as Ned the worst ever Lord of Winterfell ?

[Lord Lannister]

Why are we so determined to put blame on the Starks of late? These threads keep cropping up like weeds.

[Osric]

It was freakin' CATELYN TULLY from the moment she convinced Ned to go to KL only to improve her family social position... and all the other stupidities she did.

[DMC]

21 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Why are we so determined to put blame on the Starks of late? These threads keep cropping up like weeds.

There seem to be three general trends on here that come in waves:  Stark hate, Dany hate, then deifying Tywin/justifying Walder.

[Dya of Oldstones]

3 hours ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

It's no good for the Stark to get too many close relationships with the South, they'd better stay in the North. I agree with those above for Rickard's mistake. He might be ambitious and it harmed his family. I wonder if we will get more of the scene in which Aerys burned Rickard and killed Brandon. 

Ned was stupid but had he stayed in the North it would have been ok for the rest of his life. He is an OK ruler. Again, his wife was his dismay. Another reason to say the Stark shouldn't get too close to the Southern lords. 

I'm not here for the Ned or Cat bashing or any Stark bashing for that matter. As much as we can put the blame on Rickard, there were practical reasons for what he was doing. We do find out from Barbrey Dustin just how at least one Northern house felt about that. Pretty much all Paramount houses, even in the south generally married into their banner houses until the time of Robert's Rebellion, but that changed because politics.

I disagree with you that Ned was stupid, but agree he would have done much better staying put in Winterfell. Once Robert got there needing a new Hand, it would have been political suicide to turn it down and risk insulting the Crown.

I blame that whole mess on Littlefinger. We find out from Lysa before she was  pushed through the moon door that the whole thing was set up from her poisoning Jon Arryn, then sending the letter to Cat. It wouldn't surprise me if LF was dropping hints in Robert's direction to further lure Ned to KL. No actual text support for that, but it's not much of a reach either.

 

[Boarsbane]

6 hours ago, Kal-L said:

He isn't, Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy were better for sure, it can be argued that Robert was better in his prime, that's it for his contemporaneous. He won't be remembered as a great warrior because despite his talent he never did anything worth praising, it was the main purpose of his read of the White Book, his achievements seem really insignificants, especially compared to someone like Barristan the Bold who for his part will be remembered as a legend. Jaime for his part will be remembered as a sister fucker, a kingslayer and a oathbreaker. Tywin was never ever said/implied to be good looking in anyway stop trying to assert your biased headcanon here.

He's the most naturally gifted swordsman Barristan has ever seen. GRRM claims he could beat Aragorn somewhere, he's either above Selmy and Dayne or equal to. Look at what Arthur Dayne did, killed a single famous outlaw.  Fought in no actual wars. Is he remembered as a great warrior? Yes. As to Tywin, he's described as tall, broad shouldered, and as hard as a man at 20. Lannisters are typically tall, golden haired, and handsome. His seed produced Jaime and Cersei. It's really a simple matter of connecting the dots...

[Aryya Stark]

16 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

He probably is, at the very least he's equal with whoever you claim is best. Of course he'll be remembered as a great warrior, it's undeniable. Tywin us described as handsome even at 60, looking at the twins it isn't hard to draw the conclusion he was a very good looking man in his youth. Except Tywin didn't break the taboo, Walder Frey did.

I beg to differ, even Brienne was better than him or at least a match for him. I think the Hound would have wiped the floor with him had they battled each other. As for Tywin being handsome because the twins are good looking, iirc, Cersie takes after her mother Joanna. Jaime had a dream in aFFC where he sees his mother and at first assumes she is Cersie. Cersie and Jaime look like each other so it's not difficult to assume that they both take after their mother.

8 hours ago, Kal-L said:

He isn't, Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy were better for sure, it can be argued that Robert was better in his prime, that's it for his contemporaneous. He won't be remembered as a great warrior because despite his talent he never did anything worth praising, it was the main purpose of his read of the White Book, his achievements seem really insignificants, especially compared to someone like Barristan the Bold who for his part will be remembered as a legend. Jaime for his part will be remembered as a sister fucker, a kingslayer and a oathbreaker. Tywin was never ever said/implied to be good looking in anyway stop trying to assert your biased headcanon here.

Exactly!

[Aryya Stark]

5 hours ago, Osric said:

It was freakin' CATELYN TULLY from the moment she convinced Ned to go to KL only to improve her family social position... and all the other stupidities she did.

