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Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.


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7 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Ok, to clarify what I mean by sacrificing the FM connection:  First and foremost as a symbol that would be a precursor to the RLJ revelation and perhaps even subsequent dragon-rider Jon.  Second, as a legitimate sacrifice that we have seen serves collectively as a large aspect of FM culture, a prerequisite for the whole "only death can pay for life" standard, and the AA myth.  The sacrifice of Ghost has a significance that would take precedence over any for Jon save Arya.  And, finally, yes, as severing his connection to the "old gods" since, as LV said upthread and I agree with, the old gods are simply greenseers (and perhaps the incorporeal connection to nature), and Ghost's death would likely be an end to his warging gifts.

Ok, I know I am risking throwing the thread off center if I ask this... but how do you see the old gods being simply greenseers? A real question... not a challenge for mental superiority.

The World book says the CotF worshiped the old gods, and the CotF had greenseers in their race (some still are in the cave) so it can't be the CotF worshiped themselves, can it? Sometimes the terms get confusing to me because GRRM is the master of vague :bang:

And greenseers are not common, but they are not uncommon and are also human (Bran, Brynden Rivers). One in a thousand men is born a skinchanger and one skinchanger in a thousand is born a greenseer.It is also known that humans can be born greenseers just as they are born wargs.

From the World book: The gods the children worshipped were the nameless ones that would one day become the gods of the First Men—the innumerable gods of the streams and forests and stones. It was the children who carved the weirwoods with faces, perhaps to give eyes to their gods so that they might watch their worshippers at their devotions. Others, with little evidence, claim that the greenseers—the wise men of the children—were able to see through the eyes of the carved weirwoods. The supposed proof is the fact that the First Men themselves believed this; it was their fear of the weirwoods spying upon them that drove them to cut down many of the carved trees and weirwood groves, to deny the children such an advantage.

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3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The World book says the CotF worshiped the old gods, and the CotF had greenseers in their race (some still are in the cave) so it can't be the CotF worshiped themselves, can it? Sometimes the terms get confusing to me because GRRM is the master of vague :bang:

I suppose my interpretation of the World Book account if pretty straightforward (or at least I think so).  The CotF felt a strong connection with all things of nature and thus adopted its aspects as their "gods" (streams, forests, stones).  Eventually, for some this connection developed into greensight, for others that felt a strong bond with other creatures this developed into skinchanging.  And, I suppose for even others this developed into Jojen's lesser form of greensight/green dreams.

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1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

 

My gods, it's as if I threatened to kill your pupp....er, bad example.  I'd emphasize I'm merely responding to the idea.  And yes, I dare to blaspheme and say that a sacrificing of his FM connection to resurrect Jon does have merits/make some sense.

:D It's OK, I was teasing ( although killing um, that kind of "bad example" would be beyond barbaric)

But I do think Jon's FM connection is extremely important. I have a suspicion that all the really old bloodlines will need to rally to the cause.. and the stronger their original attributes, the better.

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The old gods.. According to Bloodraven, ADWD... Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

This tells us that the CotF believe the weirwoods are the gods ... but only the greenseers among the CotF can become part of that godhood. According to Varamyr, remembering Bump's death...

“Your little one is with the gods now,” the woods witch told his mother, as she wept. “He’ll never hurt again, never hunger, never cry. The gods have taken him down into the earth, into the trees.The gods are all around us, in the rocks and streams, in the birds and beasts. Your Bump has gone to join them. He’ll be the world and all that’s in it.”

This is not quite the same thing. The CotF may share the woods witch's belief for those among them who are not greenseers, but the wildlings, in general, may not be fully aware of the CotF concept. re: Greenseers / weirwoods. They think the weirwoods in particular are sacred to the old gods but they may not know why. To them the gods are present in everything. Bump will be part of the natural cycle.

We should note that it's a woods witch Varamyr's mother turns to for spiritual guidance / reassurance. Not healing.. no healing is possible for Bump.

If we go back to the connection between Val, Dalla and Vala : in the old Norse culture, basically, there were witches and vala, both keepers of knowledge. Witches were healers and some might do some prophesying (though not all). Vala were seers/ prophetesses and some might do some healing (though not all). They knew various sorts of rituals (many sung) to seek visions and answers to questions from the gods.(provided her rituals were conducted correctly)

There are numerous hints that GRRM is using his own version of this pattern. See Mother Mole and her vision of Hardhome, see Val wanting a midwife at Dalla's delivery, Val saying she was sings to herself, not Monster (can she help it if he listens ?), then, knowing where she must go to find Tormund, Val saying she could do more to help Jon when he wondered how to sell his bargain with Tormund to the watch... Well, how? She would have no sway with the NW.. 

