Could have Loras Tyrell been able to kill The Mountain in the Hand's tourney?

[BricksAndSparrows]

On 7/12/2016 at 9:04 PM, mystickristoff said:

After the jousting defeat of The Mountain he tried to kill Loras but then The Hound intervened. Now, what if The Hound didn't intervene and Robert just watched, and Loras managed to run and grab his sword and shield or whichever weapon suited best to kill The Mountain, would Loras have been able to do it? Kill the mountain? The Mountain of course has his usual greatsword and both men were wearing armor at the time. Loras was an extremely skilled natural prodigy after all, according to Barristan and Jaime. Plus The Mountain just fell off his horse right before he tried to kill Loras.

I think Loras stood a chance, but I'm not certain he could have done it.

I think it would come down to what strategy Loras used. Based on how people speak of his ability, I'm sure he had sufficient speed, strength, and stamina to try and use the "Bronn vs. Ser Vardis" or "Oberyn vs. Gregor," approach.

But here is the problem: Just based on what the spectators were saying of Bronn, while he battled Ser Vardis, it seems that manner of combat is looked down upon, or considered unbecoming of a knight. I feel like Loras, might be of a similar mind set. 

Loras is also hungry for glory, and lacks patience. He rushed at Dragonstone and look where it got him.

If Loras engaged Gregor and fought traditionally, the Mountain's strength would tell instantly.

The only thing that does give me hope for Loras is the trick he (allegedly) pulled in his joust with Gregor. Maybe, just maybe he'd have the sense to cut a few corners, hit below the belt, and put aside convention enough to allow him to win.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Loras is also hungry for glory, and lacks patience. He rushed at Dragonstone and look where it got him.

Which is all hearsay, possibly even deliberately false hearsay.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think so. Even Loras himself said in ASOS that Garlan was a better sword fighter than Loras when he was a better jouster. I believe that if it was Gregor against Loras, Loras would had died like Aegon.

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

Loras would've won on points, but in a fight to the death he wouldn't stand a chance against Gregor.

[BricksAndSparrows]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Which is all hearsay, possibly even deliberately false hearsay.

Which part is hearsay? That's interesting. Do you mean his injuries? Or the manner in which Dragonstone was taken?

I'd be really interested to hear more.

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Which part is hearsay? That's interesting. Do you mean his injuries? Or the manner in which Dragonstone was taken?

I'd be really interested to hear more.

You got to wonder who delivers the reports to Cersei... Auranne Waters, who took all of he Crown's fleet and departed. Then there's the fact that the Redwyne fleet was itching to defend the Reach against Euron. We learn of it through Cersei's POV who's scheming and plotting and making enemies by the dozen with each new chapter. Taena is from the Reach and probably spied on Cersei. People turn their back on her constantly - example Bronn. Cersei thinks she's smart and secretive and manipulatng everyone. But the game was on her, with her ending up a prisoner.   

[BricksAndSparrows]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

You got to wonder who delivers the reports to Cersei... Auranne Waters, who took all of he Crown's fleet and departed. Then there's the fact that the Redwyne fleet was itching to defend the Reach against Euron. We learn of it through Cersei's POV who's scheming and plotting and making enemies by the dozen with each new chapter. Taena is from the Reach and probably spied on Cersei. People turn their back on her constantly - example Bronn. Cersei thinks she's smart and secretive and manipulatng everyone. But the game was on her, with her ending up a prisoner.   

Yeah,,, but I believe Loras' condition is verified in other chapters. By other people. And Dragonstone was taken in a rapid, bloody battle.

But maybe I need to reread those chapters...

Still, Loras' hunger for glory is shown elsewhere. He wants Eddard Stark to send him after the Mountain, but Ned picks Beric.

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Yeah,,, but I believe Loras' condition is verified in other chapters. By other people. And Dragonstone was taken in a rapid, bloody battle.

But maybe I need to reread those chapters...

Still, Loras' hunger for glory is shown elsewhere. He wants Eddard Stark to send him after the Mountain, but Ned picks Beric.

No it isn't. The sole source for it is Auranne, even the fall of Dragonstone.

Myranda for example tells Sansa that RR was taken by the crown and that Dragonstone will soon follow. And yet, Auranne delivers the news of Dragonstone's fall before RR is taken. Auranne's whole story of all the injuries that Loras took and still fighting in the van are questionable. And then Kevan tells how Mace tells him that Loras searched for the dragon egss himself. After such injuries? To take a barely garissoned Dragonstone from a king that is freezing his ass of at the Wall, while Euron is heading for Oldtown and maybe even reports of the GC are coming in?

The sole source is Auranne.

[BricksAndSparrows]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No it isn't. The sole source for it is Auranne, even the fall of Dragonstone.

