Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Since there is much talk about my all time favourite ship and the other (1 & 2) were archived here is a new one.

So far I have 

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Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold.

 

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Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. They look as though they belong together.

 

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You have my word, Lord Snow. I will be a proper wildling princess for your queen.

 

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"He may not heed your words, but he will hear them." Val kissed him lightly on the cheek. "You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope."
 
Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air. Jon Snow drew back and said, "The only thanks I want is—"
 
"—Tormund Giantsbane. Aye." Val pulled up the hood of her bearskin. The brown pelt was well salted with grey. "Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?"

 

Special thanks @The Fattest Leech for the last quote.

 

What do you think? What do you believe that I have forgotten?

[BalerionTheCat]

Would you consider that: Jon admitting to Stannis he captured Val:

Jon was saddened by that still. "Val is her sister. She and the babe did not require much capturing, Your Grace.

And later, still in ASoS:

Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I’m sorry, he thought. I’m not the man to steal you out of there.

I believe Jon thinks Val is waiting for him to steal her.

[Lord Varys]

They may have some sex. If fire wight Jon still can perform. But I doubt that Val is going to survive the series.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They may have some sex. If fire wight Jon still can perform. But I doubt that Val is going to survive the series.

Why are you so set on disparaging any independent storyline for Jon? It's like anything of significance in his lifestory that does not either derive from Dany or lead to Dany, must be treated with disdain. Or otherwise diminished. 

"If firewight Jon can still perform."

Come on Lord Varys. Do you so despise Jon's character arc that you must make every post drip with derision?

[Chib]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They may have some sex. If fire wight Jon still can perform. But I doubt that Val is going to survive the series.

I think the same... lol

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They may have some sex. If fire wight Jon still can perform. But I doubt that Val is going to survive the series.

You seem to know what will happen without any doubt. GRRM is that you?

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Would you consider that: Jon admitting to Stannis he captured Val:

Jon was saddened by that still. "Val is her sister. She and the babe did not require much capturing, Your Grace.

And later, still in ASoS:

Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I’m sorry, he thought. I’m not the man to steal you out of there.

I believe Jon thinks Val is waiting for him to steal her.

Which he was done one way or another. He stole her and had a giant to guard her.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You seem to know what will happen without any doubt. GRRM is that you?

Val isn't a very elaborated character. Nor one living in an environment that makes it likely she is not going to face some severe dangers. Considering that a lot of people should die to create more tension I'm operating under the assumption that it is not very likely that she'll live through the series. Especially considering that she seems to be a brave person. She is not going to run and hide in the face of an attack.

The idea to take some tertiary character and assume he or she will make it to the end of the series isn't something I'd do. One could go back and make a similar case for Ygritte as Jon's 'true queen' in the chapters she was still alive.

54 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Why are you so set on disparaging any independent storyline for Jon? It's like anything of significance in his lifestory that does not either derive from Dany or lead to Dany, must be treated with disdain. Or otherwise diminished. 

"If firewight Jon can still perform."

Come on Lord Varys. Do you so despise Jon's character arc that you must make every post drip with derision?

Not really, but I think people who die and come back to life should better have to pay for that. If Jon hadn't been killed I'd have been fine with him and Val having sex.

I mean, this isn't a superhero comic book series, and Jon Snow isn't Doomsday who comes back stronger each time he is killed.

Although I find this whole romanticism around the stealing thing detestable. This is an abhorrent custom and shouldn't be interpreted as if it was a good thing. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Val isn't a very elaborated character. Nor one living in an environment that makes it likely she is not going to face some severe dangers. Considering that a lot of people should die to create more tension I'm operating under the assumption that it is not very likely that she'll live through the series. Especially considering that she seems to be a brave person. She is not going to run and hide in the face of an attack.

The idea to take some tertiary character and assume he or she will make it to the end of the series isn't something I'd do. One could go back and make a similar case for Ygritte as Jon's 'true queen' in the chapters she was still alive.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. The way you say your opinion it seems like you know what will happen for sure.

I mean, this isn't a superhero comic book series, and Jon Snow isn't Doomsday who comes back stronger each time he is killed.

But Dany somehow is a superhero and Jon is the problem?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Regarding the topic of this thread. I don't know if Jon and Val will end up together. I would certainly prefer her as his bride to any other woman in the series. But I don't know if that is where Martin is going.

I do wonder at her purpose otherwise, however. She seems a superfluous character, almost out of place amongst the otherwise plain, badly groomed and primitive looking wildlings. She seems almost a goddess amongst them. It seems she must be destined for something more than just some background filler.

Anyway, the last thing I would want for Jon is for him - after everything he has faced to date - to have to deal with being married to as vain and self absorbed an individual as Daenerys Targaryen.

[BalerionTheCat]

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Val isn't a very elaborated character. Nor one living in an environment that makes it likely she is not going to face some severe dangers. Considering that a lot of people should die to create more tension I'm operating under the assumption that it is not very likely that she'll live through the series. Especially considering that she seems to be a brave person. She is not going to run and hide in the face of an attack.