The fact is , we don't know a lot yet about wildling religious beliefs or practises .. but with Jon winning the wildlings to him, I think we'll soon know more.

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Ok... I am risking all dignity to put this here but, thoughts? Connections? Do I need sleep because it is after 3am here? 

Astrology is a recurring theme in the books, including the sun and moon connections. If Val is the moon to Jon's sun (Dawn?), and he is hiding something no one could discover (his identity thanks to Ned), could the savior monkey lady be Val with her telltale, long braid? 

From the World book:

It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R'hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return. In the Jade Compendium, Colloquo Votar recounts a curious legend from Yi Ti, which states that the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail.

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2The fattest leech

20 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok... I am risking all dignity to put this here but, thoughts? Connections? Do I need sleep because it is after 3am here? 

Astrology is a recurring theme in the books, including the sun and moon connections. If Val is the moon to Jon's sun (Dawn?), and he is hiding something no one could discover (his identity thanks to Ned), could the savior monkey lady be Val with her telltale, long braid? 

From the World book:

It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R'hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return. In the Jade Compendium, Colloquo Votar recounts a curious legend from Yi Ti, which states that the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail.

That's a nice parallel.. I like the hidden secret.. I like it better than bloody Azor Ahai (he makes me gnash my teeth like Stannis)

But Leech, going back up-thread, I think greenseers are pretty rare. It's late for me too, although I'm west coast ... but if my brain is still feebly functioning, isn't one in a thousand (of ones - each one in a thousand) = one in a million? 

And when was the last human greenseer before Bloodraven. We know there hasn't been a Stark warg in at least 200 yrs. or more at least, because - no direwolves s. of the Wall. BR may be the first in a very long time.. maybe they'd have to not only have the ability, but then come in contact with the CoTF.. 

Need sleep, now.

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7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But to the OP, yes, clearly I think Val is important to Jon because of political reasons, mutual attraction reasons, and restorative abilities that will be in dire need rather quickly.

 

What restorative abilities? Among all the stuff that's being claimed about Val, I find the notion that she is some great healer the most perplexing. She couldn't even save Dalla from death in childbirth, for Pete's sake! What's the basis for believing that she can heal otherwise mortal wounds?

She may be some sort of wildling priestess - Varamyr's home village certainly had one. She might be instrumental in preventing wholesale slaughter at Castle Black and resultant killing of wildling hostages elsewhere, provided that she truly has some clout with former followers of Mance. That would be consistent with the little that we know about her and an important enough contribution on it's own, surely.

 

6 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Oh, killing Ghost certainly isn't my favorite - as I intimated earlier I really don't have one - just was saying I prefer it to the Drogo-Jon scenario as it does have some appeal in terms of sacrificing the Stark/First Men aspect of his identity, the pretty on-the-nose "ghost" symbolism, etc.

 

Well, the thing with Drogo, though, is that of all the revenants to date, his body seems to have been actually "biologically" healed rather than animated by magical powers. Yes, the scar was ugly, but it was a normal scar, rather than unhealed wounds of unBeric and unCat, or (un?)Vicky's   flaming arm.  Sure, Drogo's higher functions have been nuked, but it was done very much on purpose and otherwise his case shows that the shadowbinders can actually _heal_ mortal wounds, ergo Melisandre could heal a fatally wounded, but not yet quite dead Jon (gut wounds take hours or even days to kill) back into a fully living man if she chose to and had a  sacrifice avaialble. Which she has - not necessarily Shireen, even, because there are captive Karstark men as well and/or Ghost. In fact, her success with Jon might very well embolden Mel to sacrifice Shireen at some point in the future.

Now, if Jon is well and truly dead, it would be cheap if he returned as a fully alive man and not some kind of self-aware undead, like the fire-wights, or maybe Coldhands (I felt that Bloodraven was talking through him on a few occasions, so I am not quite sure about him). And while I wouldn't be against such a twist, that's not where his story is going, IMHO. So far, at least. 

