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Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.


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5 hours ago, bemused said:

@Lord Varys Well, we'll never agree, because we don't agree on some of the really basic elements.. I believe both Dalla and Val are seers - wise women.. something more than your run-of-the-mill woods witches...(I know you see nothing special in them , in Val anyway.. but many of us do, based on our reading of the text, not flights of romantic fantasy) .. Dalla assisted Mance and lent him cachet (I don't mean that to take anything away from Mance's own efforts to become KbtW, but that hers added to them).

I'm seeing some hints there, too. I'm very aware of Dalla's talk about magic being a sword without a hilt. She wasn't stupid. But that's not to be expected in Mance's wife. The man wouldn't choose a woman just because she had a pretty face. Val is just her sister. Dalla could have been a witch or a sorceress, somebody with magical powers, but she is dead. Val isn't Dalla, though.

The problem is that we had enough time to actually explicitly learn that there is a female priest or seer caste among some of the free folk. There is no reason to keep that kind of thing a secret. If Val was special people would refer to as Val the seer, Val the priestess, Val the sorceress, etc., either in the Common or the Old Tongue. Nothing indicates that the wildlings are a secretive people, hell-bent on keeping the details of their society and lifestyle a secret. Their motives and goal are another matter. Jon is a potential enemy agent and thus it makes sense to not inform him about their plans with the Horn of Winter, and so on.

5 hours ago, bemused said:

I think George is adhering to some degree of the Norse model of a Vala (witch/priestess/seeress) bonding with a chieftain, sometimes marrying him - because she sees greatness in him, and wishes to aid his rise to greatness.(Of course only George knows how close that adherence will be.)

That is not a good way to interpret stuff or build theories. I usually don't even read long and elaborate theories where the people disclaim at the start that they are presupposing something they cannot plausibly verify. Presupposing George has read something you like, or cares about stuff you like to the same degree you do only makes sense if you can show it to be true. If you can't, there is no reason to care about your theory all that much.

In regards to your theory laid out above you would have to show me that there is at least one example aside from Dalla-Mance where this model you suggest is realized, so that we would have reason to believe it could plausibly make sense. In light of the fact that women can become clan leaders and war chieftains, too (e.g. Harma), I see no reason to assume that this is something that happens often nor is there any reason to believe that there are powerful priestesses among the wildlings making up a caste that stands aloof or aside from more mundane matters.

5 hours ago, bemused said:

Jarl was seen as a rising young leader and Mance would not have been planning on dying just yet. Val aligning herself with Jarl at this stage would lend him cachet, as Dalla did for Mance. I'm sure Mance would hope that his son might be able to follow in his footsteps (based on his own merit) but it would be thought to be many years before that would be tested. In the meantime, Mance had identified a young leader who he could mold into the kind of leader the FF would need.

And why shouldn't we got with Mance and Dalla and Val and Jarl not just having the hots for each other? I mean, this doesn't have to complicated or multi-layered, right? Dalla and Val are attractive women, and Jarl seems to have been a fine and capable young lad. Not necessarily the greatest of leaders but a strong and dashing young raider, leading his own band. That should be enough for a gorgeous young woman, I'm sure.

We could easily make a case that Mance considered Styr, Jarl, and their men expendable, unlike the war leaders that remained with him and the army during the march. Climbing the Wall and attacking Castle Black from behind was a gamble. It would have been great if it worked, but Mance knows the numbers, he knows he has the upper hand and that he'll win regardless whether his people take or fail to take Castle Black. He also knows that he is not going to lose all that many men in the fight against the NW considering that he knows in what shape the defenses of the Wall and that he has giants and mammoths to break the gates.

If Jarl had been 'Mance's heir' he would have been at his side, not on some mission on the other side of the Wall. That suggests that he was a young rash man, eager to prove his worth.

5 hours ago, bemused said:

Though we can't say it can't happen, don't see any examples of this working out too well for anyone in the text, for whatever reason.. It's certainly not "more likely than not" or it should be apparent in the text... No-one seems to have a lot of respect for Gerrick KIngsblood, e.g. (and where are his followers?).

Gerrick Kingsblood isn't a descendant of Raymun Redbeard. He is of the same bloodline, but not directly descended from him. And while most of the wildlings don't take him seriously he must have a small following or else he wouldn't run around bearing that name.

Tormund seems to treat his sons (possibly Toregg, now that only he and Dryn are still alive) as his eventual successors. Whether that matters now that they are far away from Ruddy Hall isn't clear, though. Harma's brother Halleck also sort of takes over after her death, suggesting that this kind of thing is not uncommon.

5 hours ago, bemused said:

There's no use arguing what anyone would have done, if Mance was dead or defeated at this stage and Jarl was trying to take power. All those leaders except Tormund and the Weeper are dead Mance is apparently dead and defeated and Jarl is dead. Tormund has allied with Jon. Harma's brothers have allied with Jon. (and the Thenns are more like regular northerners in this respect).

Still, we see the wildlings fracturing very quickly after the lost battle, suggesting that they had no plan. It was Mance keeping them together, and only Mance, and now Mance is gone.

Mother Mole wasn't a prominent leader among Mance's people yet her vision attracted the majority of the wildlings after the battle. That gives a very accurate picture how fickle and desperate they were. Mance's movement was a movement of desperate people.

5 hours ago, bemused said:

Jarl had already been singled out before Jon joined the wildlings. Physically, he's not dissimilar to Jon and not much older. I think his was a case of visionary mis-identification (which was rectified by the Wall).

Jon is the man Mance , Dalla and Val were looking for.

It is that kind of thinking that makes your points a lot less convincing. You assume stuff you cannot possibly prove. The very idea that Mance and Dalla were looking for some other guy to lead them is pretty far-fetched. They had no intention to fight against the Others, remember? They tried to flee.

And thinking about that - keep in mind that Mance is still alive. What do you think the wildlings are going to do if Mance returns from the dead and comes back to the Wall? One assumes that they will have their king again, don't you think?

5 hours ago, bemused said:

Jon has never even met the Weeper. We don't know if the 3 rangers ever got the chance to talk to him.. and it's certain Jon's terms have not been presented by another respected wildling such as Val. Many, if not all of the people with him are probably unaware that Jon is offering any terms.

So you think the Weeper captured three crows and did not meticulously torture them to learn everything from them that he wanted to know before he cut of their heads? I find that hard to believe. Perhaps they had to kill one or even two of them in some fighting, but not all three.

In addition, we know that the Weeper is a strong war leader who embodies power. People fear him, and the people following him might think that it is much better to cross the Bridge of Skulls and take the Shadow Tower than to serve the crows like the other fools did. There is a reason why more people decided to follow the Weeper than Tormund in the wake of Mance's defeat. And if the Weeper leads them successfully across the Bridge of Skulls they have to kneel to no one, have to give up no hostages, and can continue their traditional raiding lifestyle with impunity. A much better prospect than spending winter at the Wall, working with the crows, and being forced to fight against the Others.

If I were a wildling and value my freedom and saw a chance that we could make it across the Bridge of Skulls I'd follow the Weeper, regardless who came to offer me some offer to serve some crow.

And the idea that it was Val who convinced Tormund to accept Jon's offer makes little sense to me. It was Jon who did that, Jon and Tormund. These two liked each other, and Tormund most definitely felt he could believe Jon Snow's offer. One imagines Val way of phrasing the offer also helped, as did the fact that Tormund might have known she had been captured by Stannis' men, enabling him conclude that whatever offer she brought was genuine. But that's it. There is no great secret to all that.

It is not that Tormund had a lot of choice in the matter. It was either to die in the snow and raise blue-eyed at night, continue a hopeless and costly war, or to accept Jon's offer.

5 hours ago, bemused said:

But Anyway, here we are back at a point of very basic disagreement, since I don't think Jon is dead, and I even think he may not be fully unconscious, as argued here.

Still, you get my meaning. Jon is at least incapacitated right now while the Weeper was gathering his forces - thousands of wildlings, more than joined Tormund - throughout ADwD, enabling him to launch an attack on the Shadow Tower any minute now. In the wake of the assassination the people at Castle Black will have other priorities than trying to reach out to the Weeper, offering him a deal. And when they get back to that whole thing the Shadow Tower might already be a smoking ruin with a thousands of raiding willdings pouring down into the North.

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@Lord VarysI see where you're coming from but we still come down to basic differences. When you say..