I tend to agree with this. I blame Cat for being over-proud and thinking too highly of herself and her intellect. It was because of Cat that Ned put his trust in LF, although every instinct he had told him not to. 

• Cat convinces him to go south, because of the LF/Lysa letter.
• Cat kidnaps Tyrion, despite Ned having told her in KL that he couldn't make a move against the Lannisters without proof, thereby she not only endangered her husband and daughters but also her father and brother.
• Cat releases Jaime which was the only trump card the Starks had. As long as Jaime was in their hands there wouldn't have been a RW imho.

The only thing Cat got right was warning Robb about putting his trust his Theon.

5 hours ago, dmc515 said:

There seem to be three general trends on here that come in waves:  Stark hate, Dany hate, then deifying Tywin/justifying Walder.

Yes and it is becoming quite boring.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

There were a lot of individuals who either fucked up with mistakes or intentionally caused war, chaos, invasions, strife, to cause the destructive civil war.

I don't think it is fair to blame Ned alone for the less of Winterfell. Especially since it wasn't lost when he got beheaded. Even from the Stark camp, Catelyn's and Robbs mistakes also were important and mattered.

Now some people like Littlefinger or Cersei are more to blame for the mess that Westeros than others when it comes to not viewing the Starks specifically.

[Nocturne]

Catelyn and Sansa are two of the dumbest characters on this show/series. Granted Sansa has improved her wits under the tutelage of Little Finger , but she's still pretty stupid by any standards.

Ned was a good ruler of his region, almost all northern lords respected him, or at least feared him ( Boltons come to mind, but historically they have a habit of not "respecting" the starks at all).

He had good diplomatic relationships with the men that ruled the other regions as well, not to mention he was best buds with the king. In my book he made only one mistake, and that was telling Cerci to make a run for it, except that he played well with the cards he had.

 

[Boarsbane]

3 hours ago, Aryya Stark said:

I beg to differ, even Brienne was better than him or at least a match for him. I think the Hound would have wiped the floor with him had they battled each other. As for Tywin being handsome because the twins are good looking, iirc, Cersie takes after her mother Joanna. Jaime had a dream in aFFC where he sees his mother and at first assumes she is Cersie. Cersie and Jaime look like each other so it's not difficult to assume that they both take after their mother.

Exactly!

Brienne was a match for him after the Starks had mistreat and starved him for months and his hands were chained. She thinks to herself no man could stand before him when he's healthy and his hands are free. Tywin and Joanna are first cousins, assuming one is good looking and the other isn't is ridiculous. He comes from a house that is renowned for having handsome members and people are somehow in denial that Tywin would of looked like a Lannister in his youth, hard to believe. 

[Drekinn]

Cat's not only a terrible politician but a horrible person as well. People will defend her because she loves her kids, despite being incredibly selfish with an utter disregard for other people, especially commoners and bastards (not just Jon), and an arrogance so big she expects to be served without question, see the inn scene when she orders Tyrion to be taken prisoner. Funny enough, she and Lyssa and two sides of the same coin.

[Vhailin]

1 hour ago, Nocturne said:

Catelyn and Sansa are two of the dumbest characters on this show/series. Granted Sansa has improved her wits under the tutelage of Little Finger , but she's still pretty stupid by any standards.

Ned was a good ruler of his region, almost all northern lords respected him, or at least feared him ( Boltons come to mind, but historically they have a habit of not "respecting" the starks at all).

He had good diplomatic relationships with the men that ruled the other regions as well, not to mention he was best buds with the king. In my book he made only one mistake, and that was telling Cerci to make a run for it, except that he played well with the cards he had.

 

100% agreed with you wrote. And the fact that people think Sansa will somehow kill LITTLEFINGER in some 'apprentice kills master' cliché type scenario, is comical and pure fanfiction at best.

[Vhailin]

Lol, I don't understand why Sansa keeps getting whitewashed. Ned told Sansa and Arya at breakfast they would be returning to Winterfell (before Robert died, not the morning of the attempted coup). It's the very time Ned realises Joffrey's true parentage. Later in the day, Cersei meets him in the Godswood. In war, it's all about LEVERAGE. If Sansa had not went to Cersei, the Stark girls, and poor Jeyne Pool, would have been safe behind the walls of Winterfell. Ned didn't care whether they planned to execute him or not, after he was arrested (if it went against his honour). Ned only confessed to treason because he feared for Sansa's life (back to my point about leverage). Sansa is the sole reason why her House is pretty much on the brink of collapse.

