R+L=J... But not only ??

[ShadowKitteh]

It was my understanding that AA & TPTWP are both mutations of the same thing, and not from any one religion, but one of those "saviors" for lack of a better word, that are variations on a theme... [Buddah, Mithras, Jesus, The Prophet (pick one).... etc], only not divine, just saving mankind kind of a thing... Jamie, but global.

Speaking of Jamie... I hope he lasts until endgame, and doesn't Tommen over Cersei after he kills her... I'd rather see him see the emergency happening in the north, and join up with The Living as fast as poss. It would be awesome to see Jamie rally the people for Jon... and not even bother killing Cersei. No one kills her. Sorry, prophecy part two was a lie. Everyone abandons her.

... hey... a kitteh can dream.

[MtnLion]

9 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

It was my understanding that AA & TPTWP are both mutations of the same thing, and not from any one religion, but one of those "saviors" for lack of a better word, that are variations on a theme... [Buddah, Mithras, Jesus, The Prophet (pick one).... etc], only not divine, just saving mankind kind of a thing... Jamie, but global.

Speaking of Jamie... I hope he lasts until endgame, and doesn't Tommen over Cersei after he kills her... I'd rather see him see the emergency happening in the north, and join up with The Living as fast as poss. It would be awesome to see Jamie rally the people for Jon... and not even bother killing Cersei. No one kills her. Sorry, prophecy part two was a lie. Everyone abandons her.

... hey... a kitteh can dream.

I hear ya!  But, GRRM did not say so, in spite of at least one false report that he had. 

Where is the suspicion that Aerys found out that Lyanna was the KotLT coming from?  There is no hint of such in the book.  The only connection that we get from the book is that Rhaegar could not be found on Dragonstone or in King's Landing when the winter (after Harrenhal's brief false spring) got brutal and the Black Water Froze.  I don't think Aerys is going anywhere at that particular time, or sending anyone anywhere other than to the walls of the city to light fires. 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

On 13/07/2016 at 4:25 AM, GhostNymeria said:

Also, intresting take on Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage and what happend between them and Aerys after that. I've never come across that explanation before, and it definitely connects a lot of dots, like Aerys decraling Viserys as heir. I definitely agree that something like that likely happend. But I still believe Rhaegar was thinking that he had to have third child in Dany's vision (don't know if the "three-headed dragon" is a prophecy tough, maybe he'd read it in relation to TPTWP prophecy). But since he also believed Aegon was TPTWP (born under a red comet apparently), I don't think he was necessarily going around and looking for another potential mother to his child. Maybe he simply gave up on the "three-headed dragon" when he found out Elia would die if she got pregnant again. 

Aerys definitely had it out for the Starks. And when he found out about Lyanna being the KOTLT, he send his men after her. Rhaegar found out about it and also whent after her to help her. That's why many people in Westeros have the misconception that Rhaegar took Lyanna at sword point. It was Aerys men who took her, or tried to take her at sword point. Rhaegar and his closest companions was either there at the confrontation or saved her later when Aerys men had already arrested her. The point is that some people propably saw Lyanna getting taken away by the king's men, or Rhaegar and his men in the same confrontation, and didn't get the whole context (Rhaegar and co and Aery's men being on opposite sides), thus assuming it was Rhaegar who took her at sword point. 

Also, I believe Rhaegar was infatuated and impressed by Lyanna at Harrenhal after finding her as the KOTLT. That's why he crowned her the queen of love and beauty. I don't think they were in love or anything at this point, but when Rhaegar won the tourney he crowned her in "the moment" with all the adrenaline rushing without thinking of consequences and his wife's reaction. At Harrenhal this was all that happend between them I believe, but when Rhaeger later helped and hid Lyanna from Aery's men, they spent a lot of time togheter and this is where the romantic relationship developed. And I don't think Elia was "okay" with it, as many people ar theorizing. This version makes Rhaegar and Lyanna much more human and flawed in my mind, than Rhaegar trying to fulfill a prophecy with Lyanna.

