Who Is The Most OVERRATED Battle Commander?

[fenr1s]

1 hour ago, Cragen said:

My main problem with Tywin Lannister in TWOFK is his strategy. He have good plan when it come to invading Riverlands, but when Robb come into play every Tywin move was wrong. He underestimated Robb at every turn and he was unable to predict his any move. He didn`t push Robb to make single move that bring him advantage. Robb start with 19,5k, He start war with 40k soldier, during war Tywin rise another hoste of 20k, Robb get Riverlands soldier, but not all of them, Tywin had great number advantage and he lose almost 2/3 of his army. He expected Robb to attack Harrenhall instead of Westerland, that is dumbest thing someone would do, everybody know that Harrenhall is impregnable and Robb to lay siege on Harrenhall would put himself between newly assembled army in Westerlands and whatever army is in Crowland. Nobady is so stupid to put himself in that position, even if Robb didn`t find secret passage it would be easier to attack Westerlands then to siege Harrenhal. This is best example of Tywin arrogance and his underestimation of Robb.

 

He didnt start the war with 40000 men and he didnt raise another 20000.

He started with around 35000 in two armies and then had another army of unknown size formed of remnants and new recruits. In total he maybe lost half of those troops and most of those losses didnt occur under his direct command.

He also pushed Robb to disastrously disperse his troops by starting a scorched earth campaign in the Riverlands.

Robbs incursion into the Westerlands was a big blunder. He never had the troops to threaten the important holdings like Lannisport or Casterlyrock and needlessly ceded the strategic initiative back to Tywin.

Instead Robb should have united his armies and positioned himself on the Kingsroad near Harrenhal. That way he would have cut of Tywin from Kingslanding and forced him to battle.

 

[Blackfish Tully]

7 minutes ago, fenr1s said:

Robbs incursion into the Westerlands was a big blunder. He never had the troops to threaten the important holdings like Lannisport or Casterlyrock and needlessly ceded the strategic initiative back to Tywin.

 

Actually Robb's attacking the Westerlands was probably the best move he could make at that time .  Allowing Tywin to raise another army in the Westerlands that he could join with the 4000 soldiers that are at the Golden Tooth would cause a lot of trouble for Robb . He could end up being trapped between Tywin's army and this army from the Westerlands. Not only did he get a chance to destroy this new army but he also cut off Tywin from any reinforcements and cut him off from the resources of the Westerlands. Tywin was fighting a war on multiple fronts against multiple enemies and not having the resources of the Westerlands was a huge blow for him. Robb destroys Tywin's new army and takes his gold mines and other resources and waits for the inevitable battle between Tywin and Renly , he keeps himself intact and allows his enemies to weaken themselves and then he can make his move depending on what happens between Tywin and Renly. Even Tywin admits that he is in a ton of trouble because of Robb's strategy and frankly is only saved because the shadowbaby killed Renly. 

 "Jaime has left us in a bad way. Roose Bolton and the remnants of his host are north of us. Our enemies hold the Twins and Moat Cailin. Robb Stark sits to the west, so we cannot retreat to Lannisport and the Rock unless we choose to give battle. Jaime is taken, and his army for all purposes has ceased to exist. Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion continue to plague our foraging parties. To our east we have the Arryns, Stannis Baratheon sits on Dragonstone, and in the south Highgarden and Storm's End are calling their banners."

Tyrion smiled crookedly. "Take heart, Father. At least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead."

[Cragen]

47 minutes ago, fenr1s said:

He didnt start the war with 40000 men and he didnt raise another 20000.

He started with around 35000 in two armies and then had another army of unknown size formed of remnants and new recruits. In total he maybe lost half of those troops and most of those losses didnt occur under his direct command.

He also pushed Robb to disastrously disperse his troops by starting a scorched earth campaign in the Riverlands.

Robbs incursion into the Westerlands was a big blunder. He never had the troops to threaten the important holdings like Lannisport or Casterlyrock and needlessly ceded the strategic initiative back to Tywin.

Instead Robb should have united his armies and positioned himself on the Kingsroad near Harrenhal. That way he would have cut of Tywin from Kingslanding and forced him to battle.

 

If Robbs incursion into the Westerlands was big blunder, then why Tywin tried to fallow him into Westerland?

[fenr1s]

12 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Actually Robb's attacking the Westerlands was probably the best move he could make at that time .  Allowing Tywin to raise another army in the Westerlands that he could join with the 4000 soldiers that are at the Golden Tooth would cause a lot of trouble for Robb . He could end up being trapped between Tywin's army and this army from the Westerlands.

That army was in a bad shape under an incompetent leader and would have had to get past Riverrun first. Edmure could have comfortably defended the crossing with a few thousand men.

