Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.

[bemused]

On 12/30/2016 at 8:33 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

And Jarl was described as seemingly younger than Val and had the looks similar to Jon. Sooo, I guess they are both finding what they physically find attractive in each other? And I love to think that Val stole Jarl

This made me get nit-picky, because I've always thought Val was probably younger than many think her to be.. .. so I looked back to ASoS - Jon's first meeting with Mance (just three choice bits)... and one from later - the preparations to climb the wall..

*A dark young man and a pretty blonde woman were sharing a horn of mead... 
*...The singer rose to his feet. “I’m Mance Rayder,” he said as he put aside the lute. “And you are Ned Stark’s bastard, the Snow of Winterfell.” ...
*...“This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet.” ...
*...Though he could not have been older than twenty, Jarl had been raiding for eight years, 

OK,OK.. the second one has nothing to do with Jarl or Val, it just jumped out at me.. Is it Jon's future title (or one of them)?... He could just keep his name.... 

Jon thinks of Jarl as a "young man" and Mance calls him young because, for one thing, he's far younger than the other wildling men present. In the same chapter, Jon will see Mance in memory as a "young ranger" when he visited WF with Qorgyle. Given that 10-11 years have passed, Mance probably had to be in his mid twenties at the time. So, "young" covers quite a bit of ground.

Later, Jon thinks Jarl can't be older than twenty, and I think 20 is probably very close to on the button. Raiding for 8 yrs already... and we know Squirrel went on her first raid at 12. It would probably not be much different for boys, knowing that generally, girls mature more quickly.

Girls maturing more quickly and George being elusive about Val's age encourage us to see her as older. Then too (depending on the nature of her status) she may have something of the confidence and maturity often found among young people who have developed an expertise in a given field at an early age. It's Jon who calls her a pretty woman, while Mance simply calls her a beauty. Just becuse we're told Jarl is young doesn't mean Val isn't and we know at what young ages girls are considered women in ASoIaF. E.g....Though young, Dany is now generally considered to be a woman. (Her "I am just a young girl" protestations are really not taken too seriously anymore, IMO.)

Though I always allow that Val could be in her early twenties.. I secretly lean more toward late teens..18, 19 not more. (not just for mushy reasons - she would be a parallel for Jon and Dany as a young leader among her people.)

I like that Val and Jarl are sharing a horn of mead, considering the way I think Tormund uses mead (sort of inviting the blessing of the gods on some interaction or enterprise) .. the plan to climb the wall under joint command of Jarl and Styr is probably already in the works. It seems to me Jarl is more than just Val's lover. Called Val's pet and Mance's pet in the text .. I think both are meant in the sense of "protege" 

Jon and Jarl are a similar type, but I don't think it's just that Val is sexually attracted to the type. I think Jarl was a mis-identification of the next strong leader to follow Mance... and then the wall shook him off, Though she'd heard that, Val still has to ask Jon if he killed Jarl. it seems she's feeling  the magic connection in Jon.

Those Other Ships

When the heck is the greatest fleet in the world (Braavosi) going to put in a more serious appearance? They can build a war galleyin a day... I'm thinking it must be soon and I'm thinking it will be in support of Dany.

[Lord Varys]

@bemused

Considering that nothing you dug up indicates that Val herself is still a young woman in her teens I think we should go with her being in her twenties. Jarl is identified as a young guy by Jon, but Val isn't. And women certainly can be beautiful in their twenties and thirties, they don't have to be in their teens to be as hot as Val seems to be.

And if we want to go with the weird idea that Val is somehow special then it would also make more sense to see her as an older woman. If there is no wildling aristocracy then Val should have risen to whatever profession/position she holds right now through the ranks, getting some sort of education, etc. Her getting all that makes more sense if she is older rather than younger.

[kissdbyfire]

@bemused, I've been banging on about Jon's name for years, but no one listens to me!

Jon Snow, the King of Winter. 

C'mon, it's perfect!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@bemused, I've been banging on about Jon's name for years, but no one listens to me!

Jon Snow, the King of Winter. 