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Presupposing George has read something you like, or cares about stuff you like to the same degree you do only makes sense if you can show it to be true.

I'm not presupposing based on my own likes or interests at all. I gradually began to see these clues only after seeing/reading a couple of interviews/Q&A's with George wherein he stated that he had created the religion of the old gods on the Norse model and a later one where he said Norse/Celtic.. Then I realised that both Val and Dalla's names echo the English name -"Vala" used for the most elite category of these Norse women - witches/healers/seers or prophetesses.

They appear in the mythology, but not as godesses.. and archaeology has found burials of obviously highly respected women containing artifacts specific to the Vala.(George doesn't incorporate these artifacts, but may be inventing some of his own in Val's weirwood pin and Morna's weirwood mask.. and maybe Val's bone knife...we'll have to see.) So they are historical figures not only mythological representations.(and we know how George loves history)

These women traveled about without fear of being interfered with, just as we see Val does. (They were supposedly welcomed and honoured wherever they went) ... some Vala (those of greater reputation for skill or accuracy) had acolytes and followers of their own.(It's possible that Val was Dalla's acolyte, not a blood sister.)

Such a woman might attach herself (as an advisor) to a chieftain in whom she saw potential. She might marry him and give up traveling about.

(Mance never says he stole Dalla, he says he met her, and he doesn't say whether anyone was with her, or not. Sounds like a mutually sought or agreed arrangement to me.)

In-story, we see a number of institutions (NW, KG) and religious orders whose members refer to each other as "brother" and though they're, well, silent, probably the Silent Sisters privately refer to each other/think of each other as "sisters", so the idea that "sisterhoods" can exist has also been established by George.

We've had multiple references to woods witches, wise women, prophetesses... 

Jenny of Oldstones' "woods witch" famously made a prophecy . It's also hinted that she may be a CoTF (and maybe the Ghost of High Heart). Wildlings are closer to the CoTF in belief and religious practice, than even the northmen.

And there are more clues than those I've mentioned here.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The problem is that we had enough time to actually explicitly learn that there is a female priest or seer caste among some of the free folk. There is no reason to keep that kind of thing a secret. If Val was special people would refer to as Val the seer, Val the priestess, Val the sorceress, etc., either in the Common or the Old Tongue.

Are you trying to say that George, the George, doesn't keep secrets.. store them up until he's ready to reveal them?.. We've had time.. but George hasn't . He's still writing. For his own reasons, he's not ready to tell us the details yet.. but he has given clues, if we're willing to notice them. Whether they're red herrings or not is, of course, another matter. ...(I think not, so my neck is happily stuck out.)

In-story, the Free Folk have good reasons to keep schtum. No.1 would be Melisandre who, along with Stannis, insists the FF renounce their gods and makes a point of burning whatever is connected to them i.e. weirwood. Val is Stannis' captive ..Mance and even Tormund might not risk revealing her status while Mel has any way/excuse to get at Val.. However, if Jon and Val become a couple first, then he can be drawn into the secret, which is a safer process than just blurting it out. (Same process as Stannis, Mel and Mance gradually drawing Jon into the Mance/ Rattleshirt secret.)

As for the rank and file wildlings they might just assume Jon does/should know - it's common knowledge to them (remember how aghast Ygritte was at Jon's limited view of what constitutes incest) and when the people at Tormund's camp see Jon and Val riding off together side by side, with Ghost "loping at their heels" (and with Val wearing what just may be ritual garb), they might simply assume that Jon knows, and is in the same sort of relationship as Jarl/Val or Mance/Dalla.

We don't know how the FF refer to Val in the old tongue, but there may not be a comparable word in the common tongue. ...E.g., I think Tormund also has a connection to the old gods - also based on the Norse model, wherein a chieftain functioned as priest as well as leader for his people - as a father did for his immediate family ... Some (not all) clues are in Tormund's titles - "Speaker-to-gods" and "Father-of-hosts" ..these might each be one word in the old tongue, for all we know.

These women did not stand " aloof or aside from more mundane matters." as you suggest .Some would be healers,or dispense love potions, some might also do a bit of seeing - help you to find your lost thimble.. Some might prophesy, but do no healing..For chieftains, according to the Norse model, advising (through visions) when and where would be the propitious time and place to confront your enemy was a major function. (Might be very useful, coming up)

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And why shouldn't we got with Mance and Dalla and Val and Jarl not just having the hots for each other?

Well I assume and hope they did have the hots for each other, because I like to think they were having a good time.. but I can't just go with that, because I think there are signs of something more going on. It's not a question of whether the story has to be multi-layered - I just happen to think it is, for the reasons I put forth.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Jarl had been 'Mance's heir' he would have been at his side, not on some mission on the other side of the Wall. That suggests that he was a young rash man, eager to prove his worth.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is that kind of thinking that makes your points a lot less convincing. You assume stuff you cannot possibly prove. The very idea that Mance and Dalla were looking for some other guy to lead them is pretty far-fetched. They had no intention to fight against the Others, remember? They tried to flee.

Jarl has been called Val's pet and Mance's pet. George wrote in that equivalence. Since I don't think there are signs that Mance was having a sexual relationship with Jarl, I'm taking "pet" in the sense of "favoured one" or "protege".

There are still signs that Val was sexually involved with Jarl.. e.g., sitting together sharing a horn of mead.(drinking from the same cup - a useful bit of symbolism)

I didn't say Mance and Dalla were looking for another guy to lead them, but someone who could potentially guide the FF boldly, but wisely if they died before time.

I disagree that Mance would want a potential future successor safe by his side, rather than out increasing his leadership skills. Leaving the Others aside, Mance didn't know, at that stage, how many clans or lords (or Kings) he would have to fight once he crossed the Wall. He had no heir of his blood. If the people scattered, they had less chance of survival. ... We know, looking ahead, that Dalla died in childbirth .The child might have as well, and couldn't have led for another 15 yrs. or so if he survived (assuming Mance lasted long enough to raise him)

I think the raven's wings on Mance's helm show that he credits what he learned on the Wall, not his hatred of the "black crows". Like a man's sigil, they announce part of his heritage.

No, I don't think that Mance can regain his former position among the FF.. not without starting from scratch. He's been defeated, and it will be known that Jon sent him on a mission (as he once sent Jon,Jarl and Styr).Visually, at least, he has accepted Jon's command. I think he'll fill a subordinate position (and I think he'll be alright with that, because like Jon, I think he really puts the common welfare first).

I really don't have time to address the Weeper.. and he's really OT here. I agree he's a dire threat and will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later... and it won't be easy. I do think it remains to be seen how many of his current "followers" cleave to him if they have other options.

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@bemused

Well, George may have not as accurate a knowledge about Norse beliefs as you do. The beliefs of the wildlings (Varamyr's parents and the woods witch comforting them) seems to be some form of animism.

I'm the first to acknowledge that there once were (likely rather) powerful priestesses amongst the First Men. We see one such in Bran's vision sacrificing some guy to the weirwood of Winterfell.

But nothing suggests that the free folk still practice human blood sacrifice to weirwood trees. If there had been any such a hints I'd be more inclined to believe that there was a (female) priest caste among the wildlings. After all, it is quite clear that the wildlings, too, have forgotten how to fight against the Others. Else they would have gotten themselves a lot of dragonglass weapons, right? If they still knew a lot of stuff then Mance wouldn't have been forced to flee. They don't even seem to have a close connection to the Children anymore.

I certainly don't doubt that there are wise women and witches among the wildlings. Dalla apparently knew stuff. The question is how much. And honestly, I never thought a man like Mance who wasn't raised as a wildling would ever steal a woman. I think he would treat her as the gentleman singer that he was, not as one of those horny singers from his songs (Bael; whoever tasted the Dornishman's wife).

I meant that Val being 'aloof' because she apparently is supposed to go wherever she wants. I very much doubt the Weeper would have treated her as kindly (or listened to her the same way) as Tormund did.

The idea that Val is not Dalla's sister is ridiculous if you ask me. You can suggests Val might have learned stuff from Dalla, you can even suggest she might have been her acolyte/apprentice/whatever in addition to being her sister, but out of the blue doubting that she is her biological sister while we have no reason to believe that there is some secret sisterhood order existing among the wildlings is crackpot.