12 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Not only did he get a chance to destroy this new army but he also cut off Tywin from any reinforcements and cut him off from the resources of the Westerlands. Tywin was fighting a war on multiple fronts against multiple enemies and not having the resources of the Westerlands was a huge blow for him. Robb destroys Tywin's new army and takes his gold mines and other resources and waits for the inevitable battle between Tywin and Renly , he keeps himself intact and allows his enemies to weaken themselves and then he can make his move depending on what happens between Tywin and Renly. Even Tywin admits that he is in a ton of trouble because of Robb's strategy and frankly is only saved because the shadowbaby killed Renly. 

 

 

Doing nothing to directly threaten Tywin while dispersing his troops and hoping for Renly to defeat Tywin means ceding the initiative.

Tywin admits he is in trouble because he just lost a quarter of his strength including his golden son while being threatened by a large army under Robb in the north and an even larger under Renly in the south.

When Robb decided to move and attack strategically insignificant targets in the west, the threat of being attacked on two fronts was lifted from Tywin and with Renly attacking Stannis at Stormsend, Tywin got a window of opportunity to move against his enemy in the north.

In Renly defeats Stannis at Stormsend Robb obviously would be in a much better position having his forces largely preserved but while Renly defeating Tywin is likely it is not certain.

 

 

 

 

[Ser Morbid]

On 13. 7. 2016 at 0:44 AM, Twenty of House Goodmen said:

Tywin is good. Maybe not great, but he's definitely a proven commander. 

In these forums, I say Ned. So many times I've seen Stark fans proclaim him as the genius leader who won the rebellion all by himself with proof. That's not to say I don't think he's good, but he's definitely overrated.

I've been apparently reading wrong books all this time

[fenr1s]

13 minutes ago, Cragen said:

If Robbs incursion into the Westerlands was big blunder, then why Tywin tried to fallow him into Westerland?

Because Renly moved to Stormsend and Kingslanding was save for the moment.

Tywin wanted to finish his northern enemy before he had to deal with the next.

[Cragen]

15 minutes ago, fenr1s said:

Because Renly moved to Stormsend and Kingslanding was save for the moment.

Tywin wanted to finish his northern enemy before he had to deal with the next.

Reason for Robb to move to Westerlands, beside of cutting resources from Tywin is to lure Tywin into trap and he took bait. Edmur wish to stop Tywin and Robbs lack of communication are reasons Tywin didn't fall into trap. Any way great military leader don't lose more then half of his army when he have great numbers advantage. So Tywin is not great leader like some of his fan think and what reputation he have.

[ed Lannister]

23 hours ago, TheSTARKempire said:

sad to see that some in the fandom thinks being vile and cunning to the extent of resorting to underhanded tactics to win a war equates to being a capable battle commander. Tywin's fanboys can scream all they want, but what wont change is the fact that he left behind an unstable realm and sowed boiling hatred towards filthy lannister(especially in the North). and it was because of luck(or should i say plot armour), Tyrion and Tyrells that they were able to hold on to the Iron Throne. Tywin is anything but a decent battle commander. 

same could be said of ned stark and robb stark as a lord as you put it...the north is likewise  unstable, lords fighting each other and back stabbing their fellow lords...

Ned basically hated Tywin and had pure scorn for the lannister name and family ever since the beginning of the books... and there is no recollection  in the ASOAIF timeline for a time where the north where ever loved the lannisters.

[Blackfish Tully]

52 minutes ago, fenr1s said:

That army was in a bad shape under an incompetent leader and would have had to get past Riverrun first. Edmure could have comfortably defended the crossing with a few thousand men.

 

The army was just getting organized when Robb hit them , they would have been much better organized and would have added the 4000 soldiers from the Golden Tooth so they would have been a real threat by the time they hit the Riverlands so it was better to hit them before they were ready . 

 

59 minutes ago, fenr1s said:

Doing nothing to directly threaten Tywin while dispersing his troops and hoping for Renly to defeat Tywin means ceding the initiative.

 

Letting Tywin and Renly fight it out while he keeps his strength intact is the much smarter move. Both Tywin and Renly are his enemies and letting them grind each other up is the best move for him. Robb is looking at a long term strategy to win the war and keep his kingdom intact and his strategy is the best chance of that happening . The shadowbaby destroyed that plan but who could have predicted that?

 

1 hour ago, fenr1s said:

When Robb decided to move and attack strategically insignificant targets in the west, the threat of being attacked on two fronts was lifted from Tywin and with Renly attacking Stannis at Stormsend, Tywin got a window of opportunity to move against his enemy in the north.

 

That's not true , Tywin did not move against Robb because Renly attacked Stannis at Storms End in fact he only moved against Robb after Renly was dead and Stannis was attacking Storms End. As long as Renly was alive Robb's plan was working and there was no reason to think that Renly would not destroy Stannis and move against Kings Landing which would cause a battle between Renly and Tywin and be the best thing that could happen for Robb. 