C'mon, it's perfect!

Of course it is. It is as perfect as his name being Daeron the III the King who brings the Free Folk to be united with the rest of the Westeros.

[The Fattest Leech]

10 hours ago, bemused said:

This made me get nit-picky, because I've always thought Val was probably younger than many think her to be.. .. so I looked back to ASoS - Jon's first meeting with Mance (just three choice bits)... and one from later - the preparations to climb the wall..

~snipped~

Jon thinks of Jarl as a "young man" and Mance calls him young because, for one thing, he's far younger than the other wildling men present. In the same chapter, Jon will see Mance in memory as a "young ranger" when he visited WF with Qorgyle. Given that 10-11 years have passed, Mance probably had to be in his mid twenties at the time. So, "young" covers quite a bit of ground.

Later, Jon thinks Jarl can't be older than twenty, and I think 20 is probably very close to on the button. Raiding for 8 yrs already... and we know Squirrel went on her first raid at 12. It would probably not be much different for boys, knowing that generally, girls mature more quickly.

~snipped~

Though I always allow that Val could be in her early twenties.. I secretly lean more toward late teens..18, 19 not more. (not just for mushy reasons - she would be a parallel for Jon and Dany as a young leader among her people.)

I like that Val and Jarl are sharing a horn of mead, considering the way I think Tormund uses mead (sort of inviting the blessing of the gods on some interaction or enterprise) .. the plan to climb the wall under joint command of Jarl and Styr is probably already in the works. It seems to me Jarl is more than just Val's lover. Called Val's pet and Mance's pet in the text .. I think both are meant in the sense of "protege" 

~snipped~

I think Val is about 21/22? I think she is a little more "mature" than some of the younger girls, even the wildling ones like Ygritte that sorta had to mature quicker to survive the climate. I think Ygritte was 19? Is that right? So, not a huge difference, but I do think Val has some specialized training somewhere that will help her fall more easily into the noble houses that remain after the Long Night 2.0. George demonstrates that she is one of the characters in the story that know the difference between important details like, "m'lord", and, "my lord." And Jon, of all people, makes her the midwife for Dalla. And Maester Aemon calls on Val a few times to help with the health of the two wildling babies at CB at that time- and not as a wet nurse!

If you are like me, one that likes to look for the symbolism in names, Jarl is the old word for Earl meaning nobility or chieftain, so Jarl seems to have been somewhat high ranking within his society to begin with, which all goes along with Val's apparent higher ranking symbolism that surrounds her.

[bemused]

@Lord Varys and @The Fattest Leech

Yeah, rationally I accept the idea of Val in her early twenties, and if that turns out to be the case, I'm OK with that.. I just have a feeling about the young'uns (as well as bastards, cripples and broken things) coming to the fore (Heck, even Tyrion is either the youngest son of Tywin or the youngest son of Aerys and is still only 27 in the year 300). And George seems to avoid giving Val's age ,when he often does give a character's age, at least by appearance.

I'm not attempting to dig up proofs, just registering my vibrating antennae.

Jarl - For me, his name reflecting nobility in our world, is another thing supporting the idea that Mance was grooming him for leadership.

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, bemused said:

@Lord Varys and @The Fattest Leech

Yeah, rationally I accept the idea of Val in her early twenties, and if that turns out to be the case, I'm OK with that.. I just have a feeling about the young'uns (as well as bastards, cripples and broken things) coming to the fore (Heck, even Tyrion is either the youngest son of Tywin or the youngest son of Aerys and is still only 27 in the year 300). And George seems to avoid giving Val's age ,when he often does give a character's age, at least by appearance.

I'm not attempting to dig up proofs, just registering my vibrating antennae.

Jarl - For me, his name reflecting nobility in our world, is another thing supporting the idea that Mance was grooming him for leadership.

