Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.

[OberynBlackfyre]

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, Norse model aside (which is still very important), I think this would parallel what we already see in the books with other orders that refer to each other as "brother" or "sister", such as those in the faith, the silent sisters

And Jarl was described as seemingly younger than Val and had the looks similar to Jon. Sooo, I guess they are both finding what they physically find attractive in each other? And I love to think that Val stole Jarl

Possibly, and I definitely agree that she is key to keeping wildling peace, and Stannis actually says this, too.

But when Jon turns Val and Winterfell down, it is because he thinks he is a bastard because he knows nothing. Well, if he is not a bastard and many situations were different, he would have scooped her up, and chances are pretty high that this could happen after he heals and finds out who his daddy is, etc.

• Lonely and lovely and lethal, Jon Snow reflected, and I might have had her. Her, and Winterfell, and my lord father's name. Instead he had chosen a black cloak and a wall of ice. Instead he had chosen honor. A bastard's sort of honor.

before that Jon thinks...

• I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.
  He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me.

I agree that much of what Jon said at that time seemed to line up with a possible relationship with them together, but this is also before the game changer- Jon's death.  

 

I feel like it's safe to say that we will see a grimmer/ more motivated Jon Snow after he comes back from the grave.  I also think that we might see Jon's parentage being confirmed in the books (since its already confirmed canon), and him being half Targaryen now gives him a new scope of "duty"- he now doesn't need to just protect the NORTH, he needs to protect the REALM.  

 

While I think Jon desires Val and would definitely want to marry her if his only issue was reconciling the North and the Wildlings, I just don't think it's going to play out like that.  There are much larger forces at work and Jon Snow marrying a wildling princess would be somewhat a "waste" when he could use marriage to bind him to someone MUCH more powerful and with more strategic value.

 

 

*edit- not only that but this would basically be ignoring the Dany/Jon foreshadowing and the possible Jon/Arya trope that has existed since the books conception- which if I read SSM correctly, you have a friend that is of that same theory? haha

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

I agree that much of what Jon said at that time seemed to line up with a possible relationship with them together, but this is also before the game changer- Jon's death.  

 

I feel like it's safe to say that we will see a grimmer/ more motivated Jon Snow after he comes back from the grave.  I also think that we might see Jon's parentage being confirmed in the books (since its already confirmed canon), and him being half Targaryen now gives him a new scope of "duty"- he now doesn't need to just protect the NORTH, he needs to protect the REALM.  

Well, the wildlings are now going to be part of the realm.

And this also is a great divider in the fandom... the idea that half of us think the whole idea of the story is just to return a Targ to the seat and everything back to the way it way, and some others of us think that Westeros is about to be reformed.

6 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

 

While I think Jon desires Val and would definitely want to marry her if his only issue was reconciling the North and the Wildlings, I just don't think it's going to play out like that.  There are much larger forces at work and Jon Snow marrying a wildling princess would be somewhat a "waste" when he could use marriage to bind him to someone MUCH more powerful and with more strategic value.

There has been a ton of talk about this same subject in this thread, and again, not everyone agrees on this being the purpose, or, "one true end".

6 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

 

 

*edit- not only that but this would basically be ignoring the Dany/Jon foreshadowing and the possible Jon/Arya trope that has existed since the books conception- which if I read SSM correctly, you have a friend that is of that same theory? haha

No one is ignoring anything. And that outline doesn't mean crap! George said it is literally full of shit.

Are you talking about the Balticon report? If you read it, then you should know that the outline was just written to sell the books and that "things changed along the way." George's words. And the proof being that 99% of that outline does not exist in the books anymore. And the ending of that outline was blacked out so no one knows the B.S. ending he made up to sell the books.

Yes, I went with a friend who believes something very different than I do about this one part of the story. She was extremely upset at what George told her about Jon and Arya. And???

The point of this thread is to discuss how Val and Jon are going to be together.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, the wildlings are now going to be part of the realm.

And this also is a great divider in the fandom... the idea that half of us think the whole idea of the story is just to return a Targ to the seat and everything back to the way it way, and some others of us think that Westeros is about to be reformed.

There has been a ton of talk about this same subject in this thread, and again, not everyone agrees on this being the purpose, or, "one true end".

No one is ignoring anything. And that outline doesn't mean crap! George said it is literally full of shit.