 

1 hour ago, fenr1s said:

 

In Renly defeats Stannis at Stormsend Robb obviously would be in a much better position having his forces largely preserved but while Renly defeating Tywin is likely it is not certain.

 

Renly outnumbers Tywin by a significant number so more than likely he wins that battle but even if Tywin wins he's going to take significant losses and combined with what he's already lost at Oxcross , Wispering Woods and the Battle of the Camps he would be in no shape to deal with Robb and the Riverlords . Robb;'s strategy gives him a great chance to destroy the Lannisters if Renly does not get killed by the shadowbaby. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 hours ago, TheSTARKempire said:

His military achievements are not so great to begin with.

Sure they are. He is close to 60 and every war he has fought in (the majority he has took a command position in) he has been on the winning side.

His military achievements  are great. The results speak for themselves.

8 hours ago, TheSTARKempire said:

 

He only won the war because Tyrell joined him,

He was only ever in trouble because the Tyrells betrayed their King.

8 hours ago, TheSTARKempire said:

and that itself was brokered by littlefinger.

Yes. It is called delegation. All great military commanders do this during war. It means that the war effort does not grind to a halt with indecision if every order is coming from one person.

Delegation and Communication are huge parts of military command. Cat brokered the deal with the Freys, without whom Robb would never have won his greatest victories.

I'm pretty sure that if you don't understand how delegation works in the military world then you never will. Luckily many of the people reading this will.

8 hours ago, TheSTARKempire said:

when people think of tywin, they think of his devious red wedding plan. 

Do they. Name these characters who only associate Tywin with that? The Northern Lords who were took down at the Red Wedding certainly thought he was a man to be feared before hand.

Or do you mean butthurt Robb fans who can't get over that Robb's fuck ups finally caught up with him?

8 hours ago, TheSTARKempire said:

The North was never going to be stable after what lannisters and the freys did. You may think it is stable,

Of course it not stable. There is still an Ironborn presence in the North.

8 hours ago, TheSTARKempire said:

but the process by which so-called 'peace' is attained is so questionable that rebellions will soon rise again once the opportunities arise.

Which has always been the case in the North, even with the Starks in control. Rebellions are a regular symtom of a feudal state.

8 hours ago, TheSTARKempire said:

 

 He didn't kill Tywin because the realm is oh-so-peaceful-thanks-to-god-tywin.  I agree with Kevin though since Varys himself has said before getting Kevan killed that Kevin's good governance is getting in his way.

Kevan and Tywin are pretty much one and the same. 

 

[TheSTARKempire]

21 hours ago, ed Lannister said:

same could be said of ned stark and robb stark as a lord as you put it...the north is likewise  unstable, lords fighting each other and back stabbing their fellow lords...

Ned basically hated Tywin and had pure scorn for the lannister name and family ever since the beginning of the books... and there is no recollection  in the ASOAIF timeline for a time where the north where ever loved the lannisters.

True. I never claim to say the North is so peaceful. There will always be political rivalries regardless of the cultural difference. The North politics might get as convoluted as the south. What I am defending is the ridiculous claims put forward by anti-north fans. They write as if the constant rebellions in the North is an indication that the starks are weak and little loved, while much evidence in the book shows the Starks are pretty much admired by their bannerman. The rebellions from the Karhold and White harbour by the stark branches has more to do with internal conflicts between the main stark and stark branches. Were I a Stark by name living in white harbour, I too might have harbour thoughts of claiming winterfell or becoming a main house, not just a cadet house. 

Yeah, that exactly is the story, isn't it. the fight between Stark and lannister is what drove the story in the first book. After what Tywin did in king's landing, Ned was right to be extra cautious when dealing with lannister, especially one under the helm of a very ambitious and cunning man like tywin.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

The most overrated to me is Jaime.He lost from an 15-year-old boy.In Feast he seems to have learned from his mistakes.I think Twyin Rhaegar and Stannis are overrated too.

[Lrd Commander Midnight]

Every Blackfyre pretender

[White Ravens]

Randyll Tarly.  I don't base that on what little knowledge I have of warfare and battle strategy.  I just think he's a dick. 

[aikojai]

Tywin without a doubt ! Robert's a close second for being the biggest coward alive !

[Lion of the West]

12 minutes ago, aikojai said:

Tywin without a doubt ! Robert's a close second for being the biggest coward alive !

How does being a coward affect his standing as a military commander? The two are not the same, as Brienne testified to Catelyn that there are different sorts of courage.

[dariopatke]

On 7/12/2016 at 8:29 PM, Cragen said:

Every assumption Tywin made was wrong, he assume Robb is green and he will rush to him, he assume Walder Frey would not let them pass, he didn't know where Roose Bolton is, Roose has come mile from Tywin camp during night. Tywin chose Green Fork, but Robb didn't come. In that battle every assumption he made were wrong, he was unable to neutralize that army despite victory. He assume Robb will attack Harrenhall. How stupid someone need to be to attack? It's castle know for invincibility, biggest castles in Westeros, he again underestimated Robb. He left Westerlands with 20k untrained peasants, they wouldn't stand a chance against Robb with his battle tested army even if he attacked them head on.