I am not sure if Ghost is going to be sacrificed for Jon to live, though that would make sense, given that Jon's survival will probably be linked to his embracing of his full identity, instead of the cover story that he lived until now. I don't see why Ghost's death would lead to Jon losing his warging abilities, though. As seen in Varamyr's PoV, skin-changers losing their animals with time and acquiring  new ones is par for the course.

Re: Bloodraven's and Bran's roles in Jon's healing, they'll be able to touch him while he is between life and death, I imagine, and contribute this way.  They also might contact Melisandre in some way (Mormont's raven?) and work together with her.

As to Morna, is she even at Castle Black when Jon is attacked ? What exactly makes her a "warrior-witch"? Etc.

 

 

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@The Fattest Leech

That is all well and good but can you give me a good explanation why a not seriously injured Jon should have fainted the way he did in his last chapter? One would assume that there would be no reason for this if he wasn't seriously injured. The welling of blood especially at the neck wound suggests that it might have been much more serious than he thought it was - the lack of pain being part of the shock/him not realizing that he was seriously injured.

I agree that we don't know what happened after Jon fainted but there is no reason to assume that the sidekicks came to the rescue. Nothing indicates that. If you compare that to the other hints we got for allegedly dying POVs then Jon is in a much worse position because he was not only gutted by multiple people but we also left in a position where the assassins could technically continue their gutting work for quite some time.

I know that George asked a rhetorical question in response to the question about Jon's death. Even if we interpret this as Jon not being dead yet he could still die early on in the next book not to mention that Jon beginning his second life in Ghost more or less could be interpreted as him not being dead. If you say Varamyr is dead you would be wrong, too. His body is dead, but his spirit yet lives.

12 hours ago, bemused said:

1.Jon's neck wound was a graze and didn't impede him in disarming Wick.

See above. Blood usually does not well if there is just a scratch.

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2. We don't know i) the length of Bowen's dagger.. ii) how many layers of clothing Jon was wearing, or of what material (Boiled leather, furs, mail ?) But we do know Jon would be foolish to wear no protective gear surrounded by wildlings not all of whom he had yet "won to him.

If Jon had been wearing protective gear then a dagger most likely could not be buried into his stomach in the first place. Bowen would have to be very strong to actually stab through chain mail - and if he didn't do that the dagger would have stayed buried in Jon's body but would have have become entangled in the clothing or fallen down.

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3. We don't know if it was a stab wound , and neither does Jon, he can only assume based on the fact that 2 of the 4 men he noticed have already stabbed him. He doesn't know who struck him, or with what.. (Clever use of POV)

I don't expect it to be a huge hailstone. Do you? It has to be something severe or else he wouldn't have gone down.

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4. See 3 . Now Jon is face down expecting a fourth dagger. He never felt one and we don't know if it even materialized because George takes us out of the action.

It is implied that there was another dagger.

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5. Without a POV, it's very premature, if not foolish, to imagine any more knives.

No, it is not. It would be if we had any reason to believe that the cavalry came to save him. But there is no such thing indicated. Just compare Jon's death scene to Brienne's near death experience when she fought Rorge and Biter. There we have a reason to assume that she is not going to be killed then and there. In Jon's case there is no such indication.

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6. There is unlikely to be any need to "store his body", and I'm sure boiled wine is available for sterilization(as there was the last time he was wounded.) With  a "warrior" witch (healer) close at hand, there could well be access to the remedies that saved Mance's life when he was attacked by the shadow cat.

Yeah, because Clydas (who most likely is part of Bowen's gang) would give them the wine. We actually have no idea whether a warrior witch (whatever that is) is a healer. Could be that such women use spells or curses in battle or just like a fancy name for themselves.

If you go back and check Mance's first hint that Marsh might be up to no good it is quite obvious that he has potentially a rather large following among the Watch. And if they are no utter fools they might have had a plan how to prevent Jon's buddies from saving him.

11 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Whatever you want to call it, both her arrival and departure are noted by Jon.  Running to inform/reassure Selyse is clearly what Jon assumes she's doing, but I doubt that's her first concern - particularly when she asks Jon to "send for her" once the he gets the letter.

Did you ever consider the possibility that Marsh's men might have approached her to lure her away from the planned assassination that she could not interfere with it? The way Marc Antony was distracted when they murdered Caesar?

