Edric Dayne, Why aren't we talking about him?

[tugela]

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It is important to remember Ned Dayne wasn't born and only has second hand knowledge, and that I believe much of it has come from Allyria who it also seems likely is quite young, too young to have been aware of the goings on in 282. (Infact many believe she is Brandon & Ashara's daughter whom Barristan believes was stillborn.)

The tale is unlikely due to the nature of it painting Ned Stark as a cad. 

I think the Dayne's named Ned Dayne for Ned Stark to honour him having not only returned Dawn but my own personal theory is he also returned Gerold Dayne, who would have been around 12 himself and I think was likely a squire at the ToJ. It bugged me for years that House Dayne named their heir Ned. I too felt the returning of a sword not enough to warrant such honour.  But when I pieced together the idea Darkstar was in fact at the ToJ, and at last it made sense that they'd honour Ned for his act of mercy in sparing the boy and for returning Dawn. 

Wylla too was allowed to nurse Jon, and she was/is and employee of House Dayne. They gave permission for her to help Eddard. Which again speaks of a family not holding Arthur's death against the man. If there was a person to vouch for Ned's behaviour and the circumstances of Arthur's death it makes more sense that they allowed him her services. 

 

A more likely explanation is that they were keeping mutual secrets. As you may (or not) know, there is another theory that Daenerys is the child of Rhaegar and Ashara. That would make her and Jon siblings, and consequently Ned and the Daynes would have common purpose and a relationship through the children.

I think that is the only reasonable explanation for the cosy relationship between them. There has to be a family connection otherwise you would expect them to be hostile to Ned for all the heartache he brought them.

[Lord Lannister]

The exact relationship between the Starks and the Daynes is still highly ambiguous. Ned Stark killed Arthur Dayne but returned Dawn. Some Stark dishonored Ashara to the point of comitting suicide. A Dayne house servant nurses Jon Snow as a child. Ned Stark and Edric Dayne both claim Wylla is Snow's mother. All these facts seem to raise more questions than they answer all wrapped around the R+L=J mystery.

Oddly enough, the biggest question I always had about the Tower of Joy incident is why did Ned bury Arthur there rather than bring his body back to Starfall. It wasn't as if it was out of his way, given he went there anyways to return Dawn, and he had plenty of riderless horses to carry the burden.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

35 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

The exact relationship between the Starks and the Daynes is still highly ambiguous. Ned Stark killed Arthur Dayne but returned Dawn. Some Stark dishonored Ashara to the point of comitting suicide. A Dayne house servant nurses Jon Snow as a child. Ned Stark and Edric Dayne both claim Wylla is Snow's mother. All these facts seem to raise more questions than they answer all wrapped around the R+L=J mystery.

Oddly enough, the biggest question I always had about the Tower of Joy incident is why did Ned bury Arthur there rather than bring his body back to Starfall. It wasn't as if it was out of his way, given he went there anyways to return Dawn, and he had plenty of riderless horses to carry the burden.

I personally think that Arthur Dayne may have survived,  and got into hiding for some reason. Or one of the other KG. I don't believe all 3 of the KG survived,  but one or 2 might have. The whole scene is a little weird,  and I personally think the Red Door is in Dorne makes some sense,  although I can't figure out how that would've worked logistically,  and why Viserys never said anything about it. 

I do think Dany isn't exactly who she thinks she is,  but I also can't figure out exactly who is who's child, and why Dany would've ended up with Viserys. 

[House Beaudreau]

3 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I personally think that Arthur Dayne may have survived,  and got into hiding for some reason. Or one of the other KG. I don't believe all 3 of the KG survived,  but one or 2 might have. The whole scene is a little weird,  and I personally think the Red Door is in Dorne makes some sense,  although I can't figure out how that would've worked logistically,  and why Viserys never said anything about it. 

I do think Dany isn't exactly who she thinks she is,  but I also can't figure out exactly who is who's child, and why Dany would've ended up with Viserys. 

Arthur Dayne loses a hand and become Qhorin Halfhand?

[Ygrain]

19 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

As Edric says they are "milk brothers" does this put them a few months maybe at most a year and a half apart? Were they nursed at the same time? Or is Edric Arya's age and just sucked on the same test. Surely they had to have been nursed at the exact same time for them to be milk brothers right? 

 

16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 Catelyn tells us that Eddard brought Jon and Wylla to Winterfell. 

She doesn't. She, or anyone else, never mentions the wetnurse's name. 