Myranda for example tells Sansa that RR was taken by the crown and that Dragonstone will soon follow. And yet, Auranne delivers the news of Dragonstone's fall before RR is taken.

That IS compelling. I do have to say, Myranda's misinformation isn't deal cincher for me. I remember watching an interview with GRRM, where he talks about intentionally putting things like this in his stories, because they happen in real life.

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 Auranne's whole story of all the injuries that Loras took and still fighting in the van are questionable. And then Kevan tells how Mace tells him that Loras searched for the dragon egss himself. After such injuries?

That does sound suspicious. But does that mean that Mace Tyrell is in on the conspiracy? Or are you saying that Mace Tyrell was relaying Aurane's report when he told Kevan about Loras' searching for Dragon eggs?

I'm not trying to be contrary, this is just the first time I've considered this so I'm curious. I'm totally going to reread this material now.

So the big question here is, why? And should probably be answered in a different thread.. but I'm really curious.

Just to make some comment about the topic, I will say that regardless of this theory, I'm still not completely convinced that Loras would best the Mountain in single combat. The Knight of the Flowers is no match for the Mountain's strength so Loras would need to fight in a fashion like Bronn or Oberyn, which I see as being frowned upon by a conventional knight of the realm.

[fenr1s]

47 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 And then Kevan tells how Mace tells him that Loras searched for the dragon egss himself. After such injuries?

Mace never says Loras searched himself, he says "my son's men have searched every inch...."

It also would be very risky for Aurane to lie that blatantly to Cersei when there are hundreds of men on those ships who would know the truth.

[BricksAndSparrows]

1 minute ago, fenr1s said:

Mace never says Loras searched himself, he says "my son's men have searched every inch...."

In which case, it is likely that Mace has another source for his info, other than Aurane.

All though the theory could still work if Mace & Co. were in on the hoax. But while that is possible, it's unlikely you could keep something like that secret, considering all the people who'd be involved.

Arianne Martell would tell you, just like Hotah told her:

"Someone talked.."

48 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The sole source is Auranne.

You gotta keep in mind, something like the story of Loras taking Dragonstone, would be something people would be talking about. Something that would have Ravens flying. I would assume people would at least voice some modicum of suspicion if they weren't hearing a peep from their own sources.

[sweetsunray]

22 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

All though the theory could still work if Mace & Co. were in on the hoax. But while that is possible, it's unlikely you could keep something like that secret, considering all the people who'd be involved.

Mace might be in it. The question is who could talk? If the Redwyne fleet sailed off to the Arbor with thousand crown soldiers, while Cersei ends up locked in a prison cell. Nobody is sent to Dragonstone so far to check on it. And if Dragonstone was not taken and nobody stormed the castle, and Stannis's man is still stewarding it, why would there even be ravens to KL. Meanwhile, the Crown has lost its own fleet. 

Aside from Auranne and Mace everybody else involved never returned to KL. Cersei's without Varys' little birds. And once she's taken into custody, a new council gets set up. Kevan's gone from KL early on and doesn't return until Cersei's imprisoned. All of KL itself is in a scandal mode over Marg and Cersei... so who cares about Dragonstone and a supposed Loras healing or dying there (except for Mace, who seems rather calm about that given the circumstances).

As for Miranda... Which information are they to receive the likeliest - that of sailors coming to the Vale, or those that get butchered by Mountain Clans between the RL and the Bloody Gate? If the Vale knows that RR fell, then surely they must have had news already from sailors that Dragonstone fell too. Seems like the sole report about Dragonstone that the Vale has are those of sailors who once saw the Redwyne fleet lying there.

[BricksAndSparrows]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Mace might be in it. The question is who could talk? If the Redwyne fleet sailed off to the Arbor with thousand crown soldiers, while Cersei ends up locked in a prison cell. Nobody is sent to Dragonstone so far to check on it. And if Dragonstone was not taken and nobody stormed the castle, and Stannis's man is still stewarding it, why would there even be ravens to KL. Meanwhile, the Crown has lost its own fleet. 

Aside from Auranne and Mace everybody else involved never returned to KL. Cersei's without Varys' little birds. And once she's taken into custody, a new council gets set up. Kevan's gone from KL early on and doesn't return until Cersei's imprisoned. All of KL itself is in a scandal mode over Marg and Cersei... so who cares about Dragonstone and a supposed Loras healing or dying there (except for Mace, who seems rather calm about that given the circumstances).

As for Miranda... Which information are they to receive the likeliest - that of sailors coming to the Vale, or those that get butchered by Mountain Clans between the RL and the Bloody Gate? If the Vale knows that RR fell, then surely they must have had news already from sailors that Dragonstone fell too. Seems like the sole report about Dragonstone that the Vale has are those of sailors who once saw the Redwyne fleet lying there.

This is all very interesting...

