AugustusTheGreat Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 It seems more and more like Dany + Jon are on paths to collide, with the consensus being that they will end up marrying and effectively "breaking the wheel" after they defeat the whitewalkers with a united seven kingdoms... but will it really be that simple? As George RR Martin has enforced, he doesnt believe is pure good vs evil, yet this seems to be a very cliche ending with one side being the clear good guys while the other are the clear bad guys. What do you guys think? Will this story end up happily and rather cliche, or will something turn the tables of the common expectation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytheros Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 It's not going to be that simple and straightforward in the books. The show, however, is an entirely different story. And the writing for the show is decidedly inferior to that of the books. The disparity in quality has become especially apparent the more divergent from the book material the show has gotten, and since the show has either scrapped or passed every book plotline there is, I don't have expectations of the kinds of shades of grey and complications that GRRM will have in the books happening in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz0680 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Why are people still treating the White walkers as the villains.? We're going to learn more about them next season (and in the Winds of Winter). George never wanted to make a pure good or pure evil beings in his story. The Night's King is NOT Sauron. I think there is going to be a final war, but it won't be what we necessarily expect (ie White walkers/wights vs. everyone else). In answer to the title question, yes, Dany+Jon vs. white walkers would be extremely cliche, as would them getting married, winning and ruling well for many years. That will not and should not be how GoT ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytheros Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 18 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said: Why are people still treating the White walkers as the villains.? We're going to learn more about them next season (and in the Winds of Winter). George never wanted to make a pure good or pure evil beings in his story. The Night's King is NOT Sauron. I think there is going to be a final war, but it won't be what we necessarily expect (ie White walkers/wights vs. everyone else). In answer to the title question, yes, Dany+Jon vs. white walkers would be extremely cliche, as would them getting married, winning and ruling well for many years. That will not and should not be how GoT ends. I agree completely - as far as the books go. The White Walkers of the books are going to be a lot more complex and have shades of gray. The show is something entirely different, written by B&W - the duo who gave us Show-Dorne, Saint Tyrion, Sansa-Ramsay, and The North Forgetting. The White Walkers of the Show are going to be blandly evil, with little or no complexity and no shades of gray. The show is going to continue to cast the White Walkers as beings of pure evil, or near enough to make no difference, because doing anything else would be too complicated for them to manage, and I have doubts about their ability to succeed at a simplified version of the White Walkers. The showrunners have also apparently said that we'll never see a White Walker speak on the show - that's hardly conducive towards creating shades of gray - and that they're coming south to destroy everything we know as life and warmth, or something along those lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Friendzone Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 45 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said: Why are people still treating the White walkers as the villains.? We're going to learn more about them next season (and in the Winds of Winter). George never wanted to make a pure good or pure evil beings in his story. The Night's King is NOT Sauron. I think there is going to be a final war, but it won't be what we necessarily expect (ie White walkers/wights vs. everyone else). In answer to the title question, yes, Dany+Jon vs. white walkers would be extremely cliche, as would them getting married, winning and ruling well for many years. That will not and should not be how GoT ends. In recent interview D&D describe them as someone who's aim is to kill not negotiate. They dont know any other way because they've been created this way. Yep, they're not villains but neither good guys. They're simply creatures who's purpose is to kill everyone but it's not their choice, they had to do it. White Walkers in the books are beautiful, elegant and yet dangerous. Geoerge describe them this way but we'll learn more about them. Show showed enough of them so they might do some additional scenes or not, depends on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chib Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 25 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said: In recent interview D&D describe them as someone who's aim is to kill not negotiate. They dont know any other way because they've been created this way. Yep, they're not villains but neither good guys. They're simply creatures who's purpose is to kill everyone but it's not their choice, they had to do it. White Walkers in the books are beautiful, elegant and yet dangerous. Geoerge describe them this way but we'll learn more about them. Show showed enough of them so they might do some additional scenes or not, depends on them. Yes, maybe they will not destroy all the WW but find a way turn the "terminator mode" off. But they're definitely just killing machine in the shows. They're programmed to kill and that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 The White Walkers are weapons of mass destruction created by the Children of the Forest to defend themselves against men. The weapons turned on the Children and killed them as well (and were going to commit a genocide against mankind.) Think of it like the US building atomic weapons to win WWII and then oops... everything got out of control. The White Walkers aren't evil; they are just sentient weapons that have gone awry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragen Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Compare WW with dragons, they are both weapon and in what purpose they will be used depending on those who control them. On other hand it's not about are WW good or bad is how mankind percepts them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onion Hound Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I don't understand why it's important that "the dragon has three heads" or that Jons a Targ if they are not going to team up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyen Thuy Tran Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Dany won't have all of her army and dragons to go against WW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustusTheGreat Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 5 hours ago, illinifan said: The White Walkers are weapons of mass destruction created by the Children of the Forest to defend themselves against men. The weapons turned on the Children and killed them as well (and were going to commit a genocide against mankind.) Think of it like the US building atomic weapons to win WWII and then oops... everything got out of control. The White Walkers aren't evil; they are just sentient weapons that have gone awry. Well heres the thing, they have been dormant for such a long time and perhaps have come back for a