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For me, considering her previous depiction, her interest and clear belief Jon is somehow "important" does demonstrate increased independence from Stannis in ADWD.  So, too, does her apparent disinterest in his Winterfell campaign and insistence on staying at the Wall.  Obviously we interpret things differently.

Yes, we are. I really see no hint that Mel is less interested in Stannis in ADwD, especially not in her own chapter. And we know that she isn't very interested in those mundane military matters. She had no problem being sent back to Dragonstone prior to the Blackwater.

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Not sure how it's implied but I tend to agree Stannis is aware of the Mance switch.  As I said, though, I do not think he approved - or would have - of the Arya mission.

And why not? Surely Stannis would have recognized the value of 'Arya Stark'. If he had had any reason to believe she might have escaped Winterfell he would have supported such a mission.

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What I meant by fanatic - which admittedly was probably the wrong language - was the POV shows she has far less certitude in her interpretations and subsequent beliefs internally.  Her absolute confidence in her "prophecies" or claims is explicitly shown as an image she strategically projects to others (including Jon).  Thus, I think it's quite possible she reevaluates her basic conclusions due to future visions and/or events.

I actually don't see such a tendency in her. What I see is a woman who is very sure of her core beliefs, and those include that Stannis is the savior. She is confused about the Jon visions but she doesn't understand a lot of the visions she has yet no vision causes her to actually question her core beliefs. That is nowhere more evident than when she sees Bran and Bloodraven.

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I utterly fail to see how Mel changing her thoughts on exactly who AA is would have any effect on how to defeat the Others or why this would make the story boring.

The idea is that if Jon Snow is the prophesied hero and aware of that fact too early that he then could somehow defeat the Others before they became a major threat.

10 hours ago, dmc515 said:

My gods, it's as if I threatened to kill your pupp....er, bad example.  I'd emphasize I'm merely responding to the idea.  And yes, I dare to blaspheme and say that a sacrificing of his FM connection to resurrect Jon does have merits/make some sense.

Ghost might die at a later point. He will no longer have any use once Jon realizes who he actually is. But I actually doubt that killing Ghost would help Jon return into his body. Nor does it make much sense that people would be willing to risk that. Presumably there is no guarantee that this will work, right?

As to the old gods:

There is some sort of animism religion prevalent among some of the free folk (Varamyr) and possibly the Children as well. But those are not personal gods. That is pretty much made evident by the way the woods witch talks to Varamyr's family.

However, the greenseers are the old gods the First Men in the North pray to without ever realizing it (or rather: still remember it). The greenseers are also the old gods the First Men were afraid of back in the days of the wars between the First Men and the Children.

The idea that there are any other 'old gods' but Bloodraven and Bran is silly. They listen to prayers and might eventually even answer them in word (and deed, too, if the Northmen finally revive the custom of sacrificing people to their weirwoods).

I don't think Ghost can ever be as important a sacrifice as a human being. He is just an animal. A part of Jon, perhaps, in the skinchanger sense, but nothing he could not live without. True sacrifices should hurt. It has to be an innocent or somebody he loves. Arya would be the best sacrifice, followed, perhaps, by Jeyne Poole.

But then, both Euron and Moqorro-Victarion give us hints that quantity might be as good as quality. If you don't want to sacrifice your loved ones you can just take a bunch of beautiful slaves or some priests and your own unborn children.

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On 7/10/2016 at 8:43 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

GRRM had made mistakes before and even if they are not mistakes the light can make the eyes look with different color.

eye color is not subjective like the size of someone's hips, IMO.

GRRM made it a point to tell us 

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Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching.

But then...

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Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue

I get that grey and blue could be considered close? but these excerpts were both from Dance, only 8 Jon chapters apart.

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1 hour ago, DigUpHerBones said:

eye color is not subjective like the size of someone's hips, IMO.

GRRM made it a point to tell us 

But then...

I get that grey and blue could be considered close? but these excerpts were both from Dance, only 8 Jon chapters apart.

No good Val discussion would be worth it without the eye color issue ^_^

I agree that it is weird. Her eye color was on my list of questions to ask George at Balticon, but I only had time for a few others on my long list :( I'm not sure he would have given me a definite yes/no answer on this one. But maybe he would have? The world may never know.