 

I don't agree with the thinking that he had to have third child. It screams red herring like "why Prince Rhaegar needed to get Lyanna pregnant? Oh, because he NEEDED another child". I am sure they (he and Maester Aemon) did not know anything about the prince having two siblings. The name of his children - though I doubt Aegon was his child (*) - was another red herring. The prophecy is about a Dragon (warrior or only prince or princess) who has three heads (maybe names, maybe knights fighting for him/her). As far as I know Rhaegar and Maester Aemon were still trying to understand the prophecy and the place of birth seems to be very important. Born amidst smoke and salt. It fits Daenerys, but it's too perfect. Of course it does not mean born in a place surrounded by smoke and salt. It means revealed in a mix of ice and fire. To the people who wrote down this prophecy ice can be something they never saw, so they placed salt instead. Ice (salt) and Fire (smoke). And I don't mean Jon is son of Ice (Lyanna) and Rhaegar (Fire) but that during the battle of fire against ice the prince will be revealed. There is one Prince but three heads, meaning three equals one. I think Jon and Dany are two of these heads. I wonder what the third head will be.

So what I think we saw in that vision of Dany was one part of the Prophecy, just that. It was Rhaegar thinking who or what would be the "Three Heads"

I think Rhaegar might be or not had been infatuated with Lyanna, but I think if he was, his infatuation was more admiration for her courage. Of course she being beautiful did not hurt, lol. Same thing for Lyanna, if she fell in love with him, it was not because he was gorgeous and played sad songs on his harp, but admiration for saving her against his father's will.

(*) Aegon not being his child is a theory that I am beginning to believe since it was a bit strange that he had all the Targaryen features. Platinum hair, ok, or purple eyes, but both? I believe in the theory that Aegon is/was Ashara Dayne's child product of rape of Aerys. Still a Targaryen though. There is a purpose in constantly saying that Ashara had violet eyes, and that she got pregnant at the same time as Elia.

 

[GhostNymeria]

59 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I don't agree with the thinking that he had to have third child. It screams red herring like "why Prince Rhaegar needed to get Lyanna pregnant? Oh, because he NEEDED another child". I am sure they (he and Maester Aemon) did not know anything about the prince having two siblings. The name of his children - though I doubt Aegon was his child (*) - was another red herring. The prophecy is about a Dragon (warrior or only prince or princess) who has three heads (maybe names, maybe knights fighting for him/her). As far as I know Rhaegar and Maester Aemon were still trying to understand the prophecy and the place of birth seems to be very important. Born amidst smoke and salt. It fits Daenerys, but it's too perfect. Of course it does not mean born in a place surrounded by smoke and salt. It means revealed in a mix of ice and fire. 

You're right. Now that I think about it, Dany's vision with Rhaegar was a prophecy, not a vision of the past like Bran's weirwood visions. The "scene" between him and Elia probably didn't happen that way at all, and Rhaegar didn't actually think he needed another child. It was a prophecy being shown to Dany. And I agree that "born amidst smoke and salt" doesn't mean literal smoke and salt.

59 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I think Rhaegar might be or not had been infatuated with Lyanna, but I think if he was, his infatuation was more admiration for her courage. Of course she being beautiful did not hurt, lol. Same thing for Lyanna, if she fell in love with him, it was not because he was gorgeous and played sad songs on his harp, but admiration for saving her against his father's will.

I agree with all of this. This is a believable expaination why Rhaegar decided to crown her the QOLAB infront of everyone at Harrenhal, as opposed to doing it because of her beauty. Maybe he tought she deserved it after he caugth her being the KOTLT. And yes, I also think that Lyanna falling in love with Rhaegar (supposedly) was because he saved her from his father later, not because he was hot.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

On 16/07/2016 at 11:17 AM, GhostNymeria said:

You're right. Now that I think about it, Dany's vision with Rhaegar was a prophecy, not a vision of the past like Bran's weirwood visions. The "scene" between him and Elia probably didn't happen that way at all, and Rhaegar didn't actually think he needed another child. It was a prophecy being shown to Dany. And I agree that "born amidst smoke and salt" doesn't mean literal smoke and salt.