specific reason.... perhaps to protect Westeros from invaders from Essos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyen Thuy Tran Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 17 minutes ago, AugustusTheGreat said: Well heres the thing, they have been dormant for such a long time and perhaps have come back for a specific reason.... perhaps to protect Westeros from invaders from Essos... I'm thinking maybe it was Bran who came back to the past and accidentally activated WW from their sleep after 8000 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darksky Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 11 hours ago, Kytheros said: I agree completely - as far as the books go. The White Walkers of the books are going to be a lot more complex and have shades of gray. The show is something entirely different, written by B&W - the duo who gave us Show-Dorne, Saint Tyrion, Sansa-Ramsay, and The North Forgetting. The White Walkers of the Show are going to be blandly evil, with little or no complexity and no shades of gray. The show is going to continue to cast the White Walkers as beings of pure evil, or near enough to make no difference, because doing anything else would be too complicated for them to manage, and I have doubts about their ability to succeed at a simplified version of the White Walkers. The showrunners have also apparently said that we'll never see a White Walker speak on the show - that's hardly conducive towards creating shades of gray - and that they're coming south to destroy everything we know as life and warmth, or something along those lines. You seem so disappointed. Perhaps you should stop watching and discussing the show you hate. Would save you time and energy. Think on it. Now back to the topic. So far WWs/The Others have been a non-entity in the books and given that it's most likely there will be no more books, they will remain so forever. The show has expanded on them but there's so much it can do with them. And it's not like it's needed. Does anyone, who's complaining, actually expect the show to humanize them or something? They're like dragons. WMDs. But without a master to control them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakin1013 Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 5 hours ago, AugustusTheGreat said: Well heres the thing, they have been dormant for such a long time and perhaps have come back for a specific reason.... perhaps to protect Westeros from invaders from Essos... Are you suggesting an alliance with the North would be possible? Perhaps having Bran 'communicate' with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytheros Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 4 hours ago, Darksky said: You seem so disappointed. Perhaps you should stop watching and discussing the show you hate. Would save you time and energy. Think on it. Now back to the topic. So far WWs/The Others have been a non-entity in the books and given that it's most likely there will be no more books, they will remain so forever. The show has expanded on them but there's so much it can do with them. And it's not like it's needed. Does anyone, who's complaining, actually expect the show to humanize them or something? They're like dragons. WMDs. But without a master to control them. It's not that I hate the show for being a show adaptation. It's that I recognize that the show is very much not the books. And that whenever B&W aren't using book material, the quality of writing takes a nosedive. So far as we know, there's no more book material for them to use with the White Walkers - which means that the complexity and shades of grey that we're expecting to see in the books isn't going to be available for them to adapt, and that means the White Walkers on the show, and how they're handled, is not going to be particularly nuanced, which essentially means that the Show-White Walkers will be shown as being bland faceless evil for the sake of evil monsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustusTheGreat Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 6 hours ago, lakin1013 said: Are you suggesting an alliance with the North would be possible? Perhaps having Bran 'communicate' with them? Well, its possible for sure, but also unlikely. However, it would make the story far more entertaining and if that type of twist was done right, it would lay the framework to propel this show into one of the best ever made. It would be so disappointing if it ended up being everyone vs whitewalkers unless we have some MAJOR twists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 21 hours ago, Kytheros said: I agree completely - as far as the books go. The White Walkers of the books are going to be a lot more complex and have shades of gray. The show is something entirely different, written by B&W - the duo who gave us Show-Dorne, Saint Tyrion, Sansa-Ramsay, and The North Forgetting. The White Walkers of the Show are going to be blandly evil, with little or no complexity and no shades of gray. The show is going to continue to cast the White Walkers as beings of pure evil, or near enough to make no difference, because doing anything else would be too complicated for them to manage, and I have doubts about their ability to succeed at a simplified version of the White Walkers. The showrunners have also apparently said that we'll never see a White Walker speak on the show - that's hardly conducive towards creating shades of gray - and that they're coming south to destroy everything we know as life and warmth, or something along those lines. You sound like you've read TWOW already. We're five books in and we still know next to nothing about the WW, and the little we know about them doesn't suggest that they're nuanced or morally ambiguous. Quite the contrary, they've been consistently depicted as evil and nothing so far suggests there's more to them. It's unfair to criticize the show for not living up to fan theories and speculation about books that may or may not even get published. If you're going to compare the show with the books, at least compare it with the existing, actual books and not with the imaginary ones in your head. Also the argument that GRRM doesn't write completely evil characters doesn't fly when you realize he's the same guy who came up with Gregor, Ramsay, Euron, the slavers, etc. GRRM criticized Tolkien for bringing Gandalf back from the dead, and yet he went and did the same thing with Stoneheart. He could (and has) introduce a black and white conflict just as easily. All that said, the scenario the op poses would be cliched as hell, but B&W haven't exactly shied away from cliches these last seasons, so it would be disappointing but not surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 I'm not sure the book's WW are more complex, or we will learn much more about them. But they will have a purpose for going south. They will not be just "out of control killing machines", like in the "Screamers" movie. Jon + Dany is cliche. It will not happen in books. But D&D have no care for cliche. And after what we've seen this season, I would not be surprised if they do it, "because it is cool and we wanted it". Fuck the same ending. Everything is already different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darksky Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 lol @ this belief ASOIAF isn't riddled with cliches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nocturne Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 5 minutes ago, Darksky said: lol @ this belief ASOIAF isn't riddled with cliches... This x1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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