Renly had his eye color change from blue to green. And Jaime's horse changed genders. And yes, the hip sizing. The natural sunlight and clouds change the color of the wall from white to blue to black and back again. Maybe the wall color and Val's eyes are more of a clue to atmosphere changes (winter is coming) or time of day?

However, we do have young Aegon's eyes change color with one hair color and different lighting. Tyrion in Dance says, "Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple."

Even Bran describes Jon's eyes in Game as, " Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see." So one might say Jon's eyes are dark grey, while someone else would say they are black. That actually happens a lot on these discussion threads.

ADDING: I just found one more reference to color changing eyes. I wasn't sure if I remembered it correctly because at first I couldn't find it... but here it is: Storm, Jon 3,  "In the dark, the direwolf's red eyes looked black."

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@The Fattest Leech

That is all well and good but can you give me a good explanation why a not seriously injured Jon should have fainted the way he did in his last chapter? One would assume that there would be no reason for this if he wasn't seriously injured. The welling of blood especially at the neck wound suggests that it might have been much more serious than he thought it was - the lack of pain being part of the shock/him not realizing that he was seriously injured.

I agree that we don't know what happened after Jon fainted but there is no reason to assume that the sidekicks came to the rescue. Nothing indicates that. If you compare that to the other hints we got for allegedly dying POVs then Jon is in a much worse position because he was not only gutted by multiple people but we also left in a position where the assassins could technically continue their gutting work for quite some time.

I know that George asked a rhetorical question in response to the question about Jon's death. Even if we interpret this as Jon not being dead yet he could still die early on in the next book not to mention that Jon beginning his second life in Ghost more or less could be interpreted as him not being dead. If you say Varamyr is dead you would be wrong, too. His body is dead, but his spirit yet lives.

~snipped~

 

Answered in BOLD. I hope that is ok and easier to follow/read.

That is all well and good but can you give me a good explanation why a not seriously injured Jon should have fainted the way he did in his last chapter? One would assume that there would be no reason for this if he wasn't seriously injured. The welling of blood especially at the neck wound suggests that it might have been much more serious than he thought it was - the lack of pain being part of the shock/him not realizing that he was seriously injured. 

Yes. Jon could be seriously injured. I think he is and this is why I think it is important that he still has Morna around (Yes, Morna is still there and not in Queensgate yet) and possibly Val. 

ADDING: Morna Whitemask has already offered herself to Jon... but in which way :blink:. From Dance, Jon 7: "The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred."

As to why Jon would have fainted, I do think that it is highly plausible that Jon warged into Ghost and that happened when Jon saw Ghost turning up on the scene. So far, Jon has only fully warged into Ghost in dreams and shared only senses or brief glimpses with Ghosts' conciousness while Jon was still awake.

What happens to Bran when he full wargs Summer or Hodor? His body goes limp and he just lays there. Actually, this scene in Dance gives a real clear view of what possibly could have happened to Jon at the mutiny. Bran is facedown, like Jon, as he is fully warged and he is looking at himself as Summer defends his unconscious body. The last line of questions Bran has are sneakily the same ones the readers has for Jon. Damn it George! :lol:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The wights, Bran realized. Someone set the wights on fire.
Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame. He shouldn't get so close, what is he doing? Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead?
________________________________________________________

I agree that we don't know what happened after Jon fainted but there is no reason to assume that the sidekicks came to the rescue. Nothing indicates that. If you compare that to the other hints we got for allegedly dying POVs then Jon is in a much worse position because he was not only gutted by multiple people but we also left in a position where the assassins could technically continue their gutting work for quite some time.

I think the Bran being attacked by wights scene is the best example for this because Jon and his situation and warg abilities are more closely foreshadowed in a Bran or Varamyr scene rather than a random guy or even Catelyn dying scene.

I know that George asked a rhetorical question in response to the question about Jon's death. Even if we interpret this as Jon not being dead yet he could still die early on in the next book not to mention that Jon beginning his second life in Ghost more or less could be interpreted as him not being dead. If you say Varamyr is dead you would be wrong, too. His body is dead, but his spirit yet lives.

Sure. It is possible that Jon dies in the next book. But people in their second life don't live long and they spend their days trying to find a new host body and lose themselves a little more each time. This would be really lame of George to do for a main hero of the story that he has devoted 1/4 of the books to so far. Varamyr flits from host to host and is basically really uncomfortable. The man goes into a worm!!! What kind of story is that for the reader to follow if Jon is in Ghost?