In addition you should also keep in mind that there are hedge/wood wizards all over the place in Westeros, the Seven Kingdoms included. This is not restricted to females, suggesting that if there are magical/priestly traditions of the old First Men still alive among the wildlings their members could be both males and females.

And thinking about that chances for that aren't all that good unless those are very secret organizations because Varamyr - a wildlings who had a rather deep insight into the magical tradition north of the Wall - never mentioned any of that sort. Surely those priests and sorcerers would hang out with/recruit themselves out of the ranks of the skinchangers. Even if we assumed that they detested a man like Varamyr it is hardly convincing that he would never have found out that such people existed. Unless they are super secret organization for no good reason.

Well, I'm scratching my head right now but why the hell should it make sense for the plot to keep the existence of some priestesses/sorceresses among the wildlings a secret at this point in the story? We don't need to know what they know but not even telling us that they even exist? That doesn't make much sense. Val would be a much more important character on the spot if we know she was such a priestess and thus might have special knowledge.

Jon was among the wildlings long before Melisandre showed up. He would have seen those priestesses while he was living among the wildlings if they existed, and they would have had no reason to keep them a secret from him. And the idea that all the wildlings are as stupid as Ygritte, thinking stuff they know must also be evident for the kneelers who were raised in a different culture, doesn't make much sense either. That would make all the wildlings morons, not just Ygritte.

Oh, and Mance and Jarl could also have some fun, there is no harm in that. But pet there could really just mean that Mance saw potential in Jarl - but that doesn't mean he saw him as a potential successor. The more I think about that the less likely is that Mance gave a damn about this crap. He knew he was the last hope of his people, and that's it. He wanted to save them, not pass along his kingship, or establish some system or lasting rulership that wasn't dependent on his person. The idea that he made plans for his unborn child in light of the winter he know was coming is ridiculous.

As to Mance future role:

Leading the wildlings doesn't mean Mance can't also acknowledge another authority. He would presumably have done the same thing had he ever faced Eddard, Robb, or Robert in battle and survived, after he had crossed the Wall. And he wouldn't necessarily have to if Jon stays dead for quite some time. Mance also gave Jon a decent beating in the practice yard, which carries a certain symbolic meaning in itself, don't you think?

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@bemused this is great and thorough. I wouldn't add anything to it, but I just wanted to highlight a few parts because this is so spot on.

1 hour ago, bemused said:

@Lord VarysI see where you're coming from but we still come down to basic differences. When you say..

I'm not presupposing based on my own likes or interests at all. I gradually began to see these clues only after seeing/reading a couple of interviews/Q&A's with George wherein he stated that he had created the religion of the old gods on the Norse model and a later one where he said Norse/Celtic.. Then I realised that both Val and Dalla's names echo the English name -"Vala" used for the most elite category of these Norse women - witches/healers/seers or prophetesses.

Absolutely, sweetie darling!

George has said over and over where his inspiration comes from because it is not all his. To try and unwind the mysteries of the books without looking deeper and acknowledging the inspirations is like licking only the crust of a slice of pie yet claiming the filling is sour.

Where does your imagination come from?
Ideas are cheap. I have more ideas now than I could ever write up. To my mind, it's the execution that is all-important. I'm proud of my work, but I don't know if I'd ever claim it's enormously original. You look at Shakespeare, who borrowed all of his plots. In A Song of Ice and Fire, I take stuff from the Wars of the Roses and other fantasy things, and all these things work around in my head and somehow they jell into what I hope is uniquely my own. But I don't know where it comes from, yet it comes – it's always come. If I was a religious guy, I'd say it's a gift from God, but I'm not, so I can't say that.

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423

1 hour ago, bemused said:

They appear in the mythology, but not as godesses.. and archaeology has found burials of obviously highly respected women containing artifacts specific to the Vala.(George doesn't incorporate these artifacts, but may be inventing some of his own in Val's weirwood pin and Morna's weirwood mask.. and maybe Val's bone knife...we'll have to see.) So they are historical figures not only mythological representations.(and we know how George loves history)

These women traveled about without fear of being interfered with, just as we see Val does. (They were supposedly welcomed and honoured wherever they went) ... some Vala (those of greater reputation for skill or accuracy) had acolytes and followers of their own.(It's possible that Val was Dalla's acolyte, not a blood sister.)

Such a woman might attach herself (as an advisor) to a chieftain in whom she saw potential. She might marry him and give up traveling about.

(Mance never says he stole Dalla, he says he met her, and he doesn't say whether anyone was with her, or not. Sounds like a mutually sought or agreed arrangement to me.)

Absolutely. I can't tell you how excited I was after joining this forum just over a year ago and finally coming across your Val and Tormund thread. I was so happy I almost spilled my coffee. I was so happy because someone else saw the things I did and actually wrote about it and it all made sense.

Val (and for what we know of Dalla) is almost a walking Völva billboard. From dress, to ceremony, to name, to actions- all of it!

1 hour ago, bemused said:

In-story, we see a number of institutions (NW, KG) and religious orders whose members refer to each other as "brother" and though they're, well, silent, probably the Silent Sisters privately refer to each other/think of each other as "sisters", so the idea that "sisterhoods" can exist has also been established by George.

We've had multiple references to woods witches, wise women, prophetesses... 

Jenny of Oldstones' "woods witch" famously made a prophecy . It's also hinted that she may be a CoTF (and maybe the Ghost of High Heart). Wildlings are closer to the CoTF in belief and religious practice, than even the northmen.

Agreed. George does not have to hold the readers hand everytime a new character is brought on page. He sets up his world so we know what we are dealing with when the next thing comes around.

It was some months ago, in this very thread, that I made a detailed post as to what and where and who the "witches" of Planetos are. They exist and they are in places where the story needs them, and they don't need name tags that say, "Hello, my name is Woods Witch Val."

 

1 hour ago, bemused said:

And there are more clues than those I've mentioned here.

Are you trying to say that George, the George, doesn't keep secrets.. store them up until he's ready to reveal them?.. We've had time.. but George hasn't . He's still writing. For his own reasons, he's not ready to tell us the details yet.. but he has given clues, if we're willing to notice them. Whether they're red herrings or not is, of course, another matter. ...(I think not, so my neck is happily stuck out.)

Agreed. George has also admittedly moved chapters from book to book while rearranging things so who knows what should have been revealed earlier? The Theon 1/TWOW chapter is the first one off the top of my head. Many things from the first 2 or three books were pushed back to later books. George has stated this.

 

1 hour ago, bemused said:

In-story, the Free Folk have good reasons to keep schtum. No.1 would be Melisandre who, along with Stannis, insists the FF renounce their gods and makes a point of burning whatever is connected to them i.e. weirwood. Val is Stannis' captive ..Mance and even Tormund might not risk revealing her status while Mel has any way/excuse to get at Val.. However, if Jon and Val become a couple first, then he can be drawn into the secret, which is a safer process than just blurting it out. (Same process as Stannis, Mel and Mance gradually drawing Jon into the Mance/ Rattleshirt secret.)

Jon even notices that the Wildings are only doing the burning and such because they are desperate, and many are naked, and all are freezing to death. Stannis gives an ultimatum of bow or freeze.

 

1 hour ago, bemused said:

As for the rank and file wildlings they might just assume Jon does/should know - it's common knowledge to them (remember how aghast Ygritte was at Jon's limited view of what constitutes incest) and when the people at Tormund's camp see Jon and Val riding off together side by side, with Ghost "loping at their heels" (and with Val wearing what just may be ritual garb), they might simply assume that Jon knows, and is in the same sort of relationship as Jarl/Val or Mance/Dalla.

Yup. This is a whole other culture Jon is dealing with and that is one of the reasons Val and Tormund both tell him, "you know nothing," even in ADWD. Jon is acting out their customs without realizing it, but they see what is happening.

 

1 hour ago, bemused said:

We don't know how the FF refer to Val in the old tongue, but there may not be a comparable word in the common tongue. ...E.g., I think Tormund also has a connection to the old gods - also based on the Norse model, wherein a chieftain functioned as priest as well as leader for his people - as a father did for his immediate family ... Some (not all) clues are in Tormund's titles - "Speaker-to-gods" and "Father-of-hosts" ..these might each be one word in the old tongue, for all we know.

Excellent point. Jon does not even speak the old tongue. That is why Leathers has to translate for Wun Wun.