Are you talking about the Balticon report? If you read it, then you should know that the outline was just written to sell the books and that "things changed along the way." George's words. And the proof being that 99% of that outline does not exist in the books anymore. And the ending of that outline was blacked out so no one knows the B.S. ending he made up to sell the books.

Yes, I went with a friend who believes something very different than I do about this one part of the story. She was extremely upset at what George told her about Jon and Arya. And???

The point of this thread is to discuss how Val and Jon are going to be together.

ok I don't know if you took what I said personally or something, but that wasn't my intent.  What I'm simply saying is that there are other contenders for Jon to be with that I feel, make more sense.  

I am of the belief that Westeros WILL be reformed, but that a good majority of the North will be left in devastation.  I love Val as a chracter, but her and Jon getting together as in MARRIED I feel doesn't do anything for the story that is at hand.  Like I said, when Jon does get resurrected I think we are going to see a Jon that is very much about the "bigger picture".  The Wildlings were only a huge nuisance to Jon while he was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch- and it's very much foreshadowed that he will no longer even BE NW once he is resurrected.  

Val and Jon could most definitely have a romantic relationship, but I think them getting married just wouldn't fit into where Jon's story is going

[OberynBlackfyre]

Also I believe Val already *somewhat* believes that Jon ALREADY stole her.  Somewhat in the same way he did Ygritte- by accident.  

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

ok I don't know if you took what I said personally or something, but that wasn't my intent.  What I'm simply saying is that there are other contenders for Jon to be with that I feel, make more sense.  

I am of the belief that Westeros WILL be reformed, but that a good majority of the North will be left in devastation.  I love Val as a chracter, but her and Jon getting together as in MARRIED I feel doesn't do anything for the story that is at hand.  Like I said, when Jon does get resurrected I think we are going to see a Jon that is very much about the "bigger picture".  The Wildlings were only a huge nuisance to Jon while he was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch- and it's very much foreshadowed that he will no longer even BE NW once he is resurrected.  

Val and Jon could most definitely have a romantic relationship, but I think them getting married just wouldn't fit into where Jon's story is going

Yeah, there is some possible "wolfish" or berserker talk (if you follow the Norse mythology influence in this part of the story) and I agree that it is something to watch for in the next book.

Married, stolen, banana, banana. Jon already "stole" Val, so if it carries on after he is back, we will have to see. So far, the clues, to me, seem to say yes because she is a high ranking Free Folk lady who is already attracting attention of northern houses. So much so that Stannis and even stodgy, stuck up Selyse want to marry her into Winterfell, THE seat in the north.

To me, the Jon+Dany thing seems to point to a different type of ruling system. They don't have to be married either.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, there is some possible "wolfish" or berserker talk (if you follow the Norse mythology influence in this part of the story) and I agree that it is something to watch for in the next book.

Married, stolen, banana, banana. Jon already "stole" Val, so if it carries on after his is back, we will have to see. So far, the clues to me seem to say yes because she is a high ranking Free Folk lady who is already attracting attention of northern houses. So much so that Stannis and even stodgy, stuck up Selyse want to marry her into Winterfell, THE seat in the north.

To me, the Jon+Dany thing seems to point to a different type of ruling system. They don't have to be married either.

I honestly think Dany will set up a new type of Valyrian Empire.  While she rules in Essos, Jon will *somewhat* rule in Westeros, but with a possible more Freehold type of democracy.

That being said GRRM has said he knows who sits the Iron Throne at the end, which gives the impression that someone will "sit upon the throne" in the end.  

 

What really made me believe that Val wasn't consequential to Jon's story was that she wasn't even mentioned in the show.  I mean if they had Daario they could have had Val- and I wish they did.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

ok I don't know if you took what I said personally or something, but that wasn't my intent.  What I'm simply saying is that there are other contenders for Jon to be with that I feel, make more sense.  

And my apologies. I did kinda think you were trying to poke my big, fat beer bear belly I get a little defensive when talk of my friend comes up because it really upset her.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

And my apologies. I did kinda think you were trying to poke my big, fat beer bear belly I get a little defensive when talk of my friend comes up because it really upset her.

haha no it's fine.  I just wanted to point out that although the outline was 99% untrue, there are still many that believe a Jon/Arya trope could happen.

I personally feel that Jon is somewhat destined to be in a marriage of convenience rather than a marriage of mutual love.  

