as Ned the worst ever Lord of Winterfell ?

[Count Balerion]

51 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Who wants plausible, when one could have magnificent, impossible, larger than life? You start examining it closely enough, and the story will fall apart under the scrutiny. You couldn't have Winterfell, you couldn't have the Night's Watch, you couldn't have Gregor Clegane, and many other older than time, larger than life elements.

The trick is, therefore, not to examine too closely. Sit back and be entertained.

Oh, my comment referred only to the historical background (and specifically to the Starks surviving for -- is it 8,000 years?), not to the story itself, which I agree is everything you say it is. 

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

This seems like a stretch. Robb wiped the floor with Tywin Lannister, the most feared man in Westeros. By the end of Robb's run he made Tywin look like an old man on the ropes. An old man so desperate to win he enticed a house to break one of the oldest laws in the world to ensure he'd win the war because he was no longer sure he'd be able to do it on the battlefield.

Jon Snow was elected Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. One of the youngest people to hold the office. He's a proven battle commander and is highly respected.

Don't be fooled by the fact it ended poorly for them both. They'll both be remembered forever. They will both be legends, and were both raised by Ned Stark. Losing doesn't mean you're an idiot, or that you suck. There is only one winner. Doing whatever it takes to win puts you in first place but the world knows what you did. Years from now nobody will be talking about Tywin Lannister, they'll be talking about how Robb was a total badass but was betrayed by the Freys and Boltons in service to the Lannisters. Tywin's name probably won't even come up. Ned's will though. Time will be kind to Ned Stark. History is written by the winners they say, but The Lannisters haven't exactly won yet. Ned lost because he tried to save the lives of Cersei's children. That alone will soften the view of him if it ever gets out. Worst Stark Lord? Never. Unluckiest? Absolutely. Ned, Robb, Jon, none of them were beaten in the field, it took betrayal and politics. That says something. Ned was a badass who raised even bigger badasses.  If Tywin lived and Jon Snow raised an army to come South Tywin would take him incredibly seriously. That's Ned's legacy, the notion that his sons are dangerous enemies.

[Adam Yozza]

2 hours ago, Masha said:

By the time Sansa told the Queen about her father's plan, Ned already revealed his entire hand to the same Queen. The battle was lost the moment Ned opened his big honorable mouth in attempt to give Cersei "the chance".

You are wrong about Ned/Robb being the worst Stark Kings around. There are stories about Stark kings who got themselves killed, who allowed WF to be burned (I mean the whole place was burned and raised many times throughout centuries, and Boltons were the ones doing it at least several times too). The point is Starks always came back, win over Winterfell and the North , and get their revenge.

Its just that North was mostly at peace for the last couple of hundred years as North joined the 7 Kingdoms and stayed out of most major Targaryen-related wars.

One way or another, Stark children and/or Jon will do the same too - get Wnterfell back, get revenge, and restore Stark rule. After all, didn't GRRM planned to call the last book "the Time for Wolves" but then changed it because he felt it was too spoilery of a title? Its definitely looks like Starks are getting theirs back.

I think you misunderstood my post's, although fair point about the Ned thing. I thought he did that after, but I guess I was mistaken.

And I don't think that either Ned or Robb were poor Lords/Kings. I think Ned was a great lord. Robb did a decent job as lord and king; he was just outclassed by Tywin.

[Adam Yozza]

4 hours ago, Kal-L said:

Why ? Ned wasn't even supposed to rule the North in the first place.

Yeah I know. All I was saying was that while you can blame Ned's failure to play the Game on his honour; refusing the offers of Renly and Littlefinger; you can't blame Ned's honour for Robb's mistakes.

[Julia H.]

Ned was a very good lord in the North. He wasn't a successful player at the Southron Game.

Regarding what he taught Robb, I agree with most of this:

1 hour ago, The Broke Howard Hughes said:

This seems like a stretch. Robb wiped the floor with Tywin Lannister, the most feared man in Westeros. By the end of Robb's run he made Tywin look like an old man on the ropes. An old man so desperate to win he enticed a house to break one of the oldest laws in the world to ensure he'd win the war because he was no longer sure he'd be able to do it on the battlefield.