And isn't funny that Wun Wun is the one who is guarding Val when Ser Patrek goes to try and steal Val. Wun Wun knows what is up and stops it from happening. (drunk or not)

1 hour ago, bemused said:

These women did not stand " aloof or aside from more mundane matters." as you suggest .Some would be healers,or dispense love potions, some might also do a bit of seeing - help you to find your lost thimble.. Some might prophesy, but do no healing..For chieftains, according to the Norse model, advising (through visions) when and where would be the propitious time and place to confront your enemy was a major function. (Might be very useful, coming up)

Well I assume and hope they did have the hots for each other, because I like to think they were having a good time.. but I can't just go with that, because I think there are signs of something more going on. It's not a question of whether the story has to be multi-layered - I just happen to think it is, for the reasons I put forth.

Jarl has been called Val's pet and Mance's pet. George wrote in that equivalence. Since I don't think there are signs that Mance was having a sexual relationship with Jarl, I'm taking "pet" in the sense of "favoured one" or "protege".

There are still signs that Val was sexually involved with Jarl.. e.g., sitting together sharing a horn of mead.(drinking from the same cup - a useful bit of symbolism)

I didn't say Mance and Dalla were looking for another guy to lead them, but someone who could potentially guide the FF boldly, but wisely if they died before time.

I disagree that Mance would want a potential future successor safe by his side, rather than out increasing his leadership skills. Leaving the Others aside, Mance didn't know, at that stage, how many clans or lords (or Kings) he would have to fight once he crossed the Wall. He had no heir of his blood. If the people scattered, they had less chance of survival. ... We know, looking ahead, that Dalla died in childbirth .The child might have as well, and couldn't have led for another 15 yrs. or so if he survived (assuming Mance lasted long enough to raise him)

I think the raven's wings on Mance's helm show that he credits what he learned on the Wall, not his hatred of the "black crows". Like a man's sigil, they announce part of his heritage.

This and the fact that Mance (as Rattleshirt) fought with Jon in the yard and did not kill him, or even really injure him. The other guys around Jon get nervous that Mance-Shirt would kill Jon, but Jon points out Mance-Shirt could have but didn't because he has a dagger hidden in his boot.

I think this is also reflected in what you said about Mance wanting a potential successor. It is what Mance knows as a good thing to do, especially since he had been planning for a while to get the Free Folk south of the wall and he knew battle would be unavoidable (for the most part).

1 hour ago, bemused said:

No, I don't think that Mance can regain his former position among the FF.. not without starting from scratch. He's been defeated, and it will be known that Jon sent him on a mission (as he once sent Jon,Jarl and Styr).Visually, at least, he has accepted Jon's command. I think he'll fill a subordinate position (and I think he'll be alright with that, because like Jon, I think he really puts the common welfare first).

Oh yes. Mance, Val, Ygritte, and Tormund all talk about how they just want to keep people safe from the Others. Mance does not agree with King's Landing rules, but that is something that will have to be worked out, and we already kinda see that happening with Jon organizing the Free Folk and the Alys/Thenn marriage, etc. It will take work, but it can happen.

 

1 hour ago, bemused said:

I really don't have time to address the Weeper.. and he's really OT here. I agree he's a dire threat and will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later... and it won't be easy. I do think it remains to be seen how many of his current "followers" cleave to him if they have other options.

Real quickly about the Weeper... other posters have made points that he is just about the last wildling threat and he probably won't make it past the middle of TWOW because he is not needed anymore. He may be the first battle Jon has when he wakes and is battle ready, or the Weeper may die north of the wall and become a wight. Basically, the focus on him is about to fade away.

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57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@bemused

Well, George may have not as accurate a knowledge about Norse beliefs as you do. The beliefs of the wildlings (Varamyr's parents and the woods witch comforting them) seems to be some form of animism.

Animism is THE KEY driving factor/belief behind the Norse "religion". So much so that people never used the or called what they did a "religion" and it was practiced wherever a person saw fit. Everything has the potential to communicate with other beings from rocks to birds to rabbits. That is what we are seeing with Varamyr and all of the old gods stuff.

George knows about a buttload of things. Yes, that is an actual measurement.

You are telling us that George knows all about Zoroastrianism but he doesn't know about Norse mythology??? You do know George has said he uses Zoroastrianism as inspiration, right?

That is also why the Faith of 7 wanted to seal this type of practice off. You can;t make money at it... but this is another thread. Sorry. Back on topic. Back on topic.

 

Quote

I'm the first to acknowledge that there once were (likely rather) powerful priestesses amongst the First Men. We see one such in Bran's vision sacrificing some guy to the weirwood of Winterfell.

But nothing suggests that the free folk still practice human blood sacrifice to weirwood trees. If there had been any such a hints I'd be more inclined to believe that there was a (female) priest caste among the wildlings. After all, it is quite clear that the wildlings, too, have forgotten how to fight against the Others. Else they would have gotten themselves a lot of dragonglass weapons, right? If they still knew a lot of stuff then Mance wouldn't have been forced to flee. They don't even seem to have a close connection to the Children anymore.

I certainly don't doubt that there are wise women and witches among the wildlings. Dalla apparently knew stuff. The question is how much.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"The maesters say greyscale is not—"
"The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean!"
 
Quote

 

And honestly, I never thought a man like Mance who wasn't raised as a wildling would ever steal a woman. I think he would treat her as the gentleman singer that he was, not as one of those horny singers from his songs (Bael; whoever tasted the Dornishman's wife).

 

 

Mance treats Dalla very well. He says nice things to her, asks her to be treated nicely "like you would any queen", and when Dalla interrupts Mance to explain battle, Mance's response is that he found, "a wise woman."

Again, you seem to forget the concept of stealing is NOT about the word, but about the fact that it is a marriage practice, and while not like that south of the wall, it is a two-way street that involves both parties and even families.

You keep willfully ignoring this point even though a major point of Jon going and living with Free Folk was to learn about them and how they are NOT the boogeymen they are made out to be. They are just like those south of the wall. That is the point.

 

 

 

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@The Fattest Leech  What can I say but Thank You . and I relate to so many of your opinions, too.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm the first to acknowledge that there once were (likely rather) powerful priestesses amongst the First Men. We see one such in Bran's vision sacrificing some guy to the weirwood of Winterfell.

But nothing suggests that the free folk still practice human blood sacrifice to weirwood trees. If there had been any such a hints I'd be more inclined to believe that there was a (female) priest caste among the wildlings.

I think w-a-a-a-y too much importance is given to blood sacrifice ,or it's necessity. There was no evidence of the CoTF practicing it, until the release of the World book, and that was given by a maester long, long after the fact. It might be propoganda, or it might be true..it was supposedly done in a very dire situation, by CoTF and First Men. My feeling is that the idea of blood sacrifice was probably brought to Westeros by the First Men, connected to whatever religion they practiced at the time, and it was so ingrained that they clung to it even as they adopted the religion of the CoTF.(Of course blood magic works because magic exists, not because some actual god craves it.)

I think if the CoTF used blood magic, it had more to do with feeding the blood of the tree to men, than the other way around (See Bran ...and Bugger Jojen-paste ! :angry: ..pardon me...)

I hope you're not suggesting that every vision or prophecy required a blood sacrifice.

The examples of Maggy the Frog and the Ghost of High Heart tasting a drop (and only a drop) of a person's blood in order to foresee their specific future is quite another thing.

George purposely clouds the issue by making Mother Mole a somewhat comical figure..and old woman who lives in a hollow under a tree.. OH.. perhaps in emulation of the CoTF ? .. and I would not brush off her power or authority when thousands were willing to follow her on a hazardous journey to a place of dire repute on the strength of her vision.... why didn't they search for Tormund or the Weeper instead ?

I've pointed out that in the Norse model, the clan leader is the priest , but men could participate in some of the women's rituals. For some rituals, though, it was considered unmanly (playing a female role)... A ritual was often believed to be more powerful if other women who knew the ritual joined in with the Völva. Visions were sought through singing or sitting out alone at night. (Think of Val "singing to herself" or when seen alone on the roof of a tower at night)

Sure, hedge wizards exist.. but it's never mentioned that they are given to prophesy ... http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hedge_wizard ...

"A hedge wizard is a Westerosi local or traveling herb-doctor who also likely uses traditional healing, spells and charms to heal the sick or help the needy.