9 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Oddly enough, the biggest question I always had about the Tower of Joy incident is why did Ned bury Arthur there rather than bring his body back to Starfall. It wasn't as if it was out of his way, given he went there anyways to return Dawn, and he had plenty of riderless horses to carry the burden.

It was at least several days's ride. In warm climate. Need I continue?

8 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I personally think that Arthur Dayne may have survived,  and got into hiding for some reason. Or one of the other KG. I don't believe all 3 of the KG survived,  but one or 2 might have. The whole scene is a little weird,  and I personally think the Red Door is in Dorne makes some sense,  although I can't figure out how that would've worked logistically,  and why Viserys never said anything about it. 

GRRM confirmed that Ned and HR were the only two men to leave ToJ. No Arthur, sorry. A bunch of female servants, midwives, wetnurses, fancy girls, babies and elephants quite comfortably, but no adult human owner of an Y chromosome. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

16 hours ago, Masha said:

I have been thinking about Gerald Dayne too. 

I think he knows about R+L=J, but I didn't even think to assume he might have been there at TOJ. 

Why did House Dayne disown him?  IF he was there at TOJ or knew about R+L=J, he was probably trying constantly to push Dayne's to proclaim for Jon and they forbid him to talk about it or even get close to the North...

 

House Dayne have not as far as I am aware disowned Gerold.  He belongs to a cadet branch and calls Arthur his cousin when talking with Myrcella. So I assumed he was indeed cousin to the main branch. 

He was the right sort of age during the rebellion to be squiring for someone. To me the oddly worded seemingly meaningless snippets of conversation he has during the chapter where he cuts Myrcella's ear off point to him having been there. He talks of name sakes, and indicates he chooses to go by Darkstar as he dislikes his own. He recalls Garred's name sake was not the hero people remember him as. Which I think tells us Gerold dislikes his own namesake, whom we assume to be Hightower. And to dislike you must have met. There is a bunch of talk about Vipers and venom, which  suspiciously mirrors a later discussion between Arrianne & Doran, and which from that discussion we learn is about Oberyn and Doran. For Darkstar to be refrencing the two men in the way he does in his talk of snakes in the grass having to be wary of him, indicates he has something on the Martells. Something he could hurt them with. And he talks of Arthur as though he knows something we don't in regard to the mans prowess and Dawn itself. He sounds like a boy who had his hero knocked down in front of him to me. 

And of course Doran considers him the most dangerous man in Dorne. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

10 hours ago, tugela said:

A more likely explanation is that they were keeping mutual secrets. As you may (or not) know, there is another theory that Daenerys is the child of Rhaegar and Ashara. That would make her and Jon siblings, and consequently Ned and the Daynes would have common purpose and a relationship through the children.

I think that is the only reasonable explanation for the cosy relationship between them. There has to be a family connection otherwise you would expect them to be hostile to Ned for all the heartache he brought them.

I don't believe in ANY alternative parents for Dany theories.  They are all impossible timeline wise and improbable from a narrative point of view. 

For instance how can Rhaegar and Ashara have been Dany's parents? there is no in text hints or clues that they were even in the same place at the right time, let alone that they had any feelings or desires for each other.  You could claim she is the child of some lady and Stannis for all the in text evidence there is for this theory. 

There is an explanation though, Brandon was likely the father of Ashara's actual baby, who was said to have been stillborn. Now Brandon did the wrong thing by Ashara, sure. But if Ned returned unharmed their cousin; as I suspect, then he has shown himself to be a more honourable man. He returns the sword and the boy, and young Gerold backs him up as to the nature of Arthur's death.assuring them of it having been a honourable way to go. Vouches for the parentage of the baby. And  everyone swears to keep the Targaryen heir safe by hiding his true identity.  

[tugela]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

I don't believe in ANY alternative parents for Dany theories.  They are all impossible timeline wise and improbable from a narrative point of view. 

For instance how can Rhaegar and Ashara have been Dany's parents? there is no in text hints or clues that they were even in the same place at the right time, let alone that they had any feelings or desires for each other.  You could claim she is the child of some lady and Stannis for all the in text evidence there is for this theory. 

There is an explanation though, Brandon was likely the father of Ashara's actual baby, who was said to have been stillborn. Now Brandon did the wrong thing by Ashara, sure. But if Ned returned unharmed their cousin; as I suspect, then he has shown himself to be a more honourable man. He returns the sword and the boy, and young Gerold backs him up as to the nature of Arthur's death.assuring them of it having been a honourable way to go. Vouches for the parentage of the baby. And  everyone swears to keep the Targaryen heir safe by hiding his true identity.  

