about this too. Particularly the bit where Cersei defaulted on the Iron Bank (although, maybe as a Baratheon, she doesn't have to pay her debts anymore).

But more particularily with Tyrion - he really doesn't mind promising big and delivering not much. He did promise the mountain clans the Vale of Arryn, and while they have the weapons (from Tywin, who confirmed he would underwrite that Tyrion promise, and who notably did not promise them any spoils if they helped him win the Battle of the Green Fork), they are still living furtively, harried and beaten back by the Lords of the Vale.

Tyrion has also promised big to the Golden Company, who never break a contract. Shae was not properly paid for her services, and in fact, would not have had a motive to seek out Tywin if it wasn't for the fact that she had no income and her clothes and jewels were in the chamber of the hand in a large wood-and-iron chest had been placed against the wall directly under the crossbow. (I suspect Varys was Tywin's interior decorator, as Shae could only have had access to the tunnel via him).

It could be a sign that Tyrion is not a Lannister but I think there might be more than just that. After all, if you look at the Tully 'Family, Duty, Honor' thing, and see Catelyn setting up a war, her sister sitting in the Eyrie rather than contributing any support to Riverrun, and Edmure off wenching and whoring rather than guarding their most valuable prisoner, disobeying his king in order to capture the mill, surrendering Riverrun ignominiously after Jaime's threats, they don't really live up to their family words.

Although the Lannister words are 'Hear me Roar' and they don't seem to do much roaring. Tywin was all for quiet menace, Tytos for quietly letting things be. Tyrion is pretty gobby, but Jaime is apt to listen and deliver a threat with his indoors voice, and Cersei is more likely to throw a cup of wine in someone's face than scream or bawl (except for that time she found out Myrcella was going to Dorne).

But most of the house words seem to be a bit inapplicable. None of the Starks have experienced a single winter (except maybe Benjen). Stannis is the only Baratheon that came across as furious, although Robert seemed to be suppressing a lot of rage and entitlement against Cersei and Targaryens. Jon Arryn seems to have been a mediocre and ineffective hand, especially when it came to judging and managing character, bringing Petyr Baelish to the small council, who was his exact opposite for skill, efficacy, and understanding people, but, like everything we know about Jon Arryn, more about self-service than 'High as Honor'.

Daenarys seems to live up to 'Fire and Blood', as her father did - but her brothers and her great-great-granduncle not so much.  And Aegon? Maybe if the Blackfyre words were 'shoot first'.

Jon, Robb, and Sansa I'm sure experienced winter though they were babies. But they experienced it none the less. 

[Grey Firewyrm]

I have long suspected that the supposed gold mines of Casterly Rock have been exaggerated. We just hear reassuring phrases; All the gold of Casterly Rock, A Lannister always pays their debts. these are commonly used but as has been pointed out, Lannisters don't really pay their debts with their abundant stacks of gold.

We've never met a former worker from those mines nor hear of any shipments of gold moving between places. We have however seen Commander Snow in talks with the Banks to get his spends.

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

Nope

[Tastes like Frey]

6 hours ago, Walda said:

Yeah, I've wondered about this too. Particularly the bit where Cersei defaulted on the Iron Bank (although, maybe as a Baratheon, she doesn't have to pay her debts anymore).

But more particularily with Tyrion - he really doesn't mind promising big and delivering not much. He did promise the mountain clans the Vale of Arryn, and while they have the weapons (from Tywin, who confirmed he would underwrite that Tyrion promise, and who notably did not promise them any spoils if they helped him win the Battle of the Green Fork), they are still living furtively, harried and beaten back by the Lords of the Vale.

Tyrion has also promised big to the Golden Company, who never break a contract. Shae was not properly paid for her services, and in fact, would not have had a motive to seek out Tywin if it wasn't for the fact that she had no income and her clothes and jewels were in the chamber of the hand in a large wood-and-iron chest had been placed against the wall directly under the crossbow. (I suspect Varys was Tywin's interior decorator, as Shae could only have had access to the tunnel via him).