Jon Snow was elected Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. One of the youngest people to hold the office. He's a proven battle commander and is highly respected.

Don't be fooled by the fact it ended poorly for them both. They'll both be remembered forever. They will both be legends, and were both raised by Ned Stark. Losing doesn't mean you're an idiot, or that you suck. There is only one winner. Doing whatever it takes to win puts you in first place but the world knows what you did. Years from now nobody will be talking about Tywin Lannister, they'll be talking about how Robb was a total badass but was betrayed by the Freys and Boltons in service to the Lannisters. Tywin's name probably won't even come up. Ned's will though. Time will be kind to Ned Stark. History is written by the winners they say, but The Lannisters haven't exactly won yet. Ned lost because he tried to save the lives of Cersei's children. That alone will soften the view of him if it ever gets out. Worst Stark Lord? Never. Unluckiest? Absolutely. Ned, Robb, Jon, none of them were beaten in the field, it took betrayal and politics. That says something. Ned was a badass who raised even bigger badasses.  If Tywin lived and Jon Snow raised an army to come South Tywin would take him incredibly seriously. That's Ned's legacy, the notion that his sons are dangerous enemies.

Robb was very successful for his age and for the general situation. Whatever Ned had taught him, he could not show his son how to fight a real war in practice. The first time Robb tried it, it was live and deadly, and he was the leader, and there was no room for mistakes.  

Anyway, how on earth could Ned have foreseen that Robb would become the Lord of Winterfell at the age of 15 and right at the beginning of a war? It all happened practically overnight. Furthermore, how could Ned have known that his 15-year-old son would have to learn to be a king and rule what in essence became a country fighting for independence? That is a much more difficult job than being the Lord of Winterfell essentially in peacetime and on good terms with the IT.    

I'm not even sure that Ned's honor is to blame for Robb's marriage. For all Robb knew, his father had had a lover, who had given him a son, yet Ned had not abandoned Lady Catelyn. Jon was also brought up by Ned, we know that his role model was Ned; yet, he was able to leave Ygritte for his duty and for the realm, and he specifically compared himself to Ned Stark leaving his lover and returning to his wife and to his duty when he left Ygritte to return to the Night's Watch. 

[Sourjapes]

I think it can be argued that Ned was ultimately a bad Lord because he created a bad legacy, perhaps.

 

Robb might have turned all of it into glory... but that was ONLY because he just so happened to be gifted as a very skilled battle commander. If he didn't have that he'd just be a total failure in his conflict with the Throne.

 

The North is a harsher place than the South. Just look at the Boltons or Umbers, or the Mountain Clans, the Skagosi, and even the Crannogmen. Do those families/lands seem as civilized and orderly, as nice, as the lands of the South? It's a much harsher culture in the North and the Starks didn't win control of it by being always so merciful and honorable and kind; they won it through slaughtering their enemies or taking advantage of them when they were weak... and grabbing hostages.

Ned and his sons were too soft and Ned himself might have lost the North in the event of a large war in which his friend and King was not the victor. If the South can play Robb for a fool and murder him and his men then I see no reason those same actors couldn't do the same to Ned if he was in that same position.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

12 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

Having been doing some homework and reading up on the history of Westero's, If i have read right the Starks were one of the first to settle in Westero's and one of the first Great Houses. And all throughout history was one of, if not the only house never to lose it's hold over their Region... when all other great houses were going extinct or losing theirs.

It's quite impressive through all the changes the Starks of Winterfell remained a constant.... until Ned.

Ned clearly was not the worst Stark ruler. He successfully helped win two wars, kept the loyalty of his vassals and ensured a path that his heirs would take over. He was also one of only two Northern Hands. His twenty year stint as Lord is actually pretty decent, though his demise, makes it seem a little worse it has to be remembered that many of the finest lords in medieval times eventually had some fall from grace.

Robb on the other hand is, likely, the worst Stark ruler in Northern history. The first Stark to not only lose the North but see Winterfell destroyed and its people massacred while another House took over from the Starks.