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35 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes. Jon could be seriously injured. I think he is and this is why I think it is important that he still has Morna around (Yes, Morna is still there and not in Queensgate yet) and possibly Val. 

 

That is actually not confirmed. I just checked and the last time Morna is mentioned is when Jon reveals that he had given her Queenscrown. She is not mention as being present in the Shieldhall.

35 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

ADDING: Morna Whitemask has already offered herself to Jon... but in which way :blink:. From Dance, Jon 7: "The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred."

I guess that means we are in for some threesome action later on. Perhaps Jon, Morna, and ... Satin?

35 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

As to why Jon would have fainted, I do think that it is highly plausible that Jon warged into Ghost and that happened when Jon saw Ghost turning up on the scene. So far, Jon has only fully warged into Ghost in dreams and shared only senses or brief glimpses with Ghosts' conciousness while Jon was still awake.

That makes little sense because the last thing Jon feels is not being a wolf but the cold. Last I looked a living wolf was warm.

And by the way, just to clarify: The book also makes it clear the dagger between the shoulder blades was a dagger, causing him to fall face first to the ground. That wouldn't happen if it wasn't serious injury, just as the gut wound wouldn't have caused him to go down on his knees if it hadn't been serious.

35 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sure. It is possible that Jon dies in the next book. But people in their second life don't live long and they spend their days trying to find a new host body and lose themselves a little more each time. This would be really lame of George to do for a main hero of the story that he has devoted 1/4 of the books to so far. Varamyr flits from host to host and is basically really uncomfortable. The man goes into a worm!!! What kind of story is that for the reader to follow if Jon is in Ghost?

Nobody wants to follow that particular story. At least not ad infinitum. I think Jon's body will be resurrected not healed, and that has actually been foreshadowed by the man-wolf-man vision Mel saw in the flames. If you see it not symbolizing that Jon is a warg then it shows that Jon will fully become Ghost while his body is dead only to be restored to his human body after it has been resurrected.

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To Lord Varys

 I'm not sure how this whole quoting thing works just yet given I made this account just because no one corrected you on Jon's age, one of the main reasons you have to discredit that Val is really interested in Jon on a physical level. 

"I'm not completely disagreeing there, I'm just asking the question why she would want him if not to make use of him for her own ends. I don't think Jon in himself is such an attractive manly 15-year-old to make a very beautiful and experienced grown-up woman all that wet between her legs."

Jon turned 15 early into his Nights Watch days, given the time of the books he's probably 17 turning 18 soon, definitely considered a man at this time though most are still green, Jon has experienced enough to lose that consideration.  There's enough evidence in text to prove she's flirting with him and then there's that theory that Jon actually stole Val but hasn't figured it out yet like Ygritte. She may not be end game important but she'll be more than just a pretty face. 

(Thank you for making me get an account I've been putting it off for too long) 

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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

...

I guess that means we are in for some threesome action later on. Perhaps Jon, Morna, and ... Satin?

...

Satin is his squire and the word squire is an anagram for risqué, right? :lol:

 

(I am totally joking)

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And @Lord Varys, I seem to remember you are a fan of the artist Amok in large part because he has done so many of the "official" character drawings as guided by George.

Well, Amok seems to think Val is important enough to put in with Mance. Amok didn't even do a Mance/Dalla family portrait :idea:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Mance_Abel_Val.jpg

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7 hours ago, Maia said:

As to Morna, is she even at Castle Black when Jon is attacked ? What exactly makes her a "warrior-witch"? Etc.

It's true, we don't know for sure that Morna is at Castle Black, but it's very reasonable to assume she could be. She was given command of Queengate and Tormund command of Oakenshield.

Jon had asked for all the leaders to be in the shieldhall. She might not have left for Queensgate, or might have come back while Jon was with Selyse ( We're told Tormund arrived late).

"Warrior witch" seems to imply that she's both a warrior and a witch (or maybe that she's  a witch with expertise beneficial to warriors). I think she's probably both, because...  "The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred."

It's easy to read sexual implications into that, but I think that's misleading, because she has a son among Jon's hostages, perhaps not much younger than Jon, and kissing his gloved hand is more a mark of respect than flirtation (and it wasn't required). So as a warrior (spearwife) she acts as a man and as a witch she acts as a woman. Witches have been established as healers in-story.