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"We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn’t come to me and told me all her father’s plans . . ."

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Amazon.co.uk: You write children well.

Martin: I don't have any but I was one once. When the series was originally conceived, it was only three volumes long and I did not know that several of the main characters were going to be stuck with being children for so much of it. The hardest chapters for me to write are the ones about Bran, just because he is the character most involved in magic, the youngest child and he is so seriously crippled--I have to write in that sense of powerlessness and it has always to convince. Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father's death. Jon Snow is the truest character--I like his sense of realism and the way he copes with his bastardy.

 

But what does GRRM know? It's not as if he wrote the series and devised all the characters from scratch...

Anyway... back to the OP's topic. imo, potentially, the worst ever Lord of Winterfell would have been Brandon Stark (Ned's elder brother). Only a complete idiot would ride to the Red Keep, with squires and lordlings at their back, to call out the Crown Prince. Maybe he thought him and Rhaegar would brawl in the throne room, the way they do in Northern alehouses?

[Drekinn]

5 minutes ago, Vhailin said:

Anyway... back to the OP's topic. imo, potentially, the worst ever Lord of Winterfell would have been Brandon Stark (Ned's elder brother). Only a complete idiot would ride to the Red Keep, with squires and lordlings at their back, to call out the Crown Prince. Maybe he thought him and Rhaegar would brawl in the throne room, the way they do in Northern alehouses?

This makes me think... Brandon and Lyanna were both described as wild. Since this comes from their family members I wonder if it's a nice and biased way to call them stupid. As you said, Brandon was a hotheaded jerk who threatened the prince in front of a known mad man with roasting fetish. And Lyanna IF she willingly ran away with Rhaegar, well, that's just as stupid.

[Aryya Stark]

1 hour ago, Boarsbane said:

Brienne was a match for him after the Starks had mistreat and starved him for months and his hands were chained. She thinks to herself no man could stand before him when he's healthy and his hands are free. Tywin and Joanna are first cousins, assuming one is good looking and the other isn't is ridiculous. He comes from a house that is renowned for having handsome members and people are somehow in denial that Tywin would of looked like a Lannister in his youth, hard to believe. 

And he (Jaime) thinks to himself that she is stronger than him, like Robert Baratheon was stronger than him, amongst others, etc. I think I will take his word on this matter.

As for Tywin's appearance, Kevan Lannister who is Tywin's brother and not his cousin is not considered handsome. Lady Genna, his sister is not considered handsome. Unfortunately, we do not know what his other brother Tygett Lannister looked like nor do we know what Gerion looked like. Oh they are all intelligent, but none are considered handsome. Tygett is known for his recklessness and Gerion for his sense of humor, neither is known for their looks. 

So if your argument is that Joanna's looks rubbed off Tywin just because they are cousins, that doesn't really work. I am not saying Tywin is ugly, but "insanely handsome"? Come on! Where does GRRM say that in the text? All we know is he is tall, slender and broad shouldered....that gives him a good body, but handsome? 

[Boarsbane]

1 hour ago, Aryya Stark said:

And he (Jaime) thinks to himself that she is stronger than him, like Robert Baratheon was stronger than him, amongst others, etc. I think I will take his word on this matter.

As for Tywin's appearance, Kevan Lannister who is Tywin's brother and not his cousin is not considered handsome. Lady Genna, his sister is not considered handsome. Unfortunately, we do not know what his other brother Tygett Lannister looked like nor do we know what Gerion looked like. Oh they are all intelligent, but none are considered handsome. Tygett is known for his recklessness and Gerion for his sense of humor, neither is known for their looks. 

So if your argument is that Joanna's looks rubbed off Tywin just because they are cousins, that doesn't really work. I am not saying Tywin is ugly, but "insanely handsome"? Come on! Where does GRRM say that in the text? All we know is he is tall, slender and broad shouldered....that gives him a good body, but handsome? 

She's stronger than him after months of him being held captive and underfed, not that it equates to her being a better fighter than him. So if you are going to Jaime's word then are you going to take Brienne's word that no knight could stand against him if he was unhindered, or is that too inconvenient to your original statement?

They're both pushing 60, we can reasonably assume Gerion and Tygett were tall, blonde, and handsome because in this world that's what most Lannister men are with rare exceptions like Tyrion. Kevan's son is considered good looking, but I suppose that's the mothers genes too like the twins.

I'm sorry you object to the word "insanely" but I don't see any reason to doubt Tywin was very good looking like his eldest son is.