Like hedge knights they are probably quite poor and sleep in hedges on occasion. They are probably most popular amongst the smallfolk as they are likely to be more affordable and accessible. Nobles probably do not employ the services of hedge wizards or if they do so they do it clandestinely." 

 

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I'm scratching my head right now but why the hell should it make sense for the plot to keep the existence of some priestesses/sorceresses among the wildlings a secret at this point in the story? We don't need to know what they know but not even telling us that they even exist?

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For some reason, I couldn't get my cursor to move under that box, so I'm continuing here.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I'm scratching my head right now but why the hell should it make sense for the plot to keep the existence of some priestesses/sorceresses among the wildlings a secret at this point in the story? We don't need to know what they know but not even telling us that they even exist?

It's George's plot and he's developing it at his preferred rate.. I can't help that it makes no sense to you..It's making sense to me.

We've been shown over and over that these women exist at one level,and have been given good hints that they exist at a more elite level. Even you are willing to believe it might be true of Dalla...  

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon was among the wildlings long before Melisandre showed up. He would have seen those priestesses while he was living among the wildlings if they existed, and they would have had no reason to keep them a secret from him. And the idea that all the wildlings are as stupid as Ygritte, thinking stuff they know must also be evident for the kneelers who were raised in a different culture, doesn't make much sense either. That would make all the wildlings morons, not just Ygritte.

Jon was with them for a relatively short time and probably did see them (he certainly saw Val and Dalla).. but unless they're doing ritual, they dress like anyone else.. They were on the march south... Mance already had his plan.. any decisions that might have required seeking a vision were already made .. and as you point out.. they were fleeing ..therefore, not stopping to take any more time than was necessary.. and then Jon split off on his mission with Jarl ..

The Ygritte stuff doesn't warrant a response and neither does the Varamyr stuff earlier...

I never denied that Val could be Dalla's blood sister (and her acolyte as well) I just like to point out that she may not be.. it could be a deliberate move on George's part to disguise Val's true nature until he's ready to reveal it... She's called a wildling princess because she's Dalla's sister.. Well, we know at least half of that's wrong. For all we know, the other half is too.. it won't matter much to the eventual plot, but might be helping George to keep a secret in the meantime. I think she's probably a specific type of  Völva, a  spækona - a seer (she first wants a midwife when Dalla is giving birth and later refers Jon to a woods witch about Greyscale .. in other words, in matters of healing)

I think we've reached the point (as we sometimes do) Where your arguments just seem to become deliberately contrarian (for its own sake), and not really focused on getting to the truth of the matter... and it ceases to be a fun discussion.

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20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@bemused

...

Well, I'm scratching my head right now but why the hell should it make sense for the plot to keep the existence of some priestesses/sorceresses among the wildlings a secret at this point in the story? We don't need to know what they know but not even telling us that they even exist? That doesn't make much sense. Val would be a much more important character on the spot if we know she was such a priestess and thus might have special knowledge.

Well, as to this point, I just happened to come across this reminder in the books while looking for something totally unrelated to this topic. The books do tell us they exist in current time. The wildlings call them wisewomen. Another "translation" issue like "stealing".

In general to the thread: This part is also curious because Mance calls Dalla his "wisewoman", and Dalla dies, which leaves Val as her sister (by blood and/or occupation) to pick up where Dalla left off. And the first time we see Val in the Völva roll is when Dalla is giving birth and Jon "assigns" her as the midwife- which is the same scene when Jon steals Val. So, for anyone who suspects that Jon will be healed somehow by Val, here we see a familial tradition being passed on, and the next healer in line heals the "king" with potions until he is strong again. :

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"A cloak?"

"The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch," said the King-beyond-the-Wall. "One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadow-cat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?" He chuckled. "It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me." He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. "But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears . . . and most of all, no red. The men of the Night's Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said.

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

"Go inside the tent and stay with Dalla. It's not safe out here." It wouldn't be a great deal safer inside, but she didn't need to hear that.
"I need to find the midwife," Val said.
"You're the midwife. I'll stay here until Mance comes back."
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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me." He swept the cloak back over his shoulders.

Thanks for this, my little chick-a-dee.. I've frequently pointed to it in the past.. some bits I've remarked on before: an old wisewoman did some healing. ..implies to me that healing was not her first (or maybe only) calling.. Her daughter was most probably following in her footsteps (although most women know their mother's recipes,etc., etc.)... But, it would be customary, even in Westeros, for the patient to reward the healer, not the other way around (especially with her greatest treasure). So it says to me that the daughter "saw" something in Mance , or something about him in the future, that warranted the gift. ... This daughter could even be Dalla. That Mance "met" her on his way back from WF.. doesn't rule out that he'd met her before... Perhaps even several times over the intervening years. During that time each of them would be refining their own skills, gaining in expertise and reputation, culminating in marriage and leading the people together.

Yep. That's speculation.

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Hey, look what I happen to come across. It is George in an interview talking about the religions of Westeros and how he uses Norse mythology (and few others) in his religion of the north. Video

So, I guess it is safe to say that making comparisons to Dalla and Val, and even how Jon is an Odin figure, actually is quite plausible in the books.

 

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10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hey, look what I happen to come across. It is George in an interview talking about the religions of Westeros and how he uses Norse mythology (and few others) in his religion of the north. Video

So, I guess it is safe to say that making comparisons to Dalla and Val, and even how Jon is an Odin figure, actually is quite plausible in the books.

 

Well, he uses a disclaimer that he usually just uses real religions an inspiration. The whole stuff about the serial numbers. As far as we know pretty much the only thing we know about Norse religion/mythology comes from Christian scribes from the 11th century. Sure, we also have archaeological findings of stuff but those are then open to interpretation, etc. We don't have any primary sources on that kind stuff.

On 14.1.2017 at 3:22 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Animism is THE KEY driving factor/belief behind the Norse "religion". So much so that people never used the or called what they did a "religion" and it was practiced wherever a person saw fit. Everything has the potential to communicate with other beings from rocks to birds to rabbits. That is what we are seeing with Varamyr and all of the old gods stuff.

Sure, but they also had actual deities they worshiped, at least if the Edda isn't a complete invention. The key element in the religion of the Children and the First Men (if they adapted it more or less unchanged) is that there actually are no gods. There is only the world and the living things in it, and the greenseers and the weirwoods.

The old gods essentially seem to be nothing but the greenseers, at least in the corrupted version of the belief the Northmen (and possibly the wildlings as well) follow to this day. Back in the days when the First Men still sent their talented young folk to the Children in their hollow hills beneath the weirwood groves to become greenseers they would have known what this all was about. But they no longer do this kind thing, neither north nor south of the Wall. Else Lord Bloodraven would never have been forced to become the last greenseer. Some wildling could have done that job.

And we should also keep in mind that the First Men once had a religion of their own, before they adapted the faith of the Children in the wake of the Pact. It seems that Garth the Green and the Green Men in his wake might include aspects of the original First Men beliefs.

On 14.1.2017 at 3:22 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

George knows about a buttload of things. Yes, that is an actual measurement.

You are telling us that George knows all about Zoroastrianism but he doesn't know about Norse mythology??? You do know George has said he uses Zoroastrianism as inspiration, right?

I'm just saying that George potentially knowing stuff doesn't mean that he included everything he knows about that field into his story when that's not apparent in the text. And even if he included parts of his knowledge then we cannot jump from those parts to the full picture.

The fact that the Church of Starry Wisdom features in the story doesn't mean Nyarlathotep is going to show up as a character in the story.

On 14.1.2017 at 3:22 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

"The maesters say greyscale is not—"

"The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean!"

That of all things isn't a very good evidence. Val has no clue about the knowledge of the maesters, she has spent her entire life beyond the Wall where life is much worse than in the civilized parts of Westeros.

I actually believe that she is right that those woods witches cannot heal greyscale beyond the Wall. But that doesn't mean that other people have to have the same shortcomings. Some witch doctor in our world is not going to heal syphilis. Penicillin is.

I also believe Shireen's greyscale will resurface at one point in the future but my explanation if more complex. We know that children are likely to catch greyscale in cold and damp places. Castle Black, the Nightfort, and Braavos (where Shireen could actually travel with her mother and Justin Massey) all seem to be reasonably cold and damp places. But usually that doesn't happen south of the Wall or else the maesters would also know about that. After all, Shireen certainly isn't the only child whose greyscale stopped. There must have been many more such for the maesters to reach the conclusion that it is not necessarily lethal in children.