I agree with all of this. This is a believable expaination why Rhaegar decided to crown her the QOLAB infront of everyone at Harrenhal, as opposed to doing it because of her beauty. Maybe he tought she deserved it after he caugth her being the KOTLT. And yes, I also think that Lyanna falling in love with Rhaegar (supposedly) was because he saved her from his father later, not because he was hot.

I don't understand why people see her vision of Rhaegar as something that happened exactly like that when her other visions were totally weird and hallucinogen because she was drugged. I doubt it happened that way. It's clearly a red herring, that story about "three heirs/heads" and the names of the children suggesting a trio. Rhaegar married to have heirs of course, he needed sons. But Elia was very fragile and Aerys only married Rhaegar to her as a strange joke, I believe he already hated his son, he didn't attend the wedding and didn't let Viserys go see his brother get married. It is said it was a political deal, but I have my doubts. It was obvious Elia could not bear children safely. Am I wrong or after Tywin refused to marry her to Jaime, her mother went to every House in Westeros trying to marry her daughter? She was not ugly, so I believe the reason that she could not find a husband (if I am not confused) was because they thought maybe she could not have children. I can't believe Rhaegar insisted on having a second child, and I can't believe he left Elia because of a "third head". Maester Aemon said that the Dragon must have three heads, and he was sorry that he could not be one of them, so the heads were never supposed to be siblings, but "dragons" (Targaryens).

[dbunting]

On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 2:57 PM, xjlxking said:

i still think that it was relevant because Jon is the main character. I refuse to believe anything but that; there is a reason as to why Rhaeger said about his son Aegon, "his is the song of ice and fire" and he name of the damn novels is the song of ice and fire

That was Aegon he was holding in the vision, not Jon. Rheagar would have died before Jon was born.

[ShadowKitteh]

11 hours ago, dbunting said:

That was Aegon he was holding in the vision, not Jon. Rheagar would have died before Jon was born.

Unless, like Jon Snow Nothing said, it wasn't a recording of something that actually happened, but a vision for Dany, like a prophecy. 

[MtnLion]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 10:09 PM, ShadowKitteh said:

Unless, like Jon Snow Nothing said, it wasn't a recording of something that actually happened, but a vision for Dany, like a prophecy. 

There is a drawback to that, we know that Aegon was killed when he was a bout a year old by the Mountain.  Why would Rhaegar name two of his sons Aegon?  It would not make sense, even in a vision for Daenerys. 

[ShadowKitteh]

On August 19, 2016 at 10:57 AM, MtnLion said:

There is a drawback to that, we know that Aegon was killed when he was a bout a year old by the Mountain.  Why would Rhaegar name two of his sons Aegon?  It would not make sense, even in a vision for Daenerys. 

Because visions aren't documentaries of events that happened. Rhaegar also wasn't alive when Jon was born, but it's the vision's way of telling Dany that Rhaegar's son is The Song of Ice & Fire, in a way that she'll eventually figure out, as will a great many readers. 

There's not much to gleen from a prophecy of a bunch of dead people, which is what Dany (and you) assume they're seeing. 

[MtnLion]

16 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Because visions aren't documentaries of events that happened. Rhaegar also wasn't alive when Jon was born, but it's the vision's way of telling Dany that Rhaegar's son is The Song of Ice & Fire, in a way that she'll eventually figure out, as will a great many readers. 

There's not much to gleen from a prophecy of a bunch of dead people, which is what Dany (and you) assume they're seeing. 

Not everything was a prophecy in the House of the Undead.  Some scenes were from the past, some from the present, and some from a possible future.  Or, maybe you know what prophecy the white haired, bronze skinned rider is about?