 

[Dragondengar]

On 7/13/2016 at 1:07 AM, teej6 said:

Exactly! The Northerners are willing to go to war and die for The Ned's Little Girl long after his death. I doubt Tywin's bannermen would sacrifice much if not forced to for any of the Lannister kids. 

 

"I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that." - Big Bucket Wull

In this comment, Big Bucket Wull is advising that his Men are going to Die one way or the other . Winter is upon the North. Traditionally the onset of Winter was the time of war amongst the Kingdoms of the North as it eliminated mouths that didn't have to be filled with food over the winter and led to the victors claiming additional supplies and spoils of war as Supplies for the lean times. 

In essence, he is going to spend his men's lives in either case. He would rather spend them to try to buy something Lasting rather than let them go to waste. This is an example of Northern Practicality

[The Frosted King]

12 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

He's the most naturally gifted swordsman Barristan has ever seen. GRRM claims he could beat Aragorn somewhere, he's either above Selmy and Dayne or equal to. Look at what Arthur Dayne did, killed a single famous outlaw.  Fought in no actual wars. Is he remembered as a great warrior? Yes. As to Tywin, he's described as tall, broad shouldered, and as hard as a man at 20. Lannisters are typically tall, golden haired, and handsome. His seed produced Jaime and Cersei. It's really a simple matter of connecting the dots...

 

Drop it breh.

The most lauded, glorified warrior in general to the Westerosi is easily Aemon the Dragonknight.

Of the contemporaries to the Kingslayer, legend status will likely be grafted onto Ser Barristan the Bold, who won his first tourney at age 9 i believe, and then all his other notable achievements, followed by Ser Arthur Dayne, since he was sick with the blade as well as having the magical sword buff bonus.

Jaime Lannister aka the Kingslayer will likely find his name to be lumped into the tier with the Smiling Knight, the Mountain that Rides and the Brothers Toyne. He's a bad guy to the general public(well deserved i might add) and his footnote will conclude with his death at the hands of a greater hero's ascension to glory.

To the original question....No, Ned isn't the worst Lord of Winterfell ever.

Neither is Robb. Winterfell has been burnt at least twice and the Stark's rallied and recovered. So shall it be in this saga.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 minutes ago, The Frosted King said:

 

 

To the original question....No, Ned isn't the worst Lord of Winterfell ever.

Neither is Robb. Winterfell has been burnt at least twice and the Stark's rallied and recovered. So shall it be in this saga.

Did the Starks lose control of the North and another House take over those time? Did the people of Winterfell get massacred and the armies of the North slaughtered during these other times? Did the other Stark Lords ignore their responsibility to the Watch from Wildling attacks? Did these other Starks do a piss poor job of preparing for Winter?

Robb was a disaster as a Stark ruler. Had he lived he may well have gone on to be the next Cregan but he didn't.

[The Frosted King]

16 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Did the Starks lose control of the North and another House take over those time? Did the people of Winterfell get massacred and the armies of the North slaughtered during these other times? Did the other Stark Lords ignore their responsibility to the Watch from Wildling attacks? Did these other Starks do a piss poor job of preparing for Winter?

Robb was a disaster as a Stark ruler. Had he lived he may well have gone on to be the next Cregan but he didn't.

Well, since i doubt that the north had flame retardant clothing, yes, i suspect the people of Winterfell were killed when it was burned once or twice.

I also suspect that to even get all the way to Winterfell, yes some Stark armies were destroyed by the burners. 

Yep, i suspect some foolish kings/lords underestimated the threat of winter and their smallfolk died in grave numbers.

Over a length of time as long as eight thousand years, i suppose a great many tragedies befell the people of the north.

And Robb made mistakes, surely.

But Robb was also the only power that didn't have someone else there to pick up the slack. 

Of the three ultimate angles in the saga, them being Stark, Lannister and Targaryen, the Stark is the only pov that suffered the consequences of their mistakes. 

Targaryen, if Dany screws up, Jorah is there to fix things. Then Daario, and followed by Barristan.

Lannister, when Joffrey screws up, Tyrion is there to fix things. Then Tywin. Funny how once both are gone, the Lannisters start to really suffer as a power.

Stark, Robb screws up. Rodrik throws wildfire on the screw up. Catelyn then gives the coordinates for a nuclear strike, forgetting that her son and his army are loitering in the target drop zone. The whole second book reeks of plot driving, rather than characterization doing it.