On 14.1.2017 at 3:22 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Mance treats Dalla very well. He says nice things to her, asks her to be treated nicely "like you would any queen", and when Dalla interrupts Mance to explain battle, Mance's response is that he found, "a wise woman."

Well, she seems to be pretty wise from what little we learned about her. That doesn't mean that there many other 'wise women' as a special job description north of the Wall, though.

On 14.1.2017 at 3:22 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Again, you seem to forget the concept of stealing is NOT about the word, but about the fact that it is a marriage practice, and while not like that south of the wall, it is a two-way street that involves both parties and even families.

Then Mance could have used the word 'steal' to describe his relationship with Dalla, could he not? But he doesn't. I never doubted that 'stealing' was 'a marriage practice'. Just a not very good one. Most forced marriages are pretty bad ones. And the stealing part clearly also allows for men to abduct women against their will. We have this confirmed for the women that are abducted from all those Northern villages. 

On 14.1.2017 at 3:22 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

You keep willfully ignoring this point even though a major point of Jon going and living with Free Folk was to learn about them and how they are NOT the boogeymen they are made out to be. They are just like those south of the wall. That is the point.

They are not exactly like those south of the Wall. Just as the Ironborn and the Dothraki aren't the same as the average Westerosi. They are also human (but I never doubted that) but they have culture that's based on raiding and stealing from other people. A guy like Jarl is a great guy because he is an experienced raider. Nobody in the North is seen as a great guy because he climbs across the Wall and kicks some wildling ass. That's a pretty big difference if you ask me.

On 14.1.2017 at 8:11 PM, bemused said:

I think w-a-a-a-y too much importance is given to blood sacrifice ,or it's necessity. There was no evidence of the CoTF practicing it, until the release of the World book, and that was given by a maester long, long after the fact. It might be propoganda, or it might be true..it was supposedly done in a very dire situation, by CoTF and First Men.

Nope, there is no hint that the people at Winterfell were in a 'dire situation' when that woman cut that poor guy's throat with that bronze sickle. It could have been an everyday event in that particular point of Westerosi history.

And the fact that Bran can actually taste the blood touching the weirwood's roots is a strong element of foreshadowing that this is going to be important. It was Bran's cliffhanger in his last chapter, after all. Blood sacrifices to weirwood trees might be important ways for greenseers to get stronger and work all the magics they can.

I hope you don't think the people will get off the hook of the Others all that easily. By the end of TWoW we might see the reintroduction of blood sacrifices to the heart trees in the North as a means to ensure the survival of mankind. 

On 14.1.2017 at 8:11 PM, bemused said:

My feeling is that the idea of blood sacrifice was probably brought to Westeros by the First Men, connected to whatever religion they practiced at the time, and it was so ingrained that they clung to it even as they adopted the religion of the CoTF.(Of course blood magic works because magic exists, not because some actual god craves it.)

The Children certainly wouldn't have sacrificed their own children just because the First Men also might have practiced blood sacrifices. They would have done so because blood sacrifices might be a vital part of very strong spells. There is a reason why the Children later could no longer to the potent spells they were known for in the early days (like the Breaking).

On 14.1.2017 at 8:11 PM, bemused said:

I think if the CoTF used blood magic, it had more to do with feeding the blood of the tree to men, than the other way around (See Bran ...and Bugger Jojen-paste ! :angry: ..pardon me...)

Sure, but that's just part of Bran connecting with/becoming a tree. The idea that weirwoods themselves are 'clean magic' is, most likely, an error.

On 14.1.2017 at 8:11 PM, bemused said:

I hope you're not suggesting that every vision or prophecy required a blood sacrifice.

Sure I don't. Why would I? There is no reason to believe that.

On 14.1.2017 at 8:11 PM, bemused said:

The examples of Maggy the Frog and the Ghost of High Heart tasting a drop (and only a drop) of a person's blood in order to foresee their specific future is quite another thing.

Sure. And blood isn't even necessary all that often to get a glimpse of the future. Prophetic dreams don't need blood magic at all.

On 14.1.2017 at 8:11 PM, bemused said:

George purposely clouds the issue by making Mother Mole a somewhat comical figure..and old woman who lives in a hollow under a tree.. OH.. perhaps in emulation of the CoTF ? .. and I would not brush off her power or authority when thousands were willing to follow her on a hazardous journey to a place of dire repute on the strength of her vision.... why didn't they search for Tormund or the Weeper instead ?

Because they wanted to get south of the Wall/away from the Others as quickly as possible and they are stupid and ignorant people who grasp at any hope they can get? And Mother Mole actually was right. Ships came and the slavers took some of them with them. She had genuine prophetic skills.

On 14.1.2017 at 8:11 PM, bemused said:

I've pointed out that in the Norse model, the clan leader is the priest , but men could participate in some of the women's rituals. For some rituals, though, it was considered unmanly (playing a female role)... A ritual was often believed to be more powerful if other women who knew the ritual joined in with the Völva. Visions were sought through singing or sitting out alone at night. (Think of Val "singing to herself" or when seen alone on the roof of a tower at night)

Sure, hedge wizards exist.. but it's never mentioned that they are given to prophesy ... http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hedge_wizard ...

"A hedge wizard is a Westerosi local or traveling herb-doctor who also likely uses traditional healing, spells and charms to heal the sick or help the needy.

Like hedge knights they are probably quite poor and sleep in hedges on occasion. They are probably most popular amongst the smallfolk as they are likely to be more affordable and accessible. Nobles probably do not employ the services of hedge wizards or if they do so they do it clandestinely." 

 

Can you point me to any of the literature you get your knowledge about the Norse beliefs from? Or point we to some of the primary sources on all that?

I'm scratching my head right now - there is no hint that Val is prophetess, right? Some woods witches might have genuine magical skills like prophecy, healing, etc. but not all of them. We also know that some septons (like Septon Murmison and the Elder Brother of Quiet Isle) have healing hands but not all of them do as Catelyn makes clear as early as AGoT. Some Red Priests have powerful magical skills like Mel or Moqorro, but Thoros certainly doesn't.

On 14.1.2017 at 8:59 PM, bemused said:

It's George's plot and he's developing it at his preferred rate.. I can't help that it makes no sense to you..It's making sense to me.

That's not the point. The point is that George usually has a reason to keep things a secret. There is a reason why we don't know anything about the Others at this point. In other cases we get hints at the truth, etc. but with this whole secret wildlings people there are no good hints.

On 14.1.2017 at 8:59 PM, bemused said:

We've been shown over and over that these women exist at one level,and have been given good hints that they exist at a more elite level. Even you are willing to believe it might be true of Dalla...  

I'm saying Dalla might be a wise woman/sorceress. But I'm not willing to say that there is an entire order of people hiding in plain sight. The free folk is way to individualistic for that kind of thing. There were skinchanger gatherings, not meetings of some secret society.

On 14.1.2017 at 8:59 PM, bemused said:

Jon was with them for a relatively short time and probably did see them (he certainly saw Val and Dalla).. but unless they're doing ritual, they dress like anyone else.. They were on the march south... Mance already had his plan.. any decisions that might have required seeking a vision were already made .. and as you point out.. they were fleeing ..therefore, not stopping to take any more time than was necessary.. and then Jon split off on his mission with Jarl ..

Still, they would have talked about that, no? Why not.

On 14.1.2017 at 8:59 PM, bemused said:

The Ygritte stuff doesn't warrant a response and neither does the Varamyr stuff earlier...

I never denied that Val could be Dalla's blood sister (and her acolyte as well) I just like to point out that she may not be.. it could be a deliberate move on George's part to disguise Val's true nature until he's ready to reveal it... She's called a wildling princess because she's Dalla's sister.. Well, we know at least half of that's wrong. For all we know, the other half is too.. it won't matter much to the eventual plot, but might be helping George to keep a secret in the meantime. I think she's probably a specific type of  Völva, a  spækona - a seer (she first wants a midwife when Dalla is giving birth and later refers Jon to a woods witch about Greyscale .. in other words, in matters of healing)

Still, I don't even see a reason to entertain the possibility that Val is not Dalla's sister. Why should I do that? Whatever Val's true purpose in your view might be there is no reason to believe that being Dalla's sister would not fit with that. 