Why impossible? Daenerys was born at approximately the same time as Jon and Ashara's daughter, so she could be Ashara's daughter.

It is impossible for Brandon to be the father of Ashara's daughter. She had gave birth a few weeks before she supposedly threw herself from the tower, and that happened just after Ned arrived at Starfall. It would have taken a few weeks to get to Starfall after ToJ, so that means that her child is about the same age as Jon, and consequently was conceived at around the same time. But, if Lyanna is Jon's mother, then it means that Ashara conceived AFTER Lyanna was abducted. Lyanna was abducted a year before giving birth. Brandon was already dead when the Ashara conceived, and consequently he cannot be the father. Neither can Ned, because he would have been at the Vale, then Winterfell, and finally at war during that period. The father of Ashara's child has to be someone else who isn't a Stark

Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting, and Elia was Rhaegar's wife. They would have been in frequent contact with each other.

Ned would have no reason to harm the squires since the war was already over at that point. Honor in that respect was a non issue and would not have colored the Dayne's opinion of Ned. While they might have thanked him for returning the sword, they would not have been happy about Arthur's death or Ashara's death, both of which can be directly attributed to Ned's actions. In any event, Gerold was not a direct member of the ruling family of Daynes, so why would Lord Dayne (Edric's father) care about him? He was probably one of their cousins.

The only reasonable explanation for their attitude is that there was a family connection and common interest between the two houses in the form of Jon and Daenerys being siblings with Rhaegar as the father.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

54 minutes ago, tugela said:

Why impossible? Daenerys was born at approximately the same time as Jon and Ashara's daughter, so she could be Ashara's daughter.

It is impossible for Brandon to be the father of Ashara's daughter. She had gave birth a few weeks before she supposedly threw herself from the tower, and that happened just after Ned arrived at Starfall. It would have taken a few weeks to get to Starfall after ToJ, so that means that her child is about the same age as Jon, and consequently was conceived at around the same time. But, if Lyanna is Jon's mother, then it means that Ashara conceived AFTER Lyanna was abducted. Lyanna was abducted a year before giving birth. Brandon was already dead when the Ashara conceived, and consequently he cannot be the father. Neither can Ned, because he would have been at the Vale, then Winterfell, and finally at war during that period. The father of Ashara's child has to be someone else who isn't a Stark

Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting, and Elia was Rhaegar's wife. They would have been in frequent contact with each other.

Ned would have no reason to harm the squires since the war was already over at that point. Honor in that respect was a non issue and would not have colored the Dayne's opinion of Ned. While they might have thanked him for returning the sword, they would not have been happy about Arthur's death or Ashara's death, both of which can be directly attributed to Ned's actions. In any event, Gerold was not a direct member of the ruling family of Daynes, so why would Lord Dayne (Edric's father) care about him? He was probably one of their cousins.

The only reasonable explanation for their attitude is that there was a family connection and common interest between the two houses in the form of Jon and Daenerys being siblings with Rhaegar as the father.

You've got the timeline wrong, Ashara's daughter would have been born well before Jon. Ashara was supposedly "dishonoured" at the tourney of Harrenhall, which took place at least 9 months before Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna, we learn in the world book that Rhaegar set out on new years day shortly after Aegon's birth to find Lyanna. This coupled with the info we have of the Tourney and Elia's previous confinement with Rhaenys tells us she was either not yet but soon to be expecting the prince at the tourney or in the very earliest stages of pregnancy. Putting the tourney in the first quarter of that year. so Ashara had her baby at around the same time Elia had hers. 

Add in the SSM telling us Dany is 8-9 months ish younger than Jon, and no way is she the Harrenhall baby. 

She didn't give birth a few weeks before supposedly throwing herself from the tower, the timeline does not work for that to be the case. Barristan is a primary witness to the events of the Tourney & after in KL, he knows Ashara fell pregnant at the Tourney. He also tells us she threw herself from the tower in grief shortly after the end of the war. grief for her dead lover, child and brother we are told. Basically Arthur's loss was one too many on top of her already experienced bereavements. It seems that Ashara's suicide was quite some time after her delivery. Which is one of the things which just don't add up and hint that the story is off somewhere.  Such as that she didn't kill herself at all, and that her parents (or perhaps brother, the timeline for the Dayne inheritance is unknown) had to fabricate a story to explain her sudden disappearance. Whatever caused that though I don't have a theory regarding. Except that possibly Allyria is her daughter not sister and she just couldn't stomach watching her child being raised by her mum as her own.Which is quite a common issue in these scenario's. 