Davos is like that. Every lord wants him dead, because he is a former smuggler or an up jumped lord. He is in a team used to burn people. Melisandre wanted him dead. Even Stannis sentenced him to death once. But he is still there. And now he is sent to a cannibal island. Ned, Robb, Tywin, Joffrey, Renly are all dead. They died at a time their lives seemed safe.

[DigUpHerBones]

per Wildling tradition, Val is already Jon's IMO. At least in her eyes. 

He "killed" Jarl and took Val south of The Wall. 

But is she really a Wilding?

How many "living" characters have gone North of the Wall, only to have their eye color change once they get back south?

The fact that she has that differentiation makes her special, despite lack of text thus far.

But just like Euron since Danny's visions in House of Undying (8 arms sailing on a sea of blood, being her biggest threat), there is something to this character that has yet to be reveled.

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

24 minutes ago, DigUpHerBones said:

But is she really a Wilding?

She may be half Free Folk half Umber.

24 minutes ago, DigUpHerBones said:

How many "living" characters have gone North of the Wall, only to have their eye color change once they get back south?

GRRM had made mistakes before and even if they are not mistakes the light can make the eyes look with different color.

24 minutes ago, DigUpHerBones said:

The fact that she has that differentiation makes her special, despite lack of text thus far.

True. She most likely is one of Jon's Intermediaries to the Old Gods.

27 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Davos is like that. Every lord wants him dead, because he is a former smuggler or an up jumped lord. He is in a team used to burn people. Melisandre wanted him dead. Even Stannis sentenced him to death once. But he is still there. And now he is sent to a cannibal island. Ned, Robb, Tywin, Joffrey, Renly are all dead. They died at a time their lives seemed safe.

Well said.

[StarkofWinterfell]

Val is Rhaegar: Confirmed.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Val is Rhaegar: Confirmed.

Wut?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. The way you say your opinion it seems like you know what will happen for sure.

I don't see all that much use to specifically mark my opinion. It is pretty evident when I state it, I think. Nobody knows for sure how things are going to turn out, after all.

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

But Dany somehow is a superhero and Jon is the problem?

Who said anything that? This has nothing to do with Dany. I just think that any main character pairing occurring now is going to be doomed. Sansa is not going to live happily ever after with either Harry or Littlefinger just as Daario isn't going to be Dany's 'true king'.

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Davos is like that. Every lord wants him dead, because he is a former smuggler or an up jumped lord. He is in a team used to burn people. Melisandre wanted him dead. Even Stannis sentenced him to death once. But he is still there. And now he is sent to a cannibal island. Ned, Robb, Tywin, Joffrey, Renly are all dead. They died at a time their lives seemed safe.

First this is not true. Nobody wants Davos dead or else he would be dead by now. Second Davos is a POV chapter introduced in the second book and thus a much more important character than Val.

Finally the whole point is not hitting home. We are talking about characters that are in places and situations where things might get very ugly pretty soon. I'm not holding my breath that Alliser Thorne, Bowen Marsh, Leathers, Iron Emmett, Dolorous Edd, Selyse, Shireen, Ser Axell, Cotter Pyke, Denys Mallister, Clydas, Sweet Donnel Hill, or Satin make it through the novels - some of them will die.

But this doesn't cause me to go to great lengths imagining scenarios how Satin and Jon could make out or how he and Axell Florent could become best buddies. A lot of things are possible - but that doesn't mean they are very likely.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 7/10/2016 at 9:35 AM, Lord Varys said:

1. Val isn't a very elaborated character. Nor one living in an environment that makes it likely she is not going to face some severe dangers. Considering that a lot of people should die to create more tension I'm operating under the assumption that it is not very likely that she'll live through the series. Especially considering that she seems to be a brave person. She is not going to run and hide in the face of an attack.

The idea to take some tertiary character and assume he or she will make it to the end of the series isn't something I'd do. One could go back and 2. make a similar case for Ygritte as Jon's 'true queen' in the chapters she was still alive.

3. Not really, but I think people who die and come back to life should better have to pay for that. If Jon hadn't been killed I'd have been fine with him and Val having sex.

I mean, this isn't a superhero comic book series, and Jon Snow isn't Doomsday who comes back stronger each time he is killed.

4. Although I find this whole romanticism around the stealing thing detestable. This is an abhorrent custom and shouldn't be interpreted as if it was a good thing. 