Okay, so what do you msay to @fenr1s quotation of Mace Tyrell. He had word that Loras' men searched for the eggs and reported back? Mace is in on it?

Okay, so I at least want to hear your theory? Why would Aurane and Mace conspire to lie like this? They can't sit on this forever and the truth could potentially come out ANY second?

[DigUpHerBones]

do not see how Loras could EVER penetrate The Mountains armor...

Oberyn, with the spear, was able to "shoot the gaps" in the armor, fairly easily.

Loras would swing and swing and swing...nothing would happen.

All The Mountain needs to do is make contact ONCE.

I am shocked this is even a conversation?!

GRRM is talking about pure skill, and in that case, Loras is superior to The Mountain.  

Too bad skill does not mean shit vs a 7'10 500lb beast.

 

 

[BricksAndSparrows]

23 minutes ago, DigUpHerBones said:

Too bad skill does not mean shit vs a 7'10 500lb beast.

If that was true, than NO one would have beat the Mountain. Sandor fought him that very day. The Mountain was brought down. It was a tremendous feat, but there are others that could do it.

I tend to think Loras would not win, but stranger things have happened.

[sweetsunray]

22 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

This is all very interesting...

Okay, so what do you msay to @fenr1s quotation of Mace Tyrell. He had word that Loras' men searched for the eggs and reported back? Mace is in on it?

Okay, so I at least want to hear your theory? Why would Aurane and Mace conspire to lie like this? They can't sit on this forever and the truth could potentially come out ANY second?

Well, Mace himself was sent to besiege Storm's End and he returns to KL when Marg ends up arrested. A messenger could have been sent to him, and thus only Mace knows. What is the purpose of lying about "they searched and there's no riches at Dragonstone"? It aims to dissuade anyone from even bothering to go to Dragonstone - Mace presents it as just some stupid empty rock at some island. Who wants to be lord of that?

Mace certainly has reasons to conspire after Marg's and Cersei's arrest. Tommen has become a liability and then there's news about this Aegon. It will take years and years before Tommen will be king on his own, without requiring a regent. Hmmmm?

Why Auranne is in on this. I don't know. We only have some type of report that he sailed off to Stepstones. As for his men on board the ships. Would they even know what Auranne told Cersei? They were younger men who weren't even Blackwater veterans.

As for the truth coming out... Kevan's dead. Pycelle is dead. And it looks like possibly the Tyrells may be implicated anyway for the murders by Cersei. Seems like the appropraite time for the lie to come out, no?

 

[desire]

On 21/07/2016 at 10:20 AM, Rise said:

Most likely because mountain used sword, if he had used mace or war hammer he would have died most likely one blow.

Lol I guess Ser raymund darry and his horse where just unlucky 

[House Beaudreau]

17 hours ago, devilish said:

The Mountain is a bruiser. He's a giant whose freaky strong, he's fast for his size and he's been given knight training. That means that a common guy (low/mid tier sellsword, hedge knights, peasants) stand no chance against him.

The typical nobleman's son will also struggle against the Mountain. They may have superior training to him (he's Tywin's bruiser not son) but they are used to be treated like nobility ie with trainers who would probably lose their lives if they hurt them too much. The Mountain won't treat them with kiddie gloves. He will go full frontal using his giant stature and the fear factor to hack them into pieces.

The only people I can think of who stand a good chance of beating him are noblemen who are experienced to actual fighting (ie not Loras). The Mountain may be tough but as said he's been given the training of a bruiser not that of a Lord Paramount's son and had spent most of his life hacking peasants. We've seen it already how he got exposed against Oberyn Martell and he would probably struggle against a Prime Selmy, Sir Arthur Dayne or a prime Robert Baratheon. In today's world he would better watch out against Brienne, his own brother and Gerold Dayne, 

 

 

No doubt about anything here, I just think that you're discounting some people that aren't castle train warriors. I think fight experience counts for a lot in this world. Saying that no low/mid sellsword or hedge knights stand a chance I think is a little unfair. By this logic Bronn would never have been about to defeat Ser Vardis Egen who was a high born knight but from a very minor house like Clegane and not old that was also captain of the guards in the Eyrie which means he had probably show some real skill at arms in Tourneys/battle and in the Yard. But Bronn kills him easily. Granted Bronn is not your average sellsword but still. I think that there is a point to be made going back to my original post about what Barristan said. Anyone(within reason) can defeat Anyone else(within reason) and that peoples perception about certain fighters is all hype. 

Some examples and scenarios of this are 

1. Robert defeating Rhaegar. Probably no one at the time thought that Rhaegar would lose to anyone in single combat except for maybe to  Ser Arthur Dayne or Ser Barristan. But Robert's Fury won that day, a different day maybe a different result. 