 

You are choosing to ignore the fact that IF I am correct and Gerold was a squire, that Ned risks Jon's life by not simply slaughtering all witnesses to his birth. In which case Lord Dayne would see the tremendous act of faith and humanity Ned performed in sparing the child. 

Gerold can explain that Arthur's death was one of honour, when your son takes a white cloak, I am afraid you kinda have to accept he might die in the line of duty. If the KG were indeed preventing Ned from taking his sister and her son away because that boy was the heir to the IT in their view, then Ned was left with no choice but to fight them, it was that or allow his nephew to be used as a figure head in an already doomed conflict. One which would see the infant killed, surely. 

So Arthur died carrying out his sworn oath and there is honour in that, and Ned killed him in an act of desperate compassion for his nephew, whose life would have been forfeit had Hightower, Whent & Dayne carried out their futile attempt at Targaryen restoration using Rhaegar's last son as a rallying point for the desimated loyalist army.

And as I said I doubt Ashara is even dead, let alone her death having anything to do with Ned. Because Brandon is her daughter's father, he got her up the duff at the Tourney, and she gave birth 9 ish months later, with Brandon dying at KL probably a couple of months later. Her disappearance isn't down to Ned in anyway. 

Your "Only reasonable" explanation doesn't even make sense. There are other reasonable explanations, and the honour of calling the heir Ned needs better explanation than him being Uncle to their Niece's half brother. (Edric Dayne is of course the son of Ashara's oldest brother not her parents)

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

She doesn't. She, or anyone else, never mentions the wetnurse's name. 

It was at least several days's ride. In warm climate. Need I continue?

GRRM confirmed that Ned and HR were the only two men to leave ToJ. No Arthur, sorry. A bunch of female servants, midwives, wetnurses, fancy girls, babies and elephants quite comfortably, but no adult human owner of an Y chromosome. 

True, but since I can't paint unless it's by numbers, I'm used to following the pattern. We are told that Wylla was Jon's wetnurse. We are told that Jon's wetnurse traveled to Winterfell. And we are told Wylla was Jon's mum, which we know to be false. When I color in those numbers I get Wylla traveling to Winterfell and giving Eddard the basis for his lie. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

True, but since I can't paint unless it's by numbers, I'm used to following the pattern. We are told that Wylla was Jon's wetnurse.

Or just one of his wetnurses.

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

We are told that Jon's wetnurse traveled to Winterfell. And we are told Wylla was Jon's mum, which we know to be false. When I color in those numbers I get Wylla traveling to Winterfell and giving Eddard the basis for his lie. 

When Ned Dayne says "She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born", for me it sounds as if she's still in Starfall. It's "she has served us for years", not "she served us" nor "she had served us".

[rhoynestar]

Just to put a bit of perspective on the Dayne family, since this thread is really about Edric Dayne:

Aside from discussion of R+L=J and Ashara's fate, we do have some idea of their Dayne family and their particular values. The Daynes seem to remarkably value chivalry and knightly honor, even among the feudal houses of Westeros. They are an ancient family of storied knights who base much of their pride on their ancestral sword, Dawn, which is wrapped up in the family's legend of Starfall. They also do not allow inheritance of Dawn to just eldest sons of the name -- a family member has to win it through knightly merit, presumably skill at swordfighting and honorable qualities befitting the name, and is given the title "Sword of the Morning." Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning of his generation, was a younger son, and the title is currently dormant because no one has won it yet, including Edric. Basically they are the only family who have a separate title for exemplary knights. 

They also allow Edric, who is hereditary eldest son and current Lord of Starfall, to continue to wander the Riverlands as an outlaw squire for Beric Dondarrion. This is hardly to their benefit -- can you imagine Tywin Lannister, for example, lettting a 12-year-old Jaime remain squire for a man who turned outlaw and is now one of the most hunted men in the entirety of Westeros? He'd pull his son and heir out of service in two seconds. Since Edric's parents are dead maybe it's just lack of oversight, but surely some distant male relative would intervene. It seems the Daynes place particular value on the bonds of chivalry and honor -- once you squire for a man you are bound to allegiance, even if he's on the wrong side of politics.