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

I honestly think Dany will set up a new type of Valyrian Empire.  While she rules in Essos, Jon will *somewhat* rule in Westeros, but with a possible more Freehold type of democracy.

That being said GRRM has said he knows who sits the Iron Throne at the end, which gives the impression that someone will "sit upon the throne" in the end.  

But how long will that throne last? Some theories seem to point to it lasting until the last book, but it is melted down by the last chapter. It seems to be a symbol for conquer and oppression for many, something Jon seems against. It would not surprise me if Jon, or whoever (Hot Pie?), had it melted down as sign of a change.

 

3 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

 

What really made me believe that Val wasn't consequential to Jon's story was that she wasn't even mentioned in the show.  I mean if they had Daario they could have had Val- and I wish they did.

Yeah, the show don't mean anything. Both the showrunners and George repeatedly say over and over that they are two different stories. Westeros is already majorly character heavy compared to Dany traveling through Essos. It seems to be a balance in characters more than anything. Besides, I think Karsi was supposed to be the Val/Morna/Harma influence, but the show doesn't handle most plotlines very well and had Karsi killed by her uterus. Anyway, no show talk is allowed in the book threads by rule of mods.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

But how long will that throne last? Some theories seem to point to it lasting until the last book, but it is melted down by the last chapter. It seems to be a symbol for conquer and oppression for many, something Jon seems against. It would not surprise me if Jon, or whoever (Hot Pie?), had it melted down as sign of a change.

 

Yeah, the show don't mean anything. Both the showrunners and George repeatedly say over and over that they are two different stories. Westeros is already majorly character heavy compared to Dany traveling through Essos. It seems to be a balance in characters more than anything. Besides, I think Karsi was supposed to be the Val/Morna/Harma influence, but the show doesn't handle most plotlines very well and had Karsi killed by her uterus. Anyway, no show talk is allowed in the book threads by rule of mods.

No i know that< im just stating as to what made me personally feel like it wasn't going to go anywhere.  But honestly since you guys love Val + Jon ship, I hope it happens for all ye!

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

haha no it's fine.  I just wanted to point out that although the outline was 99% untrue, there are still many that believe a Jon/Arya trope could happen.

I personally feel that Jon is somewhat destined to be in a marriage of convenience rather than a marriage of mutual love.  

There were some people on here over summer (?) who were gunning hard that the outline was true, but we were reading the clues wrong and the love triangle will just be Tyrion and Arya because they will meet in Braavos (or something). I stayed well away from that thread

[OberynBlackfyre]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

There were some people on here over summer (?) who were gunning hard that the outline was true, but we were reading the clues wrong and the love triangle will just be Tyrion and Arya because they will meet in Braavos (or something). I stayed well away from that thread

as soon as I read Tyrion being in the triangle I seriously laughed.  
I mean after being here since like 2011 (I made a new profile a year later to keep this name) you will see how some people become biased towards certain things because they want it to happen.  To me GRRM spells out A LOT of things for people, but you just have to keep his style of writing in mind.  
I mean, there are STILL those who refute R+L=J.....lol 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

as soon as I read Tyrion being in the triangle I seriously laughed.  
I mean after being here since like 2011 (I made a new profile a year later to keep this name) you will see how some people become biased towards certain things because they want it to happen.  To me GRRM spells out A LOT of things for people, but you just have to keep his style of writing in mind.  
I mean, there are STILL those who refute R+L=J.....lol 

By the way, I tried your link to the Citadel conspiracy and it did not work. Can you pm me a fresh one?

[OberynBlackfyre]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

By the way, I tried your link to the Citadel conspiracy and it did not work. Can you pm me a fresh one?

yeah! I actually JUST found it again, one sec!

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But how long will that throne last? Some theories seem to point to it lasting until the last book, but it is melted down by the last chapter. It seems to be a symbol for conquer and oppression for many, something Jon seems against. It would not surprise me if Jon, or whoever (Hot Pie?), had it melted down as sign of a change.

Or the one sitting on that damned thing may sit on it dead, like Maegor.

We certainly have several characters  who aren't going for a status quo anymore. Dany is all about change in Slaver's Bay. Moralistically it's a progression for Slaver's Bay and the Dothraki, away from slavery. Asha and Theon are progressive characters for the Iron Islands. Jon is a progressive character for the North-Wildling combo.