2. Brienne holding her own against Jamie. Granted Jamie had been locked in a dungeon for a year but still according to everyone(including Jamie) he should have easily defeated Brienne. But she will never be considered one of the greatest fighter cause thats the point. 

3. That being said, Rorge gives Brienne a good challenge and Biter gets the jump on her and really fucks her up. Rorge is defeated by Brienne but not right away, meaning one lucky shot or a slip in the mud and Rorge the nobody defeats Brienne of Tarth. 

4. Old man Selmy easily defeat Khrazz one of the most furious pit fighter. 

Think about Mance and Quorin Halfhand, I fell like either of these guys stands a chance against just about anyone.  

[Rob Storm]

I think the main reason that the Mountain would kill Loras in this situation is in fact the situation.  Hundreds of viewers, Loras would have worked hard to fight honorably with that many in attendance.  Had the two met in the middle of a battle in a 1 v 1 I would give Loras a much better chance to win.   

We saw Loras fight somewhat dishonorably against his fellow Kingsguard later in the story and seemed to be very capable.  

[devilish]

4 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

No doubt about anything here, I just think that you're discounting some people that aren't castle train warriors. I think fight experience counts for a lot in this world. Saying that no low/mid sellsword or hedge knights stand a chance I think is a little unfair. By this logic Bronn would never have been about to defeat Ser Vardis Egen who was a high born knight but from a very minor house like Clegane and not old that was also captain of the guards in the Eyrie which means he had probably show some real skill at arms in Tourneys/battle and in the Yard. But Bronn kills him easily. Granted Bronn is not your average sellsword but still. I think that there is a point to be made going back to my original post about what Barristan said. Anyone(within reason) can defeat Anyone else(within reason) and that peoples perception about certain fighters is all hype. 

Some examples and scenarios of this are 

1. Robert defeating Rhaegar. Probably no one at the time thought that Rhaegar would lose to anyone in single combat except for maybe to  Ser Arthur Dayne or Ser Barristan. But Robert's Fury won that day, a different day maybe a different result. 

2. Brienne holding her own against Jamie. Granted Jamie had been locked in a dungeon for a year but still according to everyone(including Jamie) he should have easily defeated Brienne. But she will never be considered one of the greatest fighter cause thats the point. 

3. That being said, Rorge gives Brienne a good challenge and Biter gets the jump on her and really fucks her up. Rorge is defeated by Brienne but not right away, meaning one lucky shot or a slip in the mud and Rorge the nobody defeats Brienne of Tarth. 

4. Old man Selmy easily defeat Khrazz one of the most furious pit fighter. 

Think about Mance and Quorin Halfhand, I fell like either of these guys stands a chance against just about anyone.  

First of all I agree completely with Barristan's line of thought. Anyone can kill anybody under the right condition. However we're talking about probabilities here. 

The Mountain is not Vardis Egen. Vardis Egen was relatively old when he faced Bronn and by the time he met the sellsword he had spent years acting like a glorified sentry man to Jon Arryn. I doubt that Jon Arryn had to fight off bloodthirsty fighers as hand of the king, which means that Vardis hasn't actually encountered some real fighting for a long long time. Also Bronn is a town rat, something Vardis doesn't really have alot of experience against. That played in Bronn's favour.

The Mountain on the other hand is Tywin's killer. He's freaky big and he's extremely violent. Considering that even Lannisters protection has its limits then we expect this guy to quench his assassin instinct on common people ie peasants, sellswords, hedge knights ie anyone who can wield a sword and won't be missed by any top lord if Gregor cuts him in half. That gives him plenty of experience  against these sort of people.  As you said Bronn is not the average sellsword else he wouldn't live that long. However I also suspect that he did lived that long because he avoided the likes of Gregor. 

However the Mountain does have weaknesses. Considering his killer instinct I am confident that Tywin would make sure that his own heir will learn a trick or two that the Mountain doesn't know, just in case Gregor become feral. Other Lord Paramount and Lords wouldn't restrict training to their kids either and that would put the Mountain in a slight disadvantage (we've seen Oberyn outskilling Gregor). Having said that, most Lord's children would never fight against a freak of nature like Gregor and are used to sparring rather then actual fighting. Which would put them in a serious disadvantage against the Mountain, a weakness that a high born who had fought in countless wars shouldn't have. 

Therefore if I have to choose someone to fight the Mountain then I would choose a person whose

a- highborn 
b- he's extremely good with the sword/warhammer 
c- he's experienced in actual warfare.
d- he's experienced in fighting with someone with full plate armour
e- he's in his prime
f- he's freaky big/strong or a child prodigy
g- he's not emotionally compromised

Prime Robert, Arthur Dayne, the Greatjon, Jamie and Selmy have all 7.  Oberyn had six (a-f). The Hound (b-f) and Brienne (a-e) have five. The halfhand (b,c,d,f) and Bronn have four (b,c,d,e)