Is Jon + Dany Vs Whitewalkers too cliche to happen?

[LordImp]

A cliche IMO. Thats why i want a Jon vs Dany conlfict instead of a Jon- Dany alliance . Jon with a united north and Dany with a united south . Two favourites pitted against each other , thats something GRRM could do.  

[BalerionTheCat]

4 hours ago, Darksky said:

lol @ this belief ASOIAF isn't riddled with cliches...

The show is. Starting with season 1, episode 1, prologue: with the poor young Will returning, rather than the hardened Gared. With Robb marrying a nurse from the battlefield. Tyrion, the Hand of Queen Daenrys? Not yet. It was the expectation of all ADWD. But it never happened. They met, and Tyrion was about to be eaten by a lion. Would have been funny, according to almost everyone present. Maybe Tyrion will never be her Hand. Will be interesting when Euron will join the feast.

Of course, in books the good guys will win, after paying a price. There is a minimum of convention to follow.

[Darksky]

The books have their own fair share of cliches. It's bias if one tries to deny it.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The show is. Starting with season 1, episode 1, prologue: with the poor young Will returning, rather than the hardened Gared. With Robb marrying a nurse from the battlefield. Tyrion, the Hand of Queen Daenrys? Not yet. It was the expectation of all ADWD. But it never happened. They met, and Tyrion was about to be eaten by a lion. Would have been funny, according to almost everyone present. Maybe Tyrion will never be her Hand. Will be interesting when Euron will join the feast.

Of course, in books the good guys will win, after paying a price. There is a minimum of convention to follow.

Yeah, because GRRM uses totally original stuff, like the douchey and preppy Waymar Royce getting murdered by the evil monsters because of his arrogance and skepticism. That shit was old when Friday the 13th came out.  

Oh, or the cryptically-speaking beautiful, exotic seductress with magic powers. That's not a cliche at all either. 

Or the evil pirate with an honest-to-God eye patch. 

Or the gentle giant trope, used twice with Hodor and Wun Wun. 

And literally everything about Jon Snow is a cliche. He's so archetypal he would make James George Frazer blush. 

Both the books and the show are chock-full of cliches.

[Gaz0680]

Try naming a single tv show or well known book not filled with cliches. Essentially anything that becomes a common occurrence soon becomes considered cliche.

In literature, the guy getting the girl, the girl being the one that got away, hero sacrificing him or herself to save the world and/or the people they care about, the hero winning easily over the bad guys, the person overcoming a tragic/difficult childhood to become a hero, the traitor who redeems themself, (the list goes on), are all considered cliche and lacking originality.

EVERY story has cliche elements. Hell, if an author or to writer was trying to create a story with ZERO cliches, then you'd end up with one hot mess of a story where nothing makes sense.

there certainly hasn't been a film or to show I've ever watched in my life that hasn't had at least one cliche.

 

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

Well, If I were Jon, once I see Dany's current lover (that blue Daario in the book...) I will back off and bye... Because "ok, anyone with such horrible taste must be out of my league" lol

[BalerionTheCat]

44 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Yeah, because GRRM uses totally original stuff, like the douchey and preppy Waymar Royce getting murdered by the evil monsters because of his arrogance and skepticism. That shit was old when Friday the 13th came out.  

Oh, or the cryptically-speaking beautiful, exotic seductress with magic powers. That's not a cliche at all either. 

Or the evil pirate with an honest-to-God eye patch. 

Or the gentle giant trope, used twice with Hodor and Wun Wun. 

And literally everything about Jon Snow is a cliche. He's so archetypal he would make James George Frazer blush. 

Both the books and the show are chock-full of cliches.

Jon Snow, I agree 100% He is the good guy, caring for the others. While most anyone else is ready to kill everyone to win the throne.

There are other cliches. But they are not that ... cliche. Euron is not what it looks like. There are good and bad giants, like everyone ...

[CrypticWeirwood]

3 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

Try naming a single tv show or well known book not filled with cliches. Essentially anything that becomes a common occurrence soon becomes considered cliche.

In literature, the guy getting the girl, the girl being the one that got away, hero sacrificing him or herself to save the world and/or the people they care about, the hero winning easily over the bad guys, the person overcoming a tragic/difficult childhood to become a hero, the traitor who redeems themself, (the list goes on), are all considered cliche and lacking originality.

EVERY story has cliche elements. Hell, if an author or to writer was trying to create a story with ZERO cliches, then you'd end up with one hot mess of a story where nothing makes sense.

there certainly hasn't been a film or to show I've ever watched in my life that hasn't had at least one cliche.

 

If either of Dany or FakeJon, or both, sacrifices themselves to save the world, it will make all these years of following their story complete rubbish, a trite wrap-up that’s exactly what everyone is expecting.

[Le Cygne]

Cliche is such a weak criticism. Everything has been done before. It's all in the telling. GRRM:

Quote

"You've got many books that have the same basic idea when you look at them... It's all in the execution. Originality is great, but it's an overrated virtue, I think. Shakespeare wasn't very original, he was just very, very good. He could write exactly the same story that... someone else had previously put down, but the way he did it elevated it to an all time classic as opposed to whatever had been before."