George does play a bit with the perception of age with some of the characters. Some we imagine to be younger than they actually are, despite the mentioning of age, while others we imagine to be older, just because. The whole "pet" concept makes us think he's about the same age as Jon. Or the "squire" label makes us think that Olyvar Frey is a kid.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, bemused said:

@Lord Varys and @The Fattest Leech

Yeah, rationally I accept the idea of Val in her early twenties, and if that turns out to be the case, I'm OK with that.. I just have a feeling about the young'uns (as well as bastards, cripples and broken things) coming to the fore (Heck, even Tyrion is either the youngest son of Tywin or the youngest son of Aerys and is still only 27 in the year 300). And George seems to avoid giving Val's age ,when he often does give a character's age, at least by appearance.

I'm not attempting to dig up proofs, just registering my vibrating antennae.

Jarl - For me, his name reflecting nobility in our world, is another thing supporting the idea that Mance was grooming him for leadership.

The wildling culture makes it unlikely that Mance was grooming anybody for leadership. He integrated people into his system but the system was dependent on him and broke to pieces as soon as he was gone. People like Harma, Varamyr or the Weeper would never have bowed to a pup like Jarl.

They only suck up to Jon later on because they all know they will die if they stay on their side of the Wall. If they were living in a time where there were no Others running around a man like Mance might never have united the wildlings because the other chieftains and leaders were dreaming of conquest and plunder.

George is very bad with ages and there it is correct that there are very few old people in this series, usually only among the advisers (Luwin, Pycelle, Aemon, etc.) but the focus on young POVs is due to the original plan of more time passing between/during the books going awry.

[PirateVergo]

If Jon has to be romantically involved with anyone it has to be Val

From best to worst it's : Val > Alys > Any woman that isn't related to him > Sansa > Dany >>>>>> Arya

 

[Stormourne]

Should Jon survive the books, then he'd maybe need to get married if he becomes a lord or king. And if he needs to get married, it will be not out of love, but duty. For the good of the realm. Val would not be top pick, yes? She is a princess in name only, and by southerners. She has no legitimate power, nor assets and manpower to contribute. Should Jon successfully defeat the northern usurpers, and reclaim his home for not only his own people, but the wildling refugees, then they'd be grateful to him, so much so that they'd start a process of change that might take generations to complete - a transition from wildling to northerner (Think Vikings becoming Normans in history).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Should Jon survive the books, then he'd maybe need to get married if he becomes a lord or king. And if he needs to get married, it will be not out of love, but duty. For the good of the realm. Val would not be top pick, yes? She is a princess in name only, and by southerners. She has no legitimate power, nor assets and manpower to contribute. Should Jon successfully defeat the northern usurpers, and reclaim his home for not only his own people, but the wildling refugees, then they'd be grateful to him, so much so that they'd start a process of change that might take generations to complete - a transition from wildling to northerner (Think Vikings becoming Normans in history).

Val brings the same thing that Nymeria brought thousands of years ago. She may doesn't have the title of a Princess but the fact that she was able to bring Tormund and his people to Jon proves that if she doesn’t yield some kind of power people respect and listen to her, probably because she is a priestess of the Old Gods. In any case what Val brings in the Free Folk.

[A Bastard Brother]

excellent thread. It took me longer than I care to admit to get through all of it. I want this to happen, but i dont see it being GRRM's way of doing things. I like the idea of her being involved with his healing/resurrection in some form. Possibly burning the body in front of the Wierwood tree. I see Jon being forced to do his duty and marry who he needs over who he wants. Jon will look to his father (Ned) and see how this worked out well, and his brother (Robb) and see how that worked out. If he finds out that R+L=J he will see how that shining example lead to a full on war. In my hopeful little part that GRRM hasn't destroyed yet I see a way that fits all though. I don't see there being 7 kingdoms ruled by 1 and an Iron Throne mattering in the South. I think multiple rulers will emerge at the end. I could see Jon being propped up for the North. In this case marrying an influential wildling could fulfill his duty to unite the wildlings and the northerners.

[bemused]

On 1/6/2017 at 5:09 AM, Lord Varys said:

The wildling culture makes it unlikely that Mance was grooming anybody for leadership. He integrated people into his system but the system was dependent on him and broke to pieces as soon as he was gone. People like Harma, Varamyr or the Weeper would never have bowed to a pup like Jarl.