[The Wolves]

7 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Ned clearly was not the worst Stark ruler. He successfully helped win two wars, kept the loyalty of his vassals and ensured a path that his heirs would take over. He was also one of only two Northern Hands. His twenty year stint as Lord is actually pretty decent, though his demise, makes it seem a little worse it has to be remembered that many of the finest lords in medieval times eventually had some fall from grace.

Robb on the other hand is, likely, the worst Stark ruler in Northern history. The first Stark to not only lose the North but see Winterfell destroyed and its people massacred while another House took over from the Starks.

Robb never lost the North.  Hell the Boltons sure don't control it. 

[House Beaudreau]

12 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

Having been doing some homework and reading up on the history of Westero's, If i have read right the Starks were one of the first to settle in Westero's and one of the first Great Houses. And all throughout history was one of, if not the only house never to lose it's hold over their Region... when all other great houses were going extinct or losing theirs.

It's quite impressive through all the changes the Starks of Winterfell remained a constant.... until Ned.

 

The Starks were probably not one of the first Great houses. Westeros was settled from Dorne up, by the first men but most houses married and mingled with the Andels and Rhoynar eventually leaving the North as the only region that kept first men blood and didn't forget the old gods. The Starks are just the one great house left that didn't taint their blood with Andels or Rhynish or convert to the Faith of the Seven. Until Ned married Cat. Maybe the old gods cursed the Starks for marrying an outsider, Which Rickard set up, so maybe he's the worst Lord of Winterfell for this alone.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

45 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Robb never lost the North.

Sure he did. He is the King who lost the North.

45 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

 Hell the Boltons sure don't control it. 

Yeah, they pretty much do. Many might not like it but they have sworn fealty to their new Warden. This may well change in the future but presently the Boltons rule the North.

[Boarsbane]

6 hours ago, The Broke Howard Hughes said:

This seems like a stretch. Robb wiped the floor with Tywin Lannister, the most feared man in Westeros. By the end of Robb's run he made Tywin look like an old man on the ropes. An old man so desperate to win he enticed a house to break one of the oldest laws in the world to ensure he'd win the war because he was no longer sure he'd be able to do it on the battlefield.

Jon Snow was elected Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. One of the youngest people to hold the office. He's a proven battle commander and is highly respected.

Don't be fooled by the fact it ended poorly for them both. They'll both be remembered forever. They will both be legends, and were both raised by Ned Stark. Losing doesn't mean you're an idiot, or that you suck. There is only one winner. Doing whatever it takes to win puts you in first place but the world knows what you did. Years from now nobody will be talking about Tywin Lannister, they'll be talking about how Robb was a total badass but was betrayed by the Freys and Boltons in service to the Lannisters. Tywin's name probably won't even come up. Ned's will though. Time will be kind to Ned Stark. History is written by the winners they say, but The Lannisters haven't exactly won yet. Ned lost because he tried to save the lives of Cersei's children. That alone will soften the view of him if it ever gets out. Worst Stark Lord? Never. Unluckiest? Absolutely. Ned, Robb, Jon, none of them were beaten in the field, it took betrayal and politics. That says something. Ned was a badass who raised even bigger badasses.  If Tywin lived and Jon Snow raised an army to come South Tywin would take him incredibly seriously. That's Ned's legacy, the notion that his sons are dangerous enemies.

No one will care Robb won a few meaningless  battles against Tywin's lackeys. He might be remembered in the North in a positive light and maybe even in the Riverlands, but everywhere else he'll be nothing more than a notch on Tywin's sword. Ned won't be remembered either anywhere outside the North, unless Dany claims the throne in which case he'll be reviled like Tywin, Jaime, and Robert. Tywin was the great man of his time, he won't be remembered fondly by most, but anyone with a brain will know that was a man to be reckoned with. And Jon won a rigged election and is no where near a proven battle commander, Tywin's son is the greatest warrior Westeros has ever seen, insanely handsome (like his father), and "a proven battle commander".

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Sure he did. He is the King who lost the North.

Yeah, they pretty much do. Many might not like it but they have sworn fealty to their new Warden. This may well change in the future but presently the Boltons rule the North.