The fact is that any person as close as Val was to Mance and his inner circle (due to the fact that she was Dalla's sister) would have enabled her to do that. And any other chieftain of Mance's inner circle could also have contacted Tormund (Harma, Varamyr, etc.).

The assumption that Val has to be super special to do what she does is essentially an overly complicated explanation. If George wanted to make her super special he would have actually made her mission super special and made it a huge miracle that she succeeded at the task.

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Lord Varys you are grasping  at some major straws here, all while cherry picking what George says in the books and interviews. 

So you think Nyarlathotep is going to show up in the story? That would be great, actually.

Even if we go with Val's wardrobe and behavior being reminiscent of some real/alleged/imagined Norse priestesses (I'm really interested in the sources for all this) then this could just be a nod to such things, just as Jarl's name is obviously such a nod (George might have ripped off that one for Tolkien were the name 'Eorl' is essentially the same thing). But that doesn't mean that such priestesses have to exist in the story.

I could also search for some lines supporting the idea that some septons in the story are actually the Westerosi equivalent of bishops. After all, the Faith is loosely based on the Catholic Church and we have a Pope, the college of Cardinals in the Most Devout, so there should also be bishops out there, right?

No, there is no reason to assume any of this.

I'm actually with you that Val is going to play a reasonably important role in the story as the tertiary character that she is. But she is not 'Jon Snow's true queen'. Not by a long shot.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So you think Nyarlathotep is going to show up in the story? That would be great, actually.

Did you watch the whole section in that video where George talks about taking these aspects and making them his own? Everyone here is giving plenty of backup text and sources to make our point, and you keep shooting it down because you hate anything to do with Jon and the North succeeding in anyway.

Like I mentioned before, your strength in knowledge is elsewhere in the story because you prefer that side of the story. That is fine since after a while we all tend to gravitate to whatever dark corner interests us the most.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if we go with Val's wardrobe and behavior being reminiscent of some real/alleged/imagined Norse priestesses (I'm really interested in the sources for all this) then this could just be a nod to such things, just as Jarl's name is obviously such a nod (George might have ripped off that one for Tolkien were the name 'Eorl' is essentially the same thing). But that doesn't mean that such priestesses have to exist in the story.

Yes, there are sources to all of these you mentioned and I have detailed them and linked to them in that really long write up of mine that I have been working on.

George simply using a "nod to" happens in the books, like Ser Patrek is a nod to is friend to whom he lost a bet. There is a nod to the Three Stooges. There is a nod to Kermit and Elmo and some Harry Potter stuff. Those are nods. A one and done that gives the reader a tiny chuckle. A nod is not the bulk of imagery and symbolism repeatedly being used by many, many characters through the entire story. That is direct and consistent inspiration.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I could also search for some lines supporting the idea that some septons in the story are actually the Westerosi equivalent of bishops. After all, the Faith is loosely based on the Catholic Church and we have a Pope, the college of Cardinals in the Most Devout, so there should also be bishops out there, right?

Yup, and you would be correct in doing so because George says it is there. You just already started to break it down. Keep going.

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, there is no reason to assume any of this.

True, it's not like George himself has said it is there and why.

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm actually with you that Val is going to play a reasonably important role in the story as the tertiary character that she is. But she is not 'Jon Snow's true queen'. Not by a long shot.

We will see. I mean, the fact that George has given her so much already is clearly a waste of page space. Damn those editors!!!

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@Lord Varys My books are mostly still packed away after 2 moves in a year and a half and are mostly literary collections of the myths, etc..But wikipedia gives an excellent rundown (with sources) for our purposes.

The Vala ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Völva

Prose Edda and Codex Regius...  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Regius

I don't have time to reply in depth right now, I'll have to come back later. But George didn't say he based the old gods on the Norse personified gods (e.g.no godly stand-in for Thor or Freya, though there are plenty of other references) .. but based the religion - which has a slightly different connotation, for me ... The religion of the Seven is founded in Catholicism. We can see the similarities and the differences.

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17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope, there is no hint that the people at Winterfell were in a 'dire situation' when that woman cut that poor guy's throat with that bronze sickle. It could have been an everyday event in that particular point of Westerosi history.

Obviously , people did practice blood sacrifice. I'm just not at all sure that the CoTF did, until men imported the idea with them and then, the CoTF may have resorted to it no more than once (at the breaking) - that's if the maester who recorded it centuries later had it right, and wasn't reporting superstition, or surmise on the part of men.
Unless we're shown that they did, or hear it from an unimpeachable source, I'll continue to harbour strong doubts.

Having been cut off from the rest of Westeros by the wall for 8000 yrs., or whatever number.. (coincidentally, in the same area the CoTF withdrew to) the FF probably grew closer to the CoTF beliefs and practices than Westerosi northerners.. We see some beliefs/ traditions are the same, others not. 

There's no one clue that proves that Val is a priestess/seer and nothing that states point blank that she and Jon will be/are together But when so many subtle ones turn up, all pointing in one direction, I think they should be heeded.

 This will mean nothing to you, I'm sure, since you're unwilling to accept any hint of these clues about Val, but I think there have been more that enough to cast her in some version of the position we've outlined. In Tormund's camp Val is dressed in wildling finery, impractical for everyday activity, wearing a weirwood face pin. We know from the Norse writings that Vala did wear special garments for ritual. Though Val wears a bone knife on her hip, she tells Jon she wouldn't want to get blood on the clothes Dalla gave her...

But there's no use quibbling. I'm convinced and you're not, and we obviously won't change each other's minds.

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15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Did you watch the whole section in that video where George talks about taking these aspects and making them his own? Everyone here is giving plenty of backup text and sources to make our point, and you keep shooting it down because you hate anything to do with Jon and the North succeeding in anyway.

That is not true. On this 'I want the heroes/wronged people get their revenge' level I want the Freys dead as much as anybody else. I want the Boltons gone, and I want the Starks return to Winterfell. I want Bran to be whole again and return to Winterfell in triumph. And I sure as hell never wanted Robb and Catelyn to die. Nor did I want Theon to betray the Starks and to succeed in taking Winterfell away from them.

However, I think Bran has a different story now, and I find it much more interesting for him to become a tree man and an 'old god' than him playing the mundane game of politics, becoming a lord or a king in the end. And the same goes, perhaps to a lesser degree, for Jon Snow, too (Bran has seen the Heart of Winter but Jon has made the war against the Others his own). I think it not unlikely that he is Frodo of this story, the guy who is going to offer his happiness, future, and (perhaps) sanity to save mankind. He certainly is the character closest to the 'classical fantasy hero' type. If he lives, he is going to get the girl of this story, Daenerys, not a featured extra like Val.

But then, George really tries to spin this series in a pretty dark way. It is not supposed to be easy. That's why I think there is a pretty good chance that Jon is going to die in the story (and Dany and Tyrion, too, although most likely not all of them). I mean, especially in Tyrion's we should all expect him to be punished for the murder of Shae. That was a horrible deed, and just as the Freys are not going to live and thrive in this story, just as Theon is not going to live happily after after what he did to those innocent boys (and the folk at Winterfell) I expect there to be some justice for Shae (and possibly even Tywin).

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Like I mentioned before, your strength in knowledge is elsewhere in the story because you prefer that side of the story. That is fine since after a while we all tend to gravitate to whatever dark corner interests us the most.

Sure, I have certain interests and freely admit that I actually care more about a lot of irrelevant stuff than how the series turns out in the end. Discussing and speculating about details is what's fun, not so much how things turn out in the end. And there are many intriguing possibilities how things could turn, not just the one version of events George is going to decide to go with. Just look at all the possible ways things could go down in KL right now. Who is going to find Kevan's body? Who is going to inform that person first? What are Mace and Cersei going to do when they are told what has transpired? 

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes, there are sources to all of these you mentioned and I have detailed them and linked to them in that really long write up of mine that I have been working on.

George simply using a "nod to" happens in the books, like Ser Patrek is a nod to is friend to whom he lost a bet. There is a nod to the Three Stooges. There is a nod to Kermit and Elmo and some Harry Potter stuff. Those are nods. A one and done that gives the reader a tiny chuckle. A nod is not the bulk of imagery and symbolism repeatedly being used by many, many characters through the entire story. That is direct and consistent inspiration.