1. Val isn't as elaborated as say, Tormund, because we are only now being introduced to her in the second act. George planned for three acts and in each we will have new characters. Aurane Waters is a goods example of a second act character that is set up to die. He seems disinterested in any real actions of the council expect to get what he wants and then to exit stage left all for his action to happen off-screen while the reader knows plenty of naval battles are in the works at the same time. Dude is dead. Aurane has limited dialogue and limited main character interactions. He is mostly talked about, not to. Val is not only talked to by Jon, but also Stannis, Selyse, Tormund, etc, and she is given a huge task and comes through on it. And, she is given a title by the southron people as they seem to want to raise her up to their levels, even though Jon keeps telling them that is not how it works.
   • Editing to say that after doing some research on Val, she has a moat load of symbolism that is there on page. I put it together in this thread here about Jon and Val and a historical return.
2. I see posters make this claim a lot and when I ask them to actually show some believable comparisons, they never, ever do. Every main character has a first love that is there to teach them some sort of lesson. Cersei even has one in Rhaegar and Dany had Drogo. There is no puppy-love in ASOIAF that is true and lasting. Ygritte was for duty, Val is for love. Drogo was for duty, Daario (?) is for love. Tyrion is for duty, Sandor (?) is for love.
3. They should, I fully agree. And we have seen that a lot so far, so to have one that is different would be unexpected. LSH was brought back by the old gods for revenge when guest rights were broken. LSH and Jon are not the same. Plus, it is entirely plausible that Jon was not mortally wounded... which then it will be real handy to have people like Val and Morna around.
4. Your reaction to the idea of stealing is just exactly how it was set up to be... detestable. That is why the southron people are soooo afraid of the wildings. They might "steal" their girls. Well, just like "dance" means to fight, "steal" means to marry. But the southron people only think if it in the basic term. It is a translation non-communication issue. Sure, the wildling men do get a little physical, but for the most part the women are also expected to fight back and it is ultimately up to the women to decide if they accept the man as husband or not and the women's family can also intervene. And who is to say that Val wouldn't be the one to set a new precedent among the wildlings in their new homes that declares a change to this tradition.

[teej6]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Why are you so set on disparaging any independent storyline for Jon? It's like anything of significance in his lifestory that does not either derive from Dany or lead to Dany, must be treated with disdain. Or otherwise diminished. 

"If firewight Jon can still perform."

Come on Lord Varys. Do you so despise Jon's character arc that you must make every post drip with derision?

Yeah I've noticed the same. Most of Lord Varys posts relating to Jon are so one-sided and it's very obvious that LV wants Jon to fail or be less important so that Jon's character doesn't steal Dany's thunder. 

As to the OP, I feel that the Jon/Val romance is not happening. Stannis offer was the perfect opportunity for thisto haapen, but Jon rejected it. An in ADWD, Val also doesn't seem to show any romantic inclinations towards Jon even after being pushed in that direction by Tormund. I could be completely wrong and I must say Val would make a perfect match for Jon. 

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

"You have my word. I did not kill him." Though I might have if things had gone otherwise.

"This is farewell, then," she said, almost playfully.

 

in the previous chapter jon sees the Thief:

. Jon glimpsed the red wanderer above, watching them through the leafless branches of great trees as they made their way beneath. The Thief, the free folk called it. The best time to steal a woman was when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, Ygritte had always claimed.

 

and after releasing Val :

 

. "Thief," Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.

"Thief," the raven agreed.

 

 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Yeah I've noticed the same. Most of Lord Varys posts relating to Jon are so one-sided and it's very obvious that LV wants Jon to fail or be less important so that Jon's character doesn't steal Dany's thunder. 

As to the OP, I feel that the Jon/Val romance is not happening. Stannis offer was the perfect opportunity for thisto haapen, but Jon rejected it. An in ADWD, Val also doesn't seem to show any romantic inclinations towards Jon even after being pushed in that direction by Tormund. I could be completely wrong and I must say Val would make a perfect match for Jon. 

*Ygritte was there to teach Jon a lesson, he knows nothing, and Jon is still learning on some issues. Jon will get his graduation cap when he is "reborn", however that happens. The "you know nothing" is a major theme throughout Jon's arc. It is mentioned 13 times in Dance alone. Both Val and Tormund remind Jon of this.

And, I may be misreading your statement here, but it is not Tormund pushing Val to Jon, it is actually Tormund pushing Jon to Val... but Jon feels that he is not allowed because of his NW vows.

Well, we also learn, ever so subtley, that the Night's Watch kids forgets what its real purpose it. The NW used to be a noble cause and noble men were honored to volunteer for the Watch. Now it is mostly made up of thieves and rapers and men of ill repute... and Janos Slynt! ... so yeah, the NW mutiny because the wildlings came through is actually the symbolic happening of the wall falling because the men forgot the true purpose of the wall and killed the Lord Commander. The NW men know nothing!

A Storm of Swords - Samwell II

"We never knew . . ."

"We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don't build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men . . . and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him. Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?"

"The m-maesters think not," Sam stammered. "The maesters say it comes from the fires of the earth. They call it obsidian."

*Drogo was Dany's lesson, so there are those parallels.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

"You have my word. I did not kill him." Though I might have if things had gone otherwise.

"This is farewell, then," she said, almost playfully.

 

in the previous chapter jon sees the Thief:

. Jon glimpsed the red wanderer above, watching them through the leafless branches of great trees as they made their way beneath. The Thief, the free folk called it. The best time to steal a woman was when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, Ygritte had always claimed.

 

and after releasing Val :

 

. "Thief," Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.

"Thief," the raven agreed.

 

 

 

YES YES YES.... I have quoted those before and I thank you for quoting it now

Jon knows nothing and Val is prompting him to see, to realize what has happened, but it will take Jon killing the boy to let the man be born for it to happen.