.. <snip>..

George is very bad with ages and there it is correct that there are very few old people in this series, usually only among the advisers (Luwin, Pycelle, Aemon, etc.) but the focus on young POVs is due to the original plan of more time passing between/during the books going awry.

I completely disagree with the first point.We'll have to see how it plays out , but I think there are definite signs that Mance was attempting to incorporate the good features of both the cultures he had known into his vision for the free folk.

He would see the wildling idea of following the strong leader as a plus, but the lack of hereditary leadership ensures chaos when the leader dies... However the NW model of grooming promising young men for leadership (as a Lord would prepare his heirs), provides strong candidates for the next choosing. It might have translated well into wildling culture, since he would still have to win his followers.

Mance was in a strong position vs. the NW, and considering their pitiful numbers, he had reason to expect to live quite a while yet. Jarl is not exactly a "pup" and would be much less so by the time a transfer of power became necessary. If he developed to have many of the same attributes that made the people follow Mance, the old pattern might have been broken.

(We have yet to see whether the Weeper will accept the terms of a pup like Jon and if he won't, we've yet to see how many of his followers will desert him.)

On 1/9/2017 at 2:58 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Val brings the same thing that Nymeria brought thousands of years ago. She may doesn't have the title of a Princess but the fact that she was able to bring Tormund and his people to Jon proves that if she doesn’t yield some kind of power people respect and listen to her, probably because she is a priestess of the Old Gods. In any case what Val brings in the Free Folk.

I agree. There are many signs that she wields power and authority in her own right.

On 1/9/2017 at 7:23 AM, A Bastard Brother said:

excellent thread. It took me longer than I care to admit to get through all of it. I want this to happen, but i dont see it being GRRM's way of doing things. I like the idea of her being involved with his healing/resurrection in some form. Possibly burning the body in front of the Wierwood tree. I see Jon being forced to do his duty and marry who he needs over who he wants. Jon will look to his father (Ned) and see how this worked out well, and his brother (Robb) and see how that worked out. If he finds out that R+L=J he will see how that shining example lead to a full on war. In my hopeful little part that GRRM hasn't destroyed yet I see a way that fits all though. I don't see there being 7 kingdoms ruled by 1 and an Iron Throne mattering in the South. I think multiple rulers will emerge at the end. I could see Jon being propped up for the North. In this case marrying an influential wildling could fulfill his duty to unite the wildlings and the northerners.

I don't think Jon will be forced to choose duty over love... I think Val will neatly satisfy both ideals because mutual attraction already exists and because of the "Nymeria" factor mentioned above. ( I agree with the probability of a power sharing structure emerging at the end.)

Over in the Jon and Val Compendium thread by @Jon's Queen Consort ...  http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144778-jon-and-val-compendium/

@The Fattest Leech and @three-eyed monkey invoke Stannis' plans for Val as a clue that they will(?) be together.

Sam reddened. King Stannis had plans for Val, he knew; she was the mortar with which he meant to seal the peace between the northmen and the free folk ...Sam I, AFFC

I might have had her. Her, and Winterfell, and my lord father’s name. Instead he had chosen a black cloak and a wall of ice.  ... Jon III, ADWD

I agree .. to an extent. I mean yes, it's a clue, but story-wise, once again, Stannis wants the right thing for the wrong reasons ... or, he has it almost right, but it shouldn't be contingent on loyalty to Stannis.

Jon's thoughts point out the problems... "my lord father's name" (well, that's a can of worms...) ; "instead he had chosen, etc.." .. I'm convinced the need for choice will turn out to be artificial as a result of the drastic political upheaval that is in process (perhaps presaged by the appearance of Borroq's huge black boar) and the doubt that is increasingly being cast on the validity of the NW vows as currently structured and understood.

I think Jon and Val belong together, just as Jon and Ghost belong together and as Jon and the Wall belong together.

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, bemused said:

I agree. There are many signs that she wields power and authority in her own right.