It could be a sign that Tyrion is not a Lannister but I think there might be more than just that. After all, if you look at the Tully 'Family, Duty, Honor' thing, and see Catelyn setting up a war, her sister sitting in the Eyrie rather than contributing any support to Riverrun, and Edmure off wenching and whoring rather than guarding their most valuable prisoner, disobeying his king in order to capture the mill, surrendering Riverrun ignominiously after Jaime's threats, they don't really live up to their family words.

Although the Lannister words are 'Hear me Roar' and they don't seem to do much roaring. Tywin was all for quiet menace, Tytos for quietly letting things be. Tyrion is pretty gobby, but Jaime is apt to listen and deliver a threat with his indoors voice, and Cersei is more likely to throw a cup of wine in someone's face than scream or bawl (except for that time she found out Myrcella was going to Dorne).

But most of the house words seem to be a bit inapplicable. None of the Starks have experienced a single winter (except maybe Benjen). Stannis is the only Baratheon that came across as furious, although Robert seemed to be suppressing a lot of rage and entitlement against Cersei and Targaryens. Jon Arryn seems to have been a mediocre and ineffective hand, especially when it came to judging and managing character, bringing Petyr Baelish to the small council, who was his exact opposite for skill, efficacy, and understanding people, but, like everything we know about Jon Arryn, more about self-service than 'High as Honor'.

Daenarys seems to live up to 'Fire and Blood', as her father did - but her brothers and her great-great-granduncle not so much.  And Aegon? Maybe if the Blackfyre words were 'shoot first'.

Edmure never disobeyed his King, he presumed he'd have been wanted to bloody the Lannisters as much as possible, Robb never told him to let them pass. You can't really blame Edmure there.

Petyr was a pretty brilliant Master of Coin really, so promoting him to the small council was a pretty good move in that regard. It's not like Jon Arryn could have foresaw employing Littlefinger would lead to his death.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

16 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Tywin's a creditor, not a debtor

The Lannisters bring the crown into default

Tyrion acknowledges that he still owes Mord, but never makes any effort to pay him the remainder. Nor does he give the Vale to the mountain clans, even though Lannisters give out other empty titles.

Nobody ever fulfils their promises to Shae. Janos never gets what he's promised.

Jaime never gives Cat her daughters. It's not his fault or anything, but it's a debt unpaid.

So, do the Lannisters ever pay their debts?

Jaime, yes. And it kinda (read that: one hundred percent) his fault that, despite his outstanding debt, he has no qualms against taking Riverrun by any means, no matter how dirty and immoral.

Tyrion did pay his debt to the mountain clans. "I'll give you the Vale of Arryn" was just a figure of speech, but that aside, Shagga son of Dolf, or Timmett son of Timmett, have no use for empty titles. They got from Lord Lefford as much quality weaponry as they asked, that was the agreed price.

2 hours ago, MuzzBomb said:

I have long suspected that the supposed gold mines of Casterly Rock have been exaggerated. We just hear reassuring phrases; All the gold of Casterly Rock, A Lannister always pays their debts. these are commonly used but as has been pointed out, Lannisters don't really pay their debts with their abundant stacks of gold.

We've never met a former worker from those mines nor hear of any shipments of gold moving between places. We have however seen Commander Snow in talks with the Banks to get his spends.

You wouldn't be influenced here by some TV show that shall remain unnamed, would you?

Consider Tyrion. During his tenure as acting Hand, in every other chapter he hires more sellswords, and not once even thinks of liquidity. Before that, too, he always had as much coin to spend as he wanted. And Tyrion never had reached his father's top 100 favorite sons, and that's despite Lord Tywin having fathered only three children.

[Boarsbane]

2 hours ago, MuzzBomb said:

I have long suspected that the supposed gold mines of Casterly Rock have been exaggerated. We just hear reassuring phrases; All the gold of Casterly Rock, A Lannister always pays their debts. these are commonly used but as has been pointed out, Lannisters don't really pay their debts with their abundant stacks of gold.

We've never met a former worker from those mines nor hear of any shipments of gold moving between places. We have however seen Commander Snow in talks with the Banks to get his spends.

Kevan thinks he'd be able to pay of the IB debts with Lannister gold if he had to, Tywin loaned large amounts of gold to Robert and also paid off crown debts during his time as Hand with Aerys. Not exactly the actions of men hurting for money.