The most progressive society on Planetos though seems to be Braavos. They seem to be the Italy that has already moved forward into the renaissance with a middle class. And I think this may come into play, together with the Nymerian concept. What is Nymeria most famous for? She led an exodus of her people with 10000 ships sailing West to save them. And I must confess that sometimes I wonder whether at the end, people decide to abandon Westeros altogether, and sail off into the sunset sea with a fleet of 10000 ships.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

Or the one sitting on that damned thing may sit on it dead, like Maegor.

We certainly have several characters  who aren't going for a status quo anymore. Dany is all about change in Slaver's Bay. Moralistically it's a progression for Slaver's Bay and the Dothraki, away from slavery. Asha and Theon are progressive characters for the Iron Islands. Jon is a progressive character for the North-Wildling combo.

The most progressive society on Planetos though seems to be Braavos. They seem to be the Italy that has already moved forward into the renaissance with a middle class. And I think this may come into play, together with the Nymerian concept. What is Nymeria most famous for? She led an exodus of her people with 10000 ships sailing West to save them. And I must confess that sometimes I wonder whether at the end, people decide to abandon Westeros altogether, and sail off into the sunset sea with a fleet of 10000 ships.

thats funny because I actually see a "switch" of some sort happening.  

Braavos and Dany are at the same time natural allies and natural enemies.  Braavosi greatly dislike dragons because of what they have done in the past, but I think will revere Dany's ending of slavery.  

So you may have Braavosi and then of course Dothraki in a HUGE influx into Westeros, not to mention the wildlings and the "savage" Northmen possibly having to retreat South because of the White Walkers.  

 

If there was ever a time for the Andals to go back to Andalos....

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Or the one sitting on that damned thing may sit on it dead, like Maegor.

We certainly have several characters  who aren't going for a status quo anymore. Dany is all about change in Slaver's Bay. Moralistically it's a progression for Slaver's Bay and the Dothraki, away from slavery. Asha and Theon are progressive characters for the Iron Islands. Jon is a progressive character for the North-Wildling combo.

The most progressive society on Planetos though seems to be Braavos. They seem to be the Italy that has already moved forward into the renaissance with a middle class. And I think this may come into play, together with the Nymerian concept. What is Nymeria most famous for? She led an exodus of her people with 10000 ships sailing West to save them. And I must confess that sometimes I wonder whether at the end, people decide to abandon Westeros altogether, and sail off into the sunset sea with a fleet of 10000 ships.

WOW! That would be a sight to behold. Reminds me of the cartoon the Jetson's where the father, George, is on a defective treadmill thing and he calls out to his wife, "Jane! Get me off this crazy thing."

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

WOW! That would be a sight to behold. Reminds me of the cartoon the Jetson's where the father, George, is on a defective treadmill thing and he calls out to his wife, "Jane! Get me off this crazy thing."

Or Brave New World. And who cares about houses then, huh? They'd all have to start over again. No fighting over who gets the the IT or Winterfell, or someone telling you 'No, you can't be with that guy. He's just a bastard 'pprentice.' or 'he's justy a dog from a lesser house' or 'she's a wildling! Westeros won't accept a wildling princess!" or 'Bluebeard is a sellsword! You can do better than him!'. Tabula Rasa. Of course, it won't stay forever peaceful or egalitarian. But it would be an image where you could 'dream' of an Utopia.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Or Brave New World. And who cares about houses then, huh? They'd all have to start over again. No fighting over who gets the the IT or Winterfell, or someone telling you 'No, you can't be with that guy. He's just a bastard 'pprentice.' or 'he's justy a dog from a lesser house'. Tabula Rasa. Of course, it won't stay forever peaceful or egalitarian. But it would be an image where you could 'dream' of an Utopia.

It could be kind of cathartic. AND it would keep within one of the general themes of the story! Well, two if you consider things being more unified and the equal primogeniture thing being worked in as well.

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It could be kind of cathartic. AND it would keep within one of the general themes of the story! Well, two if you consider things being more unified and the equal primogeniture thing being worked in as well.

Andi if you think of it... there's a lot of fleet building recently. White Harbor has a fleet now, Aurane Waters has a fleet somewhere, Dany gets a fleet. Meanwhile the Ironborn are daring to sail open sea, and Asha is a capable captain. Some fleet has to sail those sellsword companies for Stannis North. Euron has a huge fleet, but he might not always keep it. Oh and then we have our famous smuggler Davos.