This is something that people overlook. Val may not have the Westerosi kind or social power but the fact that she was able to bring Tormund and his people and convince them to “bend the knee” to Jon proves that she does have some power among the Free Folk and that people respect her. Just like Nymeria with her people.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, bemused said:

I completely disagree with the first point.We'll have to see how it plays out , but I think there are definite signs that Mance was attempting to incorporate the good features of both the cultures he had known into his vision for the free folk.

So you think Mance wouldn't have wanted his son by Dalla - who he most likely would also groom for command - to succeed him? I find that hard to believe.

In addition, I don't think Mance intended to keep his kingship for long. His 'army' was an army of refugees. While they had a chance to overwhelm the Night's Watch they would have to reach a compromise with/submit to the Lords of the Seven Kingdoms/the Iron Throne if they intended to live on their lands without being facing destruction at their hands.

And they would most likely not allow Mance to remain a king in that setting.

53 minutes ago, bemused said:

He would see the wildling idea of following the strong leader as a plus, but the lack of hereditary leadership ensures chaos when the leader dies... However the NW model of grooming promising young men for leadership (as a Lord would prepare his heirs), provides strong candidates for the next choosing. It might have translated well into wildling culture, since he would still have to win his followers.

We can be sure that this is done also among the wildlings. While they don't have hereditary kings it seems pretty clear that a son or close relative of some clan chief is more likely than not to inherit his hall and his position. It might not go as smoothly as it does in the Seven Kingdoms but it is quite clear that children can follow in the footsteps of their parents if they are properly trained and charismatic/capable enough to prove their leadership qualities.

53 minutes ago, bemused said:

Mance was in a strong position vs. the NW, and considering their pitiful numbers, he had reason to expect to live quite a while yet. Jarl is not exactly a "pup" and would be much less so by the time a transfer of power became necessary. If he developed to have many of the same attributes that made the people follow Mance, the old pattern might have been broken.

We learn that most of the really powerful people around Mance - Varamyr, Harma, the Weeper, Tormund, etc. - have been powerful leaders in their own right. Jarl is not counted among them, and thus it is more likely than not that the wildlings would have lost their unity (as they did) after Mance's death or defeat. Right now the Weeper is the most powerful of the wildling leaders, capable of drawing on most of the survivors, aside from the fools who went to Hardhome.

53 minutes ago, bemused said:

(We have yet to see whether the Weeper will accept the terms of a pup like Jon and if he won't, we've yet to see how many of his followers will desert him.)

Jon never delivered any terms to the Weeper, did he not? And the last time Jon tried to offer the Weeper a deal the Weeper gave him three skulls without eyes. The Weeper is preparing his forces for another attack on the Bridge of Skulls and the Shadow Tower, and he has every chance to succeed. The man is not likely to sit on his hands while Jon is dead.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The curious lack of reference to Val's age troubles me. Could it be deliberate?

Maybe there is more behind it. Maybe, like Mellisandre, she is hundreds of years old, and kept young/ageless looking by magic?

Just putting it out there. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The curious lack of reference to Val's age troubles me. Could it be deliberate. Maybe thereia more behind it. Maybe, like Mellisandre, she is hundreds of years old, and kept somewhat young/ageless looking by magic?

Just putting it out there. 

I know what you mean. Jon is a cub pup and seems to like cougars snow bears

About the possibility of a Val-age-glamour... it is suspected that Mel's ruby is what keep her looking young, and probably enthralled to someone else???, but we don't see Val with anything like that. Not even a moonstone like Bloodraven had. While I am not shouting an emphatic "NO", I just don't think we have enough info on that. And besides, she seems fairly well known to the other Free Folk and they don't seem weary of her or anything. Oh, and Ghost likes Val naturally, unlike with Mel when Mel was using a spell at the time.

Always trust your dog. If your dog doesn't like your *girlfriend, time for a new girl

(or boyfriend)

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I know what you mean. Jon is a cub pup and seems to like cougars snow bears

About the possibility of a Val-age-glamour... it is suspected that Mel's ruby is what keep her looking young, and probably enthralled to someone else???, but we don't see Val with anything like that. Not even a moonstone like Bloodraven had. While I am not shouting an emphatic "NO", I just don't think we have enough info on that. And besides, she seems fairly well known to the other Free Folk and they don't seem weary of her or anything. Oh, and Ghost likes Val naturally, unlike with Mel when Mel was using a spell at the time.

Always trust your dog. If your dog doesn't like your *girlfriend, time for a new girl

(or boyfriend)

The point about Ghost settles it for me. Good call.

[bemused]

@Lord Varys Well, we'll never agree, because we don't agree on some of the really basic elements.. I believe both Dalla and Val are seers - wise women.. something more than your run-of-the-mill woods witches...(I know you see nothing special in them , in Val anyway.. but many of us do, based on our reading of the text, not flights of romantic fantasy) .. Dalla assisted Mance and lent him cachet (I don't mean that to take anything away from Mance's own efforts to become KbtW, but that hers added to them).

I think George is adhering to some degree of the Norse model of a Vala (witch/priestess/seeress) bonding with a chieftain, sometimes marrying him - because she sees greatness in him, and wishes to aid his rise to greatness.(Of course only George knows how close that adherence will be.)

Jarl was seen as a rising young leader and Mance would not have been planning on dying just yet. Val aligning herself with Jarl at this stage would lend him cachet, as Dalla did for Mance. I'm sure Mance would hope that his son might be able to follow in his footsteps (based on his own merit) but it would be thought to be many years before that would be tested. In the meantime, Mance had identified a young leader who he could mold into the kind of leader the FF would need.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We can be sure that this is done also among the wildlings. While they don't have hereditary kings it seems pretty clear that a son or close relative of some clan chief is more likely than not to inherit his hall and his position. It might not go as smoothly as it does in the Seven Kingdoms but it is quite clear that children can follow in the footsteps of their parents if they are properly trained and charismatic/capable enough to prove their leadership qualities.

Though we can't say it can't happen, don't see any examples of this working out too well for anyone in the text, for whatever reason.. It's certainly not "more likely than not" or it should be apparent in the text... No-one seems to have a lot of respect for Gerrick KIngsblood, e.g. (and where are his followers?)

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We learn that most of the really powerful people around Mance - Varamyr, Harma, the Weeper, Tormund, etc. - have been powerful leaders in their own right. Jarl is not counted among them, and thus it is more likely than not that the wildlings would have lost their unity (as they did) after Mance's death or defeat. Right now the Weeper is the most powerful of the wildling leaders, capable of drawing on most of the survivors, aside from the fools who went to Hardhome.

There's no use arguing what anyone would have done, if Mance was dead or defeated at this stage and Jarl was trying to take power. All those leaders except Tormund and the Weeper are dead Mance is apparently dead and defeated and Jarl is dead. Tormund has allied with Jon. Harma's brothers have allied with Jon. (and the Thenns are more like regular northerners in this respect)

Jarl had already been singled out before Jon joined the wildlings. Physically, he's not dissimilar to Jon and not much older. I think his was a case of visionary mis-identification (which was rectified by the Wall).

Jon is the man Mance , Dalla and Val were looking for.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon never delivered any terms to the Weeper, did he not? And the last time Jon tried to offer the Weeper a deal the Weeper gave him three skulls without eyes. The Weeper is preparing his forces for another attack on the Bridge of Skulls and the Shadow Tower, and he has every chance to succeed. The man is not likely to sit on his hands while Jon is dead.

Jon has never even met the Weeper. We don't know if the 3 rangers ever got the chance to talk to him.. and it's certain Jon's terms have not been presented by another respected wildling such as Val. Many, if not all of the people with him are probably unaware that Jon is offering any terms.

But Anyway, here we are back at a point of very basic disagreement, since I don't think Jon is dead, and I even think he may not be fully unconscious, as argued here..

This is a side issue to this thread..I'm not wanting to discuss it in detail here.

 

[desire]

Tbh i always have wanted to know  only death can pay for life since Jon has died to a sense and if he comes back into the books is that the answer to daenerys puzzle? I know the full speech etc.....