Doing the unexpected is cliche, too. There's no winning that game. Tell the story well, that's all there is.

[princess_snow]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Cliche is such a weak criticism. Everything has been done before. It's all in the telling. GRRM:

Doing the unexpected is cliche, too. There's no winning that game. Tell the story well, that's all there is.

THIS !

[AugustusTheGreat]

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Cliche is such a weak criticism. Everything has been done before. It's all in the telling. GRRM:

Doing the unexpected is cliche, too. There's no winning that game. Tell the story well, that's all there is.

How about we replace cliche with "straighforward" or "predictable"? 

[Cragen]

I don't think that fight against WW is point of this story. WW are threat to humanity that is what our characters know, that is what we know about them. For me this is enough, I don't need to know what WW want. Maybe they are not evil monster, maybe they only trying to survive, maybe humans are reason they dying out, we don't know and I don't care.

Humanity view them as threat, humans are survivors, they will do just that, one way or another. In GRRM words this is story about characters going from childhood to adulthood changing themselves and world around them in process. This is what it's all about, our characters in conflict with themselves, WW are more like device to make possible for world change, because real changes comes from cataclysmic events.

[boojam]

On 7/9/2016 at 1:38 AM, AugustusTheGreat said:

It seems more and more like Dany + Jon are on paths to collide, with the consensus being that they will end up marrying and effectively "breaking the wheel" after they defeat the whitewalkers with a united seven kingdoms... but will it really be that simple?

As George RR Martin has enforced, he doesnt believe is pure good vs evil, yet this seems to be a very cliche ending with one side being the clear good guys while the other are the clear bad guys. 

What do you guys think? Will this story end up happily and rather cliche, or will something turn the tables of the common expectation? 

I saw a recent article that said the White Walkers (Others) were boring. In a way that's true. But then so is Sauron. So , if Sauron had of won, then what? Sauron smooz with the Nazgûl forever? The Orc armies just kind of wander about Middle Earth aimlessly , forever?

Westeros becomes the land of shambling frozen hamburger?

[illinifan]

There are "rules" and tropes associated with stories which is what makes them so enjoyable.  One of the biggest ones is the "hero's journey."  This is what Jon and Dany represent.  Yes, Martin can go against the grain but it has to be done in such a way that it makes the story satisfying to his readers.  The big shocking twists have toyed with the story while fulfilling archtypes.  For instance, Ned's death in the first book was shocking because he seemed like the main character, but Ned was really the "mentor" figure while his children were the main characters.  It is like Obi Wan Kenobi being killed in Star Wars except we spent Star Wars following Obi Wan and thinking he was the main hero.  

[AugustusTheGreat]

On 7/11/2016 at 3:18 AM, boojam said:

I saw a recent article that said the White Walkers (Others) were boring. In a way that's true. But then so is Sauron. So , if Sauron had of won, then what? Sauron smooz with the Nazgûl forever? The Orc armies just kind of wander about Middle Earth aimlessly , forever?

Westeros becomes the land of shambling frozen hamburger?

Night King: "Hey, Chrildren of the forest, we did that mission you asked of us..."

[boojam]

2 hours ago, AugustusTheGreat said:

Night King: "Hey, Chrildren of the forest, we did that mission you asked of us..."

Man I'm thinking this is as a major unspoiler , not from the books, and unless there is further development on the show kind of a shaggy dog story right now.

[cade]

On 7/10/2016 at 7:54 PM, Le Cygne said:

Cliche is such a weak criticism. Everything has been done before. It's all in the telling. GRRM:

Quote

"You've got many books that have the same basic idea when you look at them... It's all in the execution. Originality is great, but it's an overrated virtue, I think. Shakespeare wasn't very original, he was just very, very good. He could write exactly the same story that... someone else had previously put down, but the way he did it elevated it to an all time classic as opposed to whatever had been before."

Doing the unexpected is cliche, too. There's no winning that game. Tell the story well, that's all there is.

Exactly this. The "cliche" criticism has itself become very tired and overused, just a popular term people throw out against a story point they dislike, while themselves liking plenty of other stories that have been told many times before. It's just human to enjoy the same basic stories that resonated with previous generations. 

[Iron Mother]

It won't be just them.  But there will be a layering effect of everyone getting their petty squabbles out of the way and the final battle against the WWs.  There will be a Dany/Jon alliance.... but not like the two of them battling WW alone.  I see a conglomerate of all Westeros - when they are all convinced the WW are real and it's going to happen.  So there's no cliche.... it is after all a battle between the Living and the Dead.

[AngeL0L]

Yes, its too chliche but im afraid something like this is going to happen in the series. The show is being rushed and the writing has become lazy. However, i cant see it happening in the books. It would be something far more interesting than this.

[khal drogon]

Why the same fight could not happen without being good vs evil?

I hate Dany Jon though not because it is cliché.