We know Ned Stark placed a good deal of value on chivalry and honor as well. It's possible the Daynes were just predisposed to respect and like Ned Stark, because they thought his actions fit their ideas of knightly behavior. He fights and kills Arthur in a fair fight, so no hard feelings there. He returns their sword, which is honorable. If he didn't get Ashara pregnant, then either her feelings for Ned are one-sided or she's involved with someone else, and Ned taking the fall for her suicide (real or not) in the public rumor mill and not telling anyone about her real story just to clear his name is also nice and honorable. So the Daynes like him, help him cover up the secret of his sister's baby via Wylla, and are well-disposed to the Starks so Edric gets the vibe too.

 

 

 

 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

True, but since I can't paint unless it's by numbers, I'm used to following the pattern. We are told that Wylla was Jon's wetnurse. We are told that Jon's wetnurse traveled to Winterfell. And we are told Wylla was Jon's mum, which we know to be false. When I color in those numbers I get Wylla traveling to Winterfell and giving Eddard the basis for his lie. 

Disagree with the bolded. There is no connection between Winterfell and the Daynes. Now, if you said Starfall, I'd very much agree - Ned comes with Wylla and a baby, and claims the baby as his and Wylla his mother.

If I was Ned, though, I wouldn't want the woman who at some point poises as Jon's mother come to my home where my lady wife lives because maintaining the story there would be gross, telling a different story would be risky, and having another person knowing the truth about Jon at the place where everyone is bound to pry what she knows is yet another risk. IMHO, it would be best to leave Wylla at Starfall (if the estimates about Alyria are right, then she would have a job there) and get another nurse who doesn't know a shit about Jon and doesn't care. Even better, switch nurses several times so that the one who eventually arrives in Winterfell has zero idea where the baby might have hailed from.

4 hours ago, rhoynestar said:

We know Ned Stark placed a good deal of value on chivalry and honor as well. It's possible the Daynes were just predisposed to respect and like Ned Stark, because they thought his actions fit their ideas of knightly behavior. He fights and kills Arthur in a fair fight, so no hard feelings there. He returns their sword, which is honorable. If he didn't get Ashara pregnant, then either her feelings for Ned are one-sided or she's involved with someone else, and Ned taking the fall for her suicide (real or not) in the public rumor mill and not telling anyone about her real story just to clear his name is also nice and honorable. So the Daynes like him, help him cover up the secret of his sister's baby via Wylla, and are well-disposed to the Starks so Edric gets the vibe too.

Mutual respect on the basis of shared codes of honour is something I can see very well, too.

[tugela]

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You've got the timeline wrong, Ashara's daughter would have been born well before Jon. Ashara was supposedly "dishonoured" at the tourney of Harrenhall, which took place at least 9 months before Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna, we learn in the world book that Rhaegar set out on new years day shortly after Aegon's birth to find Lyanna. This coupled with the info we have of the Tourney and Elia's previous confinement with Rhaenys tells us she was either not yet but soon to be expecting the prince at the tourney or in the very earliest stages of pregnancy. Putting the tourney in the first quarter of that year. so Ashara had her baby at around the same time Elia had hers. 

Add in the SSM telling us Dany is 8-9 months ish younger than Jon, and no way is she the Harrenhall baby. 

She didn't give birth a few weeks before supposedly throwing herself from the tower, the timeline does not work for that to be the case. Barristan is a primary witness to the events of the Tourney & after in KL, he knows Ashara fell pregnant at the Tourney. He also tells us she threw herself from the tower in grief shortly after the end of the war. grief for her dead lover, child and brother we are told. Basically Arthur's loss was one too many on top of her already experienced bereavements. It seems that Ashara's suicide was quite some time after her delivery. Which is one of the things which just don't add up and hint that the story is off somewhere.  Such as that she didn't kill herself at all, and that her parents (or perhaps brother, the timeline for the Dayne inheritance is unknown) had to fabricate a story to explain her sudden disappearance. Whatever caused that though I don't have a theory regarding. Except that possibly Allyria is her daughter not sister and she just couldn't stomach watching her child being raised by her mum as her own.Which is quite a common issue in these scenario's. 

 

You are choosing to ignore the fact that IF I am correct and Gerold was a squire, that Ned risks Jon's life by not simply slaughtering all witnesses to his birth. In which case Lord Dayne would see the tremendous act of faith and humanity Ned performed in sparing the child. 