I guess the Northern army/multiple houses outside of Winterfell at the end of ADWD are just lining up to finish swearing fealty?  

The Boltons are nowhere near control of the north. 

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

9 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

No one will care Robb won a few meaningless  battles against Tywin's lackeys. He might be remembered in the North in a positive light and maybe even in the Riverlands, but everywhere else he'll be nothing more than a notch on Tywin's sword. Ned won't be remembered either anywhere outside the North, unless Dany claims the throne in which case he'll be reviled like Tywin, Jaime, and Robert. Tywin was the great man of his time, he won't be remembered fondly by most, but anyone with a brain will know that was a man to be reckoned with. And Jon won a rigged election and is no where near a proven battle commander, Tywin's son is the greatest warrior Westeros has ever seen, insanely handsome (like his father), and "a proven battle commander".

Disagree on the Ned not being remembered outside the North part. His family was infamously butchered by Aerys, and in turn he became an integral piece in finishing off the Targaryen dynasty. He is also currently known as one of the traitors to the crown who set the events of the War of the Five Kings in motion. 

[The Wolves]

14 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

No one will care Robb won a few meaningless  battles against Tywin's lackeys. He might be remembered in the North in a positive light and maybe even in the Riverlands, but everywhere else he'll be nothing more than a notch on Tywin's sword. Ned won't be remembered either anywhere outside the North, unless Dany claims the throne in which case he'll be reviled like Tywin, Jaime, and Robert. Tywin was the great man of his time, he won't be remembered fondly by most, but anyone with a brain will know that was a man to be reckoned with. And Jon won a rigged election and is no where near a proven battle commander, Tywin's son is the greatest warrior Westeros has ever seen, insanely handsome (like his father), and "a proven battle commander".

Tywin's son is a cripple, child killer, kingslayer and sister fucker, Jaime is not something to rave about. 

[The Wolves]

6 minutes ago, Twenty of House Goodmen said:

Disagree on the Ned not being remembered outside the North part. His family was infamously butchered by Aerys, and in turn he became an integral piece in finishing off the Targaryen dynasty. He is also currently known as one of the traitors to the crown who set the events of the War of the Five Kings in motion.

No he's not. I don't remember anybody not a Lannister bitch calling Ned a traitor or blaming him for TWt5ks. 

[Boarsbane]

3 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Tywin's son is a cripple, child killer, kingslayer and sister fucker, Jaime is not something to rave about. 

Well yes he's also all of those, aside from a child killer, but he also has the fact he isn't a corpse over Robb and Jon as well. 

[The Wolves]

3 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

Well yes he's also all of those, aside from a child killer, but he also has the fact he isn't a corpse over Robb and Jon as well. 

He's getting there most likely taking his sister with him. This is also not something to rave about. If the best thing you can say about Jaime is that he's not a corpse than more power to you. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Please read the quote in my sig. Any man who can inspire that kind of loyalty years after his death can be considered to be a great leader.

 

[teej6]

25 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Please read the quote in my sig. Any man who can inspire that kind of loyalty years after his death can be considered to be a great leader.

 

Exactly! The Northerners are willing to go to war and die for The Ned's Little Girl long after his death. I doubt Tywin's bannermen would sacrifice much if not forced to for any of the Lannister kids. 

[Valyrian Blade]

By the westerosi standards Ned is probably one of the greatest lords ever. As far as everyone knows Ned slew Arthur Dayne, was a key player in ending the biggest dynasty Westeros had ever seen, served as hand of the king and was known as a man of honor (and being executed for treason didn't change that). He is respected by pretty much everyone loved by his bannermen and smallfolk and even makes men like Jaime Lannister bitter with his judgement. Fathered the young wolf who is regarded as a hero by pretty much all northmen who are also willing to give their lives for his legacy.

And about Robb... judging him is unfair, you have to consider that he's 15 when he becomes lord of winterfell, he is forced to march to war and is crowned king by his own bannermen and the riverlords who had never been ruled by the Starks all at the age of 15. Name another lord that had to deal with all that pressure? On top of all that he has to face Tywin Lannister of all people.