Yes, he underestimated Robb, but so would I and likely everyone else. He knew pretty well where Roose was, he just didnt expect him to do night march. Also you would assume clansmen would break fast, after all we saw just this with wildlings. I dont know if he expected him to attack, he certainly wished it but there were many other reasons he wanted to stay in HH. Stark stupid? How stupid someone need to be to ditch Freys and take Westerlings and their 50 good men? How stupid someone needs to be to behead one of his biggest contributors and kin?  And Robb left North with 2k untrained peasants. No one expected magic to lead magical creature to find goat path.

@The Sleeper

What is second battle? He was skirmished? Not much, Lorch, Hoat and Clegane mostly took care of it. If Tywin was there they would have had similar numbers, but Tywin could be in two positions:

1) in the city which makes it impossible for Stannis to take

2) Tywin arrives when he did in CoK  and prevents Stannis from crossing river, problem is that Stannis had part of his forces in battlefield and Tywin can just hold northern part of river and take out those who dare to cross it.

No, Staffords plan was great. If Robb marches on Harenhall Tywin will surround him, if he stays in RR he can divert Robbs intention so Tywin can handle other Kings. How in the world could ser Stafford know Robbs magical wolf found goat path?

It is known what Ned thinks about Lannisters and he took his son and heir. Ned also sentenced Tywins bannerman to die without trial and called him to KL to face a trial and you actually see Lannister-Stark alliance? Not to mention A LOT of people were working to destroy this ''alliance''. Also Harenhall is perfect position to hold because everything is close: Vale (if our favorite aunt Lysa decided to join), Kingsroad and Roose, Riverrun and Robb and KL.

I believe it was pretty clear Baelish is their overlord and how do they command more men than Lannisters??

Now you are mistaking books and show, book Roose  would never oppose Tywin only to marry Sansa to Ramsay, besides he already has Arya. 

Sorry for late answers

[fenr1s]

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

 

@The Sleeper

 

No, Staffords plan was great. If Robb marches on Harenhall Tywin will surround him, if he stays in RR he can divert Robbs intention so Tywin can handle other Kings. How in the world could ser Stafford know Robbs magical wolf found goat path?

I dont think Staffords job was more than to defend the Westerlands.

His forces were of low quality and would have had to cross the Redfork first to go on the offensive, a feat even Tywins much better army struggled badly with.

[Blackfish Tully]

11 hours ago, fenr1s said:

I dont think Staffords job was more than to defend the Westerlands.

His forces were of low quality and would have had to cross the Redfork first to go on the offensive, a feat even Tywins much better army struggled badly with.

That makes little sense , Tywin was fighting Robb and the Riverlords in the Riverlands and was looking at fighting Renly and the Reach at Kings Landing and because of the destruction of Jaimie's army he was badly outnumbered , he needed another army in the Riverlands to help him fight off Robb and so he could relieve Kings Landing , raising an army to defend the Westerlands makes no logical sense since there was no reason to believe anybody would attack the Westerlands. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

On 14/07/2016 at 1:35 PM, Cragen said:

If Robbs incursion into the Westerlands was big blunder, then why Tywin tried to fallow him into Westerland?

We are told it was because he thought that Stannis would be occupied at Storm's End for a number of time and Tywin gambled that he had time to deal with Robb in that period.

Robb had been in the West for months before that and months after that and Tywin did not feel the need to move in on Robb. He could not have been doing that much damage.

 

18 hours ago, aikojai said:

Robert's a close second for being the biggest coward alive !

How on earth is Robert a coward? Mediocre King, awful father and husband but he is hardly a coward. He is likely the best military commander we have seen alive in the series and I have yet to see any argument to demonstrate how overrated he is (especially in the fandom).

On 14/07/2016 at 1:07 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

Actually Robb's attacking the Westerlands was probably the best move he could make at that time . 

Yeah I kind of agree with that, though my problem was with how much of it was just dumb luck. Robb rides to the West with an army that was either unlikely to take the Golden Tooth or alert Stafford and every other Westerland noble of his presence but just happens to find a pathway that no Westerland vassal knew about and surprised an (untrained) with no scouts.

Robb could not have possibly planned for that at Riverrun. So while the pay off was worth it there is little reason to think it should have worked in the first place.

And then there is the events after he has beaten Stafford. He should have returned East and put pressure on Tywin at Harrenhall or even Joffrey at Kings Landing which would have seen Harrenhal abandoned.

 

Oxcross was a great (if unexpected) result but stalling in the West was the wrong move.