Gerold can explain that Arthur's death was one of honour, when your son takes a white cloak, I am afraid you kinda have to accept he might die in the line of duty. If the KG were indeed preventing Ned from taking his sister and her son away because that boy was the heir to the IT in their view, then Ned was left with no choice but to fight them, it was that or allow his nephew to be used as a figure head in an already doomed conflict. One which would see the infant killed, surely. 

So Arthur died carrying out his sworn oath and there is honour in that, and Ned killed him in an act of desperate compassion for his nephew, whose life would have been forfeit had Hightower, Whent & Dayne carried out their futile attempt at Targaryen restoration using Rhaegar's last son as a rallying point for the desimated loyalist army.

And as I said I doubt Ashara is even dead, let alone her death having anything to do with Ned. Because Brandon is her daughter's father, he got her up the duff at the Tourney, and she gave birth 9 ish months later, with Brandon dying at KL probably a couple of months later. Her disappearance isn't down to Ned in anyway. 

Your "Only reasonable" explanation doesn't even make sense. There are other reasonable explanations, and the honour of calling the heir Ned needs better explanation than him being Uncle to their Niece's half brother. (Edric Dayne is of course the son of Ashara's oldest brother not her parents)

Ashara gave birth a few weeks before she supposedly jumped out the tower, and if she was impregnated at Harrenhall then she jumped out the tower before Lyanna was even kidnapped. We know that did not happen because Ned returned Dawn to her after ToJ. So, she did NOT get pregnant at Harrenhal. Maybe someone there dishonored her, but that was not the source of her pregnancy.

It is impossible for Daenerys to be 9 months younger than Jon, If we assume that Ned rescued Lyanna in her "bed of blood" after giving birth to Jon. The reason for this is that after Aerys was killed Ned was sent to relieve the siege at Storm's End. He then went to find the ToJ. Probably all of that would have taken at least a month after Aerys was killed. Stannis on the other hand immediately left Storms end to take Dragonstone, but by the time he got there Rhaella had given birth and the children were gone. Now, assuming you are correct and Daenerys is 9 months younger than Jon, that means she was born about 10 months after Aerys died. See the problem? Stannis would have been gathering his forces for the assault while Jon was off to ToJ. and by the time he got there Rhaella had already given birth and the children removed. That means that Jon and Daenaerys were born at around the same time, together with Asharas daughter and Robb (and Meera as well, btw) if we believe the accounts given in the book.

Regarding your idea that the Daynes were super impressed by Ned not killing their cousin, might I be so bold as to point out that Ashara was so impressed that she supposedly threw herself from a tower. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Ned don't you think? You would have to think that the rest of the Daynes would have similar feelings about Ned if that was the case. But instead they are BFF. That means that something else was going on, and the stories that have been told are not true.

Not only that we can see from all of the other Westeros family reactions when close relative is killed how they feel about it. Lady Dustin for example was so impressed by Ned's chivalry that she wants to feed him to her hounds.

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Or just one of his wetnurses.

When Ned Dayne says "She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born", for me it sounds as if she's still in Starfall. It's "she has served us for years", not "she served us" nor "she had served us".

I think we should assume that Wylla has been in service to House Dune for years. I think we can also assume that House Dayne allowed Wylla to nurse Jon until he was weaned at Winterfell. At least that’s what I see when I color in the numbers. You might see something different, just make sure you're not adding numbers that aren't there. 

[tugela]

4 hours ago, rhoynestar said:

Just to put a bit of perspective on the Dayne family, since this thread is really about Edric Dayne:

Aside from discussion of R+L=J and Ashara's fate, we do have some idea of their Dayne family and their particular values. The Daynes seem to remarkably value chivalry and knightly honor, even among the feudal houses of Westeros. They are an ancient family of storied knights who base much of their pride on their ancestral sword, Dawn, which is wrapped up in the family's legend of Starfall. They also do not allow inheritance of Dawn to just eldest sons of the name -- a family member has to win it through knightly merit, presumably skill at swordfighting and honorable qualities befitting the name, and is given the title "Sword of the Morning." Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning of his generation, was a younger son, and the title is currently dormant because no one has won it yet, including Edric. Basically they are the only family who have a separate title for exemplary knights. 