Her weirwood mask ties her to the old gods in a more than commonplace way, and probably to Val, who we saw wear a weirwood mask brooch at Tormund's camp. ..These are the only two examples of wearing a carved weirwood face we've seen, both on occasions that are very important to the future of the wildlings. Val doesn't wear hers at all times and I doubt Morna does either.

Morna removes her mask long enough to speak to Jon. Later, Jon doesn't notice her at the meeting.The mask would certainly make her stand out in a crowd, but she may not have worn it to the shieldhall. We know that the wildlings feel free to ask questions and voice their opinions even to their king. It may have been an impediment at the meeting. (Or with her connection to Val there's an outside chance that she is with her.)

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14 minutes ago, bemused said:

...

"Warrior witch" seems to imply that she's both a warrior and a witch (or maybe that she's  a witch with expertise beneficial to warriors). I think she's probably both, because...  "The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred."

It's easy to read sexual implications into that, but I think that's misleading, because she has a son among Jon's hostages, perhaps not much younger than Jon, and kissing his gloved hand is more a mark of respect than flirtation (and it wasn't required). So as a warrior (spearwife) she acts as a man and as a witch she acts as a woman. Witches have been established as healers in-story.

...

 

I was actually referring to what you said when I added the Morna comment. Which way as in warrior or witch. It is others who may be reading it wrong. Choices are a minor theme throughout the story when it comes to life or death. LSH to Brienne, Arya to her lives taken, even the "gods" to the Hound, and Chiswyck to Hot Pie in a very plain chose life or death question.

I guess sometimes my jokes don't always come through from one computer screen to another. My fault.

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15 minutes ago, Yollo Lannister said:

To Lord Varys

 I'm not sure how this whole quoting thing works just yet given I made this account just because no one corrected you on Jon's age, one of the main reasons you have to discredit that Val is really interested in Jon on a physical level. 

"I'm not completely disagreeing there, I'm just asking the question why she would want him if not to make use of him for her own ends. I don't think Jon in himself is such an attractive manly 15-year-old to make a very beautiful and experienced grown-up woman all that wet between her legs."

Jon turned 15 early into his Nights Watch days, given the time of the books he's probably 17 turning 18 soon, definitely considered a man at this time though most are still green, Jon has experienced enough to lose that consideration.  There's enough evidence in text to prove she's flirting with him and then there's that theory that Jon actually stole Val but hasn't figured it out yet like Ygritte. She may not be end game important but she'll be more than just a pretty face. 

(Thank you for making me get an account I've been putting it off for too long) 

Welcome, Yollo !.. and well said..

I'd also like to point out that many people think that Val is considerably older than Jon, but I don't see any reason to think she's necessarily older than in her late teens. Girls are considered women at a young age too. The words Mance uses to describe the two may suggest quite an age difference between Dalla and Val (whether they're biological sisters, or not.) Val is "this beauty", while Dalla is a "good woman", which definitely sounds more matronly.

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20 minutes ago, bemused said:

It's true, we don't know for sure that Morna is at Castle Black, but it's very reasonable to assume she could be. She was given command of Queengate and Tormund command of Oakenshield.

Jon had asked for all the leaders to be in the shieldhall. She might not have left for Queensgate, or might have come back like Tormund while Jon was with Selyse (Tormund arrived late).

...snipped...

 

Agreed. The only castle that we know of to be garrisoned by the wildling so far is Oakenshield with Tormund because that is specifically mentioned in the books. And also her son is at CB, as you mentioned.

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Val and Dalla's ages are mysteries to me still. Does anyone have any clue to how old they are? They are described as women, but a woman can be someone of almost any age that has flowered. Usually though, it is a girl that has flowered and is at least 16, if I am remembering this correctly. Flowered and not yet 16 is a maid.

By now Jon should be 16-17?

Maybe Val does prefer slightly younger, dark featured men? Would that be so bad?

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"That sounds more like me," said Tormund. "Well met, Jon Snow. I am fond o' wargs, as it happens, though not o' Starks."
"The good woman at the brazier," Mance Rayder went on, "is Dalla." The pregnant woman smiled shyly. "Treat her like you would any queen, she is carrying my child." He turned to the last two. "This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet."
"I am no man's pet," said Jarl, dark and fierce.
"And Val's no man," white-bearded Tormund snorted. "You ought to have noticed that by now, lad."
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