Even if I'd agree to that, this still doesn't mean that your conclusions what those hints and inspirations mean. I'm skeptical because I think we should only make theories when things fit in with all the evidence. There is no good reason why George shouldn't have given us at least one explicit hint that Val is a priestess/seer/sorceress of power. Say, somebody showing that he or she is afraid of Val for no obvious/apparent good reason, or somebody observing Val doing some ritual or greeting her in some special way. He pretty much introduced Mel as such a sorceress, why not Val, too? We certainly wouldn't be surprised if Val turned out to have magical powers nor is there any reason to keep magical abilities a secret in a world full of magical things.

In fact, George could easily enough made the free folk society pretty much based on this Norse religion thing in much more open fashion. There could have been these priestesses running around in the open for everybody to see. It could have been stuff George could have introduced us to when the wildlings first came up in AGoT (and we got a glimpse of them then and there with Osha at Winterfell).

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yup, and you would be correct in doing so because George says it is there. You just already started to break it down. Keep going.

True, it's not like George himself has said it is there and why.

Well, Ran actually asked George once whether the equivalent to the arch-bishop of Sunspear offered the Faith Militant orders asylum in Dorne in the wake of Maegor's laws against them. George then made it clear that no such equivalent existed. The Faith only has the High Septon, the Most Devout, and the common septons and septas (although I think there are hints that we can assume the various orders of Faith might have a head who is running them as an organization, just as the the many septries that exist across the lands would have the equivalent of an abbot/abbess - we sort of got that confirmed for the Quiet Isle where the Elder Brother is running the show).

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

We will see. I mean, the fact that George has given her so much already is clearly a waste of page space. Damn those editors!!!

Compared to a lot of characters Val hasn't gotten that much space. And a lot characters who got even more space than her eventually died. Keep in mind that I was never opposed to the idea that Val and Jon might have an affair. I just don't think they are destined to stay together if they begin such an affair. But Jon's love life definitely got very complicated with his assassination. That sexual tension between him and Val is there in ADwD but is that going to survive the assassination/resurrection and the aftermath? We don't know that. Considering that it there is much more foreshadowing (and other evidence) that Melisandre is going to play a crucial role in Jon's return from the dead and that there are hints that there is also sexual tension between Jon and Mel (going back to Jon's very first ADwD chapter) I'm actually more inclined that Jon Snow might enter into a relationship with Melisandre upon his return. She has a lot to offer, much more than Val ever can hope to offer him.

15 hours ago, bemused said:

@Lord Varys My books are mostly still packed away after 2 moves in a year and a half and are mostly literary collections of the myths, etc..But wikipedia gives an excellent rundown (with sources) for our purposes.

The Vala ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Völva

Prose Edda and Codex Regius...  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Regius

Oh, well, thinking about this kind of thing if Val or Dalla were women of that type, I'd expect that to have been made explicit. Why not introduce Dalla as some kind of priestess having secret knowledge pushing Mance to seek shelter south of the Wall because she foresaw that they would all die? She certainly could have played a role in his decision to do this but George could have made that much more explicit.

15 hours ago, bemused said:

I don't have time to reply in depth right now, I'll have to come back later. But George didn't say he based the old gods on the Norse personified gods (e.g.no godly stand-in for Thor or Freya, though there are plenty of other references) .. but based the religion - which has a slightly different connotation, for me ... The religion of the Seven is founded in Catholicism. We can see the similarities and the differences.

Sure, but I think especially the religion/beliefs of the Children/First Men are going to turn out to be much more George's own creation than being derived from some real world religion. The Children and the Others and the distant past of Westeros when the First Men warred with the Children and made the Pact are at the very heart of this conflict. That's the heart of George's story, the biggest mystery, and we can be reasonably sure that most of that are going to be his very own ideas.

The Faith certainly isn't going to be as important, and neither is R'hllorism or the Ironborn religion. The secret how to defeat the Others lies with the old gods and the Children. The Valyrian bloodline might provide mankind with the necessary/crucial tools to win the victory but the knowledge is going to come from the greenseers.

6 hours ago, bemused said:

Obviously , people did practice blood sacrifice. I'm just not at all sure that the CoTF did, until men imported the idea with them and then, the CoTF may have resorted to it no more than once (at the breaking) - that's if the maester who recorded it centuries later had it right, and wasn't reporting superstition, or surmise on the part of men.
Unless we're shown that they did, or hear it from an unimpeachable source, I'll continue to harbour strong doubts.

And you base those doubts on what exactly? On your gut feeling or your personal preference? That's not a good argument. I'm with you that we can technically not prove that the talks about the Children practicing blood sacrifices is genuine good information. But we know for a fact that the First Men at Winterfell sacrificed people to the heart tree there. And we know that the First Men adopted the beliefs of the Children after the Pact. We have no reason to believe that Children ever adopted any practices or customs of the First Men nor do we have any good information that the First Men practiced blood sacrifice before they adopted beliefs from the Children (after all, the only good evidence we have for this is Bran's vision).

The darker stories about Garth the Green indicate that the ancient First Men might have practiced blood sacrifices but those stories are about as believable as the stories about the Children sacrificing their own children to cause the Breaking.

You cannot pick and choose there. Or rather, you have to methodically pick and choose. Yandel is biased against magic, and we know many instances where our knowledge on what kind of magic works is better than his. When he then at times cites instances about certain groups or people doing magics/dark magical rituals then we should most likely be open to those stories. More often than not Septon Barth is the guy he cites there only to then discredit him by citing another more expert source but we as reader know who is most likely correct on the matter.

6 hours ago, bemused said:

Having been cut off from the rest of Westeros by the wall for 8000 yrs., or whatever number.. (coincidentally, in the same area the CoTF withdrew to) the FF probably grew closer to the CoTF beliefs and practices than Westerosi northerners.. We see some beliefs/ traditions are the same, others not. 

Technically this is most likely true. Yet even the wildlings don't seem to interact with the Children a lot or at all. Mance is a former watchman yet there is no hint whatsoever that he ever met or talked to Bloodraven. If the free folk had connections with the Children longer than the Northmen then this is now a thing of the past, too. Although not necessarily for as long a time as it is with the Starks. Who basically are nearly as bad as many of the Southrons in this regard. In fact, it might turn out that the Children are still a stronger force in the Neck, the Riverlands, and the Stormlands than the North. Are those caves truly empty Arianne found in Arianne 2? What does it mean that the Ghost of High Heart lives at High Heart of all places? Is there still a colony of Children in the Neck? And of course - the Gods Eye and the Isle of Faces is in the Riverlands.

6 hours ago, bemused said:

There's no one clue that proves that Val is a priestess/seer and nothing that states point blank that she and Jon will be/are together But when so many subtle ones turn up, all pointing in one direction, I think they should be heeded.

Well, honestly, I think I could make a pretty convincing case that Dany and Brown Ben are going to get together. After all, they are distant cousins, and the dragons liking somebody clearly is a way of the author to indicate that Dany is sexually attracted to men.

Not all such clues mean what they could mean, and even if they mean what you think they mean it might never be realized.

6 hours ago, bemused said:

This will mean nothing to you, I'm sure, since you're unwilling to accept any hint of these clues about Val, but I think there have been more that enough to cast her in some version of the position we've outlined. In Tormund's camp Val is dressed in wildling finery, impractical for everyday activity, wearing a weirwood face pin. We know from the Norse writings that Vala did wear special garments for ritual. Though Val wears a bone knife on her hip, she tells Jon she wouldn't want to get blood on the clothes Dalla gave her...

Well, I'm sorry. I reread that chapter right now. Val is wearing white, and there is nothing impractical nor is this necessarily 'wildling finery'. It seems to be a pretty good set of clothes. The connection that's missing there is that Val did some ritual in that chapter. In fact, she had not even a part in Tormund's negotiations with Jon. Why is that, if she is important?

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I don't think that there is a point to discuss with @Lord Varys at this point.  He obviously doesn't see it and more importantly isn't willing to consider it as a possibility. So instead  of going totally off topic and derail the thread maybe it’s better to  stop doing that and staying on topic on what it is in the books, what are the historical parallels and so on. So please let’s keep it on topic. Thank you.

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On July 10, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Anyway, the last thing I would want for Jon is for him - after everything he has faced to date - to have to deal with being married to as vain and self absorbed an individual as Daenerys Targaryen.

i 100% agree with you.

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