They also allow Edric, who is hereditary eldest son and current Lord of Starfall, to continue to wander the Riverlands as an outlaw squire for Beric Dondarrion. This is hardly to their benefit -- can you imagine Tywin Lannister, for example, lettting a 12-year-old Jaime remain squire for a man who turned outlaw and is now one of the most hunted men in the entirety of Westeros? He'd pull his son and heir out of service in two seconds. Since Edric's parents are dead maybe it's just lack of oversight, but surely some distant male relative would intervene. It seems the Daynes place particular value on the bonds of chivalry and honor -- once you squire for a man you are bound to allegiance, even if he's on the wrong side of politics.

We know Ned Stark placed a good deal of value on chivalry and honor as well. It's possible the Daynes were just predisposed to respect and like Ned Stark, because they thought his actions fit their ideas of knightly behavior. He fights and kills Arthur in a fair fight, so no hard feelings there. He returns their sword, which is honorable. If he didn't get Ashara pregnant, then either her feelings for Ned are one-sided or she's involved with someone else, and Ned taking the fall for her suicide (real or not) in the public rumor mill and not telling anyone about her real story just to clear his name is also nice and honorable. So the Daynes like him, help him cover up the secret of his sister's baby via Wylla, and are well-disposed to the Starks so Edric gets the vibe too.

 

 

 

 

At the time Edric squired for Dondarrion (who was a relative by marriage IIRC) he was not an outlaw, but had been sent on a quest by the hand to bring Clegane to justice. After that the war broke out and the group took on the role of protecting refugees fleeing from the fighting. They did not really become outlaws until Lady Stoneheart took over. Many of the brothers left the group at that point over disagreements with her methods. I am guessing Edric left them at that point.

It is pretty obvious that the story being told in public did not happen because while the Daynes might have respected Ned, they would not have been showing him so much familiarity that he was almost one of the family. The only way for that to happen is if there actually WAS a family bond. The most reasonable scenario to maintain the honor that was so important for both families is for Lyanna and Ashara's children to be siblings. That would give them a family link, and more importantly a common secret to be kept that satisfied both houses sense of honor. Because of that honor requirement, it would have been impossible for that to be met if there was a direct common link (such as Jon being the child of a Stark and a Dayne) through a bastard child. So the link has to be indirect, and having children with Rhaegar as the father, with Lyanna and Ashara as the mothers, children who have to be protected from Roberts wrath, would satisfy that requirement for chivalric honor. It is the noble sacrifice for family, no other scenario would provide that.

[Lost Melnibonean]

37 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Disagree with the bolded. There is no connection between Winterfell and the Daynes. Now, if you said Starfall, I'd very much agree - Ned comes with Wylla and a baby, and claims the baby as his and Wylla his mother.

If I was Ned, though, I wouldn't want the woman who at some point poises as Jon's mother come to my home where my lady wife lives because maintaining the story there would be gross, telling a different story would be risky, and having another person knowing the truth about Jon at the place where everyone is bound to pry what she knows is yet another risk. IMHO, it would be best to leave Wylla at Starfall (if the estimates about Alyria are right, then she would have a job there) and get another nurse who doesn't know a shit about Jon and doesn't care. Even better, switch nurses several times so that the one who eventually arrives in Winterfell has zero idea where the baby might have hailed from.

Mutual respect on the basis of shared codes of honour is something I can see very well, too.

I love Eddard, but let's not forget his maneuvering against Cersei. He might not have been as shrewd in his analysis of what might happen after leaving Starfall with Jon and Wylla. 

I agree that the mutual respect played a very strong role in whatever went down. 

[rhoynestar]

4 minutes ago, tugela said:

At the time Edric squired for Dondarrion (who was a relative by marriage IIRC) he was not an outlaw, but had been sent on a quest by the hand to bring Clegane to justice. After that the war broke out and the group took on the role of protecting refugees fleeing from the fighting. They did not really become outlaws until Lady Stoneheart took over. Many of the brothers left the group at that point over disagreements with her methods. I am guessing Edric left them at that point.

Er no, the BWB were very clearly outlaws by the time Arya meets Edric and the band. The current king had outlawed their activities; they were simply staying true to the spirit of the previous king and rejecting the current one. They say they are outlaws themselves, and talk about the possibility of Lord Tully among others hanging them. Beric is clearly a wanted man by the crown and by default, his entire group. The Daynes were taking quite a risk letting their heir hang around as a squire.

[The Twinslayer]

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You've got the timeline wrong, Ashara's daughter would have been born well before Jon. Ashara was supposedly "dishonoured" at the tourney of Harrenhall, which took place at least 9 months before Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna, we learn in the world book that Rhaegar set out on new years day shortly after Aegon's birth to find Lyanna. This coupled with the info we have of the Tourney and Elia's previous confinement with Rhaenys tells us she was either not yet but soon to be expecting the prince at the tourney or in the very earliest stages of pregnancy. Putting the tourney in the first quarter of that year. so Ashara had her baby at around the same time Elia had hers. 

Add in the SSM telling us Dany is 8-9 months ish younger than Jon, and no way is she the Harrenhall baby. 

She didn't give birth a few weeks before supposedly throwing herself from the tower, the timeline does not work for that to be the case. Barristan is a primary witness to the events of the Tourney & after in KL, he knows Ashara fell pregnant at the Tourney. He also tells us she threw herself from the tower in grief shortly after the end of the war. grief for her dead lover, child and brother we are told.

Here is the SSM you mentioned.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040

The point of the question was to get GRRM to agree that Ashara Dayne could not be Jon's mother because the timeline was wrong.  GRRM contradicted the questioner and indicated that the timing of a Ned/Ashara hookup does work for them to be Jon's parents.  He hints that, in Storm of Swords, he plans to reveal that Ashara was a lady in waiting to Elia in KL, that Ned and Ashara met up around 9 months before Jon was born, and that the meeting didn't happen at Starfall.  The implication is that he plans to reveal that the Ned/Ashara meeting took place 8 or 9 months before the Sack of King's Landing, which would place Jon's birth around the time of the Sack.  

We can figure out the approximate time when Ashara gave birth from three sources.  First, Cat and Cersei both say that Ashara committed suicide after Ned killed Arthur Dayne and took Dawn back to Starfall (where Ashara was "waiting," according to Cat).  Second, Barristan tells us that Ashara had a stillbirth "and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after."  That strongly indicates that Ashara's "stillbirth" (if it was a stillbirth) happened right around the time Ned arrived at Starfall.  And because a stillbirth can happen less than 9 months into a pregnancy, it tells us that Ashara became pregnant as much as 9 months or as little as 3 or 4 months before Ned arrived at Starfall.  

Then the final piece of information is that Barristan thinks he knows where and when Ashara was dishonored:  he refers to "the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal."  He does not say that the dishonoring happened during the year of the false spring during Lord Whent's tournament, he just gives a location:  "at Harrenhal."  And he says that, when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty, Ashara was still "a maiden" (he says that if he had won the final tilt, he would have crowned "a young maiden not long at court...Ashara Dayne.").  So he thinks Ashara was dishonored, that it happened at Harrenhal, but that it was some time after the final day of Lord Whent's tourney.  

So if you connect all of these dots, you get the following regarding Ashara's movements: (1) she was a lady in waiting to Elia in King's Landing before the Rebellion, (2) she went to Harrenhal for Lord Whent's tourney, and (3) she was back in Starfall at the end of the war.  And if the SSM is to be believed, she met up with Ned (at Harrenhal?) some time during the war, 9 months before Jon was born.  

The only issue with believing the SSM is that GRRM obviously changed his mind about some of it.  In 1999 he said that Ashara was a handmaid to Elia in King's Landing in the early years of Elia's marriage.  But the World Book says Elia lived on Dragonstone.  And in 1999, GRRM said he was going to reveal this information in Storm of Swords.  But he changed his mind and instead we got the story Edric Dayne told to Arya.  So maybe the whole SSM (including the Ned/Ashara meeting 9 months before Jon's birth, and the part putting Jon's birth 8-9 months before Dany's, should all be discarded and we should conclude that none of it is true any more).   

 

[Masha]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think we should assume that Wylla has been in service to House Dune for years. I think we can also assume that House Dayne allowed Wylla to nurse Jon until he was weaned at Winterfell. At least that’s what I see when I color in the numbers. You might see something different, just make sure you're not adding numbers that aren't there. 

Ned decided to claim that Wylla as Jon's mother. He also allowed many (including Robert) to believe that. Its not impossible to assume that rumors would spread. However, from Cat's POV, she remembers that when she arrived at Winterfell, she found baby Jon there already installed with his wetnurse. We hear her indignation of Ned bringing the bastard to her new home, but nothing about wetnurse. 

Even if Cat didin't know about Wylla's role at first, by allowing everyone to assume that Wylla is mother of Jon, there is a strong risk that Cat will hear those rumors eventually. So, I don't see Ned even risking Cat/Wylla